55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's actually an interesting comparison. If you care about Fenris, that's great - his role is well established as someone your Hawke cares about. If you care about Isabela, that's great - the Qunari conflict becomes even more compelling because she's at the center of it.  

The problem as I see it is if you don't care about Isabela, she still causes the Qunari problem - even if your Hawke never met her. If you don't care about or don't recruit Fenris, what even happens to him? Does it matter to anyone other than Fenris and Danarius?

Actually no she didn't. To my Hawke, Peatrice and her crowd of morons and the Arishok caused the Qunari problem. The Arsikhok whining about some lost relic didn't matter. (My first playthrough I don't believe I recruited Isabela). She has no impact whatsoever on me in that situation. 

As for Fenris no it doesn't matter to anyone but him. He has no impact at all if he's gone. Isabela's impact is that a question can't be answered. Other than that the Qunari attack of their own free will, she might be why they're there in the first place but she didn't cause the attack. The corruption of Kirkwall did that. 

[tsunderes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tsunderes wrote...

So then how about we just agree that Gaider was wrong..or lied, about characters and their importance to the central plot (other than being accomplaces)

I wouldn't go quite that far, perhaps I'm just missing something, or DG meant something other than I assumed by saying they'd have a role in the story.  

I'm not one to say people with Bioware tags lie and mislead, quite the opposite.  I tend to err on the side of misunderstanding.  

I was being a bit dramatic when I wrote my previous comment, but yes, missunderstanding. Let's agree on that.

[Evindell]

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

You know how angry that would make people? It wouldn't be pretty...


I actually find it highly ironic that my entire game he's hated mages, yet he is both a friend and a lover of a mage. It makes me laugh

[tsunderes]

Evindell wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

You know how angry that would make people? It wouldn't be pretty...


I actually find it highly ironic that my entire game he's hated mages, yet he is both a friend and a lover of a mage. It makes me laugh

For my next playthrough I want to play a bloodmage, and I've been wracking my brain on how to justify a romance with Fenris (...again *cough*) I have no idea how I'd canonly explain it to myself.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually no she didn't. To my Hawke, Peatrice and her crowd of morons and the Arishok caused the Qunari problem. The Arsikhok whining about some lost relic didn't matter. (My first playthrough I don't believe I recruited Isabela). She has no impact whatsoever on me in that situation.

Your Hawke's particular take on the situation isn't particularly relevant.  Isabela does cause the situation.  I'm not going to consider every possible playthrough and approach in my criticism because it's not productive.  

The Arishok says why he is there.  He says why he cannot leave.  That he eventually got fed up with Kirkwall is a side effect of the fact he was there for years stewing in his own anger and frustration because of what Isabela did.  Sister Petrice and her ilk bothered the Arishok only so much as symptoms of a disease that already irritated him on a fundamental level anyway.

The reason every particular interpretation isn't relevant is because DA2 is framed as a telling of historical events.  That the characters in your particular telling of DA2 lacked the perspective - seeing as they never met/didnt recruit Isabela - to know the truth of Isabela's actions doesn't make the fact that she was complicit in them no longer a reality.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Your Hawke's particular take on the situation isn't particularly relevant.  Isabela does cause the situation.  I'm not going to consider every possible playthrough and approach in my criticism because it's not productive.  

The Arishok says why he is there.  He says why he cannot leave.  That he eventually got fed up with Kirkwall is a side effect of the fact he was there for years stewing in his own anger and frustration because of what Isabela did.  Sister Petrice and her ilk bothered the Arishok only so much as symptoms of a disease that already irritated him on a fundamental level anyway.

The reason every particular interpretation isn't relevant is because DA2 is framed as a telling of historical events.  That the characters in your particular telling of DA2 lacked the perspective - seeing as they never met/didnt recruit Isabela - to know the truth of Isabela's actions doesn't make the fact that she was complicit in them no longer a reality.  

Okay then. 

