55380 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Affably wrote...

It seems like you're trying to simplify the story into neat narrative packages,

What I'm trying to do is examine Fenris significance in the story - or lack of it - based upon the expectations David Gaider created for me when he made the post detailing how DAO had an issue with companions lacking one, and how DA2, explicitly including Fenris, had corrected this.

I do not see how Fenris did, hence my questions.  

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Addai67 wrote...

Where did you get that idea?  He competed for an extremely painful ritual in order to get a boon to free his mother and sister.  The ritual wiped his memories so he was more or less brainwashed, but he describes thinking the look on Danarius' face was "priceless."  That doesn't sound like a happy slave to me.

@tankgirly:  The GIF is cute, but is the spam really necessary?  It was cute about the first twenty times I saw it...

This is what I got: He doesn't remember before the ritual. After the ritual he did not retain the perspective and knowledge to understand he was being mistreated. So I don't see why he'd be angry, and have to develop stoic behavior to repress his anger in that situation. Once he escaped he regained perspective. THEN he could be angry but would have no reason to repress it except... because it's cool?

I guessed he thought the expression was 'priceless' in hindsight.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 03:08 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Do I really have to restate the whole "the purpose a character has can be a lot of different things, it just has to exist" argument, again?

The purpose of Fenris is to be broody and hot.

[upsettingshorts]

tsunderes wrote...

Honestly, I think you're grasping at straws at this point.

If you honestly think that than you have honestly failed to follow along.  The fact I've been posting on the topic for so long means occasionally I have to explain other arguments tangentially related to my own.  My own argument is simple and has been.   Here it is.  Throw in David Gaider's post on the subject and that's all there is to it really.

Addai67 wrote...

The purpose of Fenris is to be broody and hot.

Now if I said that, that would come of as dismissive.

Granted, that is basically what I was implying when I said he was Thane.

Ryzaki wrote...

Which makes her being in the book just as pointless as Fenris.

Good thing I don't care about the literal book and even posted how I didn't, how it wasn't meant to be a literal question, and how it was rhetorical.

Stop fixating on the book. Asking why Fenris was in the book is a rhetorical device meant to highlight the same questions I've been raising from the start - by challenging people to explain his plot significance beyond his simple optional attachment to Hawke.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:14 .

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Where did you get that idea?  He competed for an extremely painful ritual in order to get a boon to free his mother and sister.  The ritual wiped his memories so he was more or less brainwashed, but he describes thinking the look on Danarius' face was "priceless."  That doesn't sound like a happy slave to me.

@tankgirly:  The GIF is cute, but is the spam really necessary?  It was cute about the first twenty times I saw it...

This is what I got: He doesn't remember before the ritual. After the ritual he did not retain the perspective and knowledge to understand he was being mistreated. So I don't see why he'd be angry, and have to develop stoic behavior to repress his anger in that situation. Once he escaped he regained perspective. THEN he could be angry but would have no reason to repress it except... because it's cool?

I guessed he thought the expression was 'priceless' in hindsight.

Because it was a habit.  And usually people just are the way they are.  They don't need a reason.  Why does Isabela flirt?  What deep-seated character motive is there for that?

[Ryzaki]

I had fun but yeah this is getting to be a bit eh to me. I see no plot significance in Merrill other than her performing the ritual (that her Keeper could've done just as well). Her personal issues don't impact Hawke unless Hawke chooses to let them. Similar to Fenris.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

I had fun but yeah this is getting to be a bit eh to me. I see no plot significance in Merrill other than her performing the ritual (that her Keeper could've done just as well).

If it's any consolation, I'd put her at second least significant and not much higher than Fenris.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The purpose of Fenris is to be broody and hot.

Now if I said that, that would come of as dismissive.

Granted, that is basically what I was implying when I said he was Thane.

Since you basically dismiss anything that's been brought up, there's no use going round about it.  I did actually think Fenris would have more of a central plot hook based on what Gaider had said- maybe he possessed some secret of the magisters that would have an impact on the Kirkwall conflict or something- but I also don't care that he's just a color commentator (as of now).  He adds a great deal to the story for me and if he doesn't for you, don't recruit him or park him in the mansion.

[silver-crescent]

Hawke didn't explore the Deep Roads alone. He didn't beat the Qunari on his own. He didn't defeat Meredith and Orsino on his own either. Who helped him? Varric, Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Aveline and Fenris.

That's reason enough to be in the book, moreso than any other involvement they might have had in the story.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Since you basically dismiss anything that's been brought up, there's no use going round about it.

Dismiss is different than challenge.

I could mention the interpretations of Fenris apart from my own that I've accepted as perfectly reasonable and also attempted to defend, but somehow I don't think you'll care.  