[Inzhuna]

Evindell wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

You know how angry that would make people? It wouldn't be pretty...


I actually find it highly ironic that my entire game he's hated mages, yet he is both a friend and a lover of a mage. It makes me laugh

*hops in*

Actually, the fact that Fenris does not seem to be bothered by befriending/ sleeping with a mage makes me think that he doesn't actually hate mages as much as he claims to. To me, because he has no memories of who he was, his hatred of mages has become a centre of his identity. He is afraid to let go of his hatred because he does not have anything else to build his identity on, he doesn't know what will be left of him if he lets go of this hatred.

[lizzbee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Which brings me to the point, why is Fenris in that book?

Why was Leliana in Origins?  I figure Fenris is a "sleeper" character.

I get that Origins had characters like that.  When David Gaider acknowledges it, says that DA2 wants to improve upon that and then explicitly states that Fenris does not suffer from this issue... then saying he is like Leliana in any way is implicitly agreeing with why I find the lack of a clear role for Fenris so disappointing given his statements in the first place.

I was addressing another poster.

Anyway, what matters to me is that Fenris adds replay value for me.  Maker knows I don't play DA2 for the combat, or the story

Modifié par lizzbee, 21 avril 2011 - 03:54 .

[ejoslin]

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

Oh no.  I like rivalmancing him with a mage.  Makes sense that he's fighting it the entire way.  And he's not really anti-mage (no really, read beyond this sentence).  He actually doesn't think all mages are evil or bad or guilty of anything.  His point is all it takes is one weak mage to turn to blood magic or become possessed to do far more damage than any non-mage could by far.  And also, since mages are so powerful, given freedom, the weak and the corrupt will rule because, well, they can and nothing can stop them.

He believes a mage Hawke is strong and won't fall to temptation.  Whether that's true or not is another issue, but it's an issue that goes beyond Fenris.  Anders also hates blood mages but will be with a blood mage.  

[Evindell]

tsunderes wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

You know how angry that would make people? It wouldn't be pretty...


I actually find it highly ironic that my entire game he's hated mages, yet he is both a friend and a lover of a mage. It makes me laugh

For my next playthrough I want to play a bloodmage, and I've been wracking my brain on how to justify a romance with Fenris (...again *cough*) I have no idea how I'd canonly explain it to myself.

Umm...make it a secret? lol

I only chose Force Mage for my specialization. I wanted the passive ability that gave me the massive fortitude skill, and since my mage was altogether AGAINST blood magic of any kind it wouldn't make sense for her to be a blood mage. I also didn't do Spirit Healer because my mage was all about the offense. I gave Anders and Merrill other talents, but Hawke was all about setting **** on fire, so I didn't waste any points on Spirit Healer. Just Force Mage for me.

[tsunderes]

Evindell wrote...

tsunderes wrote...

Evindell wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

That would have been interesting :0

You know how angry that would make people? It wouldn't be pretty...


I actually find it highly ironic that my entire game he's hated mages, yet he is both a friend and a lover of a mage. It makes me laugh

For my next playthrough I want to play a bloodmage, and I've been wracking my brain on how to justify a romance with Fenris (...again *cough*) I have no idea how I'd canonly explain it to myself.

Umm...make it a secret? lol

I only chose Force Mage for my specialization. I wanted the passive ability that gave me the massive fortitude skill, and since my mage was altogether AGAINST blood magic of any kind it wouldn't make sense for her to be a blood mage. I also didn't do Spirit Healer because my mage was all about the offense. I gave Anders and Merrill other talents, but Hawke was all about setting **** on fire, so I didn't waste any points on Spirit Healer. Just Force Mage for me.

Yeah my last mage was a spirit healer/defence/buffer who was against blood magic and for the circle (but not for how it was being run in kirkwall) which is why i want to play bloodmage next round since i've done elemental/offence mage too ) i just dont know how to explain the whys and hows of how she came to be one or how to integrate it properly into hawkes story.