The funny part is alternative interpretations I've said are reasonable have ended up being assailed for entire pages, to the extent that I even had to go back and say that wasn't even my position to begin with.  

That being said, if I see "Addai67 wrote..." without the (Husband) in it, I do tend to dismiss it.  So you're right there.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:20 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Addai67 wrote...

Because it was a habit. And usually people just are the way they are. They don't need a reason. Why does Isabela flirt? What deep-seated character motive is there for that?

So... he has an inexplicable habit of stoicism that seems to me only to obfuscate the emotional damage we are supposed to take partly as evidence for the Magister's abuses--something we are supposed to put in the "anti-mage" column?

I was still wondering what this guy's problem was by act three.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That being said, if I see "Addai67 wrote..." without the (Husband) in it, I do tend to dismiss it.  So you're right there.

I'll tell my husband you're a fan.

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Because it was a habit. And usually people just are the way they are. They don't need a reason. Why does Isabela flirt? What deep-seated character motive is there for that?

So... he has an inexplicable habit of stoicism that seems to me only to obfuscate the emotional damage we are supposed to take partly as evidence for the Magister's abuses--something we are supposed to put in the "anti-mage" column?

I was still wondering what this guy's problem was by act three.

Dude has extremely painful markings on his skin.  Isn't that evidence enough of torture?

[Ryzaki]

Hey everyone doesn't connect or understand the same characters in the same way. Nothing wrong with it. I still find myself baffled and uninterested in Isabela. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[tsunderes]

Bleh..my original off(current) topic question got lost in the heated debate.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Addai67 wrote...

Dude has extremely painful markings on his skin.  Isn't that evidence enough of torture?

It should be but I can't get past the fact that they're pretty.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hey everyone doesn't connect or understand
the same characters in the same way. Nothing wrong with it. I still
find myself baffled and uninterested in Isabela. 

It's actually an interesting comparison. If you care about Fenris, that's great - his role is well established as someone your Hawke cares about. If you care about Isabela, that's great - the Qunari conflict becomes even more compelling because she's at the center of it.

The problem as I see it is if you don't care about Isabela, she still causes the Qunari problem - even if your Hawke never met her. If you don't care about or don't recruit Fenris, what even happens to him? Does it matter to anyone other than Fenris and Danarius?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[tsunderes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hey everyone doesn't connect or understand
the same characters in the same way. Nothing wrong with it. I still
find myself baffled and uninterested in Isabela. 

It's actually an interesting comparison. If you care about Fenris, that's great - his role is well established as someone your Hawke cares about. If you care about Isabela, that's great - the Qunari conflict becomes even more compelling because she's at the center of it.

The problem as I see it is if you don't care about Isabela, she still causes the Qunari problem - even if your Hawke never met her. If you don't care about or don't recruit Fenris, what even happens to him? Does it matter to anyone other than Fenris and Danarius?

Again, the same can be said for Merril and Aveline.

[Kikuyoshi]

Holy jumping pages batman! x.x; I fear what asking what's been going on will bring up xD

[mellifera]

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

Modifié par yukidama, 21 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[upsettingshorts]

tsunderes wrote...

Again, the same can be said for Merril and Aveline.

I'll play along.  Obviously, you know I disagree, but here's why my position wouldn't change:

If Fenris and two other characters have the exact same lack-of-plot-significance issues than my disappointed with David Gaider saying that such problems would not be repeated in Dragon Age 2 just got multipled by 3.

But because I don't agree, I'm only posting this in the Fenris thread.  If I did, I'd be in all three threads.  Does that make sense?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[tsunderes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tsunderes wrote...

Again, the same can be said for Merril and Aveline.

I'll play along.  Obviously, you know I disagree, but here's why my position wouldn't change:

If Fenris and two other characters have the exact same lack-of-plot-significance issues than my issues with David Gaider saying that such problems would not be repeated in Dragon Age 2 just got multipled by 3.

But because I don't agree, I'm only posting this in the Fenris thread.  If I did, I'd be in all three threads.  Does that make sense?

So then how about we just agree that Gaider was wrong..or lied, about characters and their importance to the central plot (other than being accomplaces)

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

[upsettingshorts]

tsunderes wrote...

So then how about we just agree that Gaider was wrong..or lied, about characters and their importance to the central plot (other than being accomplaces)

I wouldn't go quite that far, perhaps I'm just missing something, or DG meant something other than I assumed by saying they'd have a role in the story.  

I'm not one to say people with Bioware tags lie and mislead, quite the opposite.  I tend to err on the side of misunderstanding.  

[Lady Jess]

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

Maker NOOOOOOOO!!!