[tankgirly]

Astrobats Ritual.

*Think might need more popcorn*

[Inzhuna]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh no.  I like rivalmancing him with a mage.  Makes sense that he's fighting it the entire way.  And he's not really anti-mage (no really, read beyond this sentence).  He actually doesn't think all mages are evil or bad or guilty of anything.  His point is all it takes is one weak mage to turn to blood magic or become possessed to do far more damage than any non-mage could by far.  And also, since mages are so powerful, given freedom, the weak and the corrupt will rule because, well, they can and nothing can stop them.

He believes a mage Hawke is strong and won't fall to temptation.  Whether that's true or not is another issue, but it's an issue that goes beyond Fenris.  Anders also hates blood mages but will be with a blood mage.  

Yeah, this also.

I've seen a lot of people on BSN and elsewhere call Fenris a hypocrite because he falls to a demon's templation in the Fade. But it actually proves Fenris' entire point. Anyone can fall to temptation, and the fact is that when mages do, it can have devastating consequences.

[mellifera]

ejoslin wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

Oh no.  I like rivalmancing him with a mage.  Makes sense that he's fighting it the entire way.  And he's not really anti-mage (no really, read beyond this sentence).  He actually doesn't think all mages are evil or bad or guilty of anything.  His point is all it takes is one weak mage to turn to blood magic or become possessed to do far more damage than any non-mage could by far.  And also, since mages are so powerful, given freedom, the weak and the corrupt will rule because, well, they can and nothing can stop them.

He believes a mage Hawke is strong and won't fall to temptation.  Whether that's true or not is another issue, but it's an issue that goes beyond Fenris.  Anders also hates blood mages but will be with a blood mage.  

There SHOULD be major drama in regards to this and there just... isn't. I don't really see how he fights it any more than he fights being with Hawke in general.

I don't really like Anders with a blood mage either but Anders is also a very desperate man so it is easier to handwave.

[Ryzaki]

How when he dumps you for doing a deal with a demon?

Surely bloodmagic is worse than that.

Edit: Agreed on Fenris not hating mages. He doesn't. He just thinks they're dangerous. He shows Bethany nowhere near enough vitriol to count as hating mages. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'm not buying the "Fenris doesn't hate mages" argument for an instant.  I'd even go so far as to say my position on this issue is much closer to a dismissal than a challenge.

If you want my reason why, PM me, there's absolutely no way I'm posting my counterargument in a public forum likely to have as many people who miss the point in their rage at such a parallel being drawn as understand what I mean.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 04:08 .

[ejoslin]

yukidama wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I think a good way to show Fenris' anti-mage stance without breaking his character is him refusing to enter relationships or sleep with mage Hawke (even/especially on the rival path).

Oh no.  I like rivalmancing him with a mage.  Makes sense that he's fighting it the entire way.  And he's not really anti-mage (no really, read beyond this sentence).  He actually doesn't think all mages are evil or bad or guilty of anything.  His point is all it takes is one weak mage to turn to blood magic or become possessed to do far more damage than any non-mage could by far.  And also, since mages are so powerful, given freedom, the weak and the corrupt will rule because, well, they can and nothing can stop them.

He believes a mage Hawke is strong and won't fall to temptation.  Whether that's true or not is another issue, but it's an issue that goes beyond Fenris.  Anders also hates blood mages but will be with a blood mage.  

There SHOULD be major drama in regards to this and there just... isn't. I don't really see how he fights it any more than he fights being with Hawke in general.

I don't really like Anders with a blood mage either but Anders is also a very desperate man so it is easier to handwave.

But again, he doesn't think all or even most mages are corrupt.  It's just the corrupt ones are so powerful that they must be contained as you do not know which ones are weak.  And it's not like Merrill or Anders is proving him differently.

He thinks Hawke is strong.  So he would not have an issue with mage!Hawke.

And no, there is very little different dialog for mage!Hawke than rogue or warrior Hawke.  I was just saying it fit the story, especially that time between act 2 and 3.

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm not buying the "Fenris doesn't hate mages" argument for an instant.  I'd even go so far as to say my position on this issue is much closer to a dismissal than a challenge.

If you want my reason why, PM me, there's absolutely no way I'm posting my counterargument in a public forum likely to have as many people who miss the point in their rage at such a parallel being drawn as understand what I mean.

Oh, but that's half the fun

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

How when he dumps you for doing a deal with a demon?

Surely bloodmagic is worse than that.

Edit: Agreed on Fenris not hating mages. He doesn't. He just thinks they're dangerous. He shows Bethany nowhere near enough vitriol to count as hating mages. 

Yep, Anders believes that you learn blood magic by making a deal with a demon if his banters are to be believed.  And I made a deal with Torpor once while at the flirting stage with Anders.  Amazing breakup conversation.

[mellifera]

ejoslin wrote...

But again, he doesn't think all or even most mages are corrupt.  It's just the corrupt ones are so powerful that they must be contained as you do not know which ones are weak.  And it's not like Merrill or Anders is proving him differently.

He thinks Hawke is strong.  So he would not have an issue with mage!Hawke.

And no, there is very little different dialog for mage!Hawke than rogue or warrior Hawke.  I was just saying it fit the story, especially that time between act 2 and 3.

And that makes him boring to me, on top of everything else that makes him boring/confusing, which is why I said that it would have made him more interesting if he had refused to get together with a mage.

Modifié par yukidama, 21 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[ejoslin]

yukidama wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

But again, he doesn't think all or even most mages are corrupt.  It's just the corrupt ones are so powerful that they must be contained as you do not know which ones are weak.  And it's not like Merrill or Anders is proving him differently.

He thinks Hawke is strong.  So he would not have an issue with mage!Hawke.

And no, there is very little different dialog for mage!Hawke than rogue or warrior Hawke.  I was just saying it fit the story, especially that time between act 2 and 3.

And that makes him boring to me, on top of everything else that makes him boring/confusing.

Not everyone likes all the LIs for sure.  Nothing wrong with that at all. 

[Helen0rz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm not buying the "Fenris doesn't hate mages" argument for an instant.  I'd even go so far as to say my position on this issue is much closer to a dismissal than a challenge.

If you want my reason why, PM me, there's absolutely no way I'm posting my counterargument in a public forum likely to have as many people who miss the point in their rage at such a parallel being drawn as understand what I mean.

hmm.

I think he hates all mages, or at least he already has a very negative opinion about mages. If you're an mage, he's got this judgement again you (even though you haven't done a thing to offend him, other than being a mage) even before getting to know you and that's based on his experience with mages alone. It's up to you to change his mind about you, not the mages. What you do as a mage will not change how he feels toward mages, it'll only get you on his good side. If his hatred can be easily erased or cast aside...that's not convincing to me.

I'd like to think that if you play as mage!Hawke, he's only nice to you because you helped him but at the same time he's also anticipating you turning to blood magic at any given moment

It's kinda crappy but that's apart of his 'characteristics', no?

[tsunderes]

Ryzaki wrote...

How when he dumps you for doing a deal with a demon?

Surely bloodmagic is worse than that.

Edit: Agreed on Fenris not hating mages. He doesn't. He just thinks they're dangerous. He shows Bethany nowhere near enough vitriol to count as hating mages. 

He does? The one in the fade? I thought only anders did that.

[Ryzaki]

tsunderes wrote...
He does? The one in the fade? I thought only anders did that.

I was talking about Anders. 

[lizzbee]

Ryzaki wrote...

tsunderes wrote...
He does? The one in the fade? I thought only anders did that.

I was talking about Anders. 

That's interesting-- I didn't know that.  I'm surprised I never stumbled into that in my *extremely* borked FemHawke attempted rivalmance with him.  Then again, I always feel sorry for Feynriel, so I just can't do it.