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[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually the whole rivalry dialogue with Anders suggests he's trying to avert a war. He sounds quite clear headed.

He... begs you to kill him. His spirit is completely broken at that point. The screaming, crying, turning over desks, cannot-formulate-a-coherent-sentence psychopathic break is not the only kind of mental breakdown. The entire rivalry path leads up to that point and the subtletyuwehuhgbfdh

But this isn't the Anders thread and we shouldn't be arguing about this here :innocent:

Let's just say I disagree. I don't see a breakdown and yes I know you don't have to do that to have a mental breakdown. I'm just not seeing it in that scene. I see it in the beginning but the ending to me appears like he's picking up the pieces. 

And yeah we shouldn't.   

Edit: Anyone who wants to rivalmance Anders I suggest you wait until the next patch. You can't get that lovely dialogue at the moment because of evil bugs. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[tankgirly]

Astrobats Ritual

[SurrealSadi]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually the whole rivalry dialogue with Anders suggests he's trying to avert a war. He sounds quite clear headed.

He... begs you to kill him. His spirit is completely broken at that point. The screaming, crying, turning over desks, cannot-formulate-a-coherent-sentence psychopathic break is not the only kind of mental breakdown. The entire rivalry path leads up to that point and the subtletyuwehuhgbfdh

But this isn't the Anders thread and we shouldn't be arguing about this here :innocent:

Let's just say I disagree. I don't see a breakdown and yes I know you don't have to do that to have a mental breakdown. I'm just not seeing it in that scene. I see it in the beginning but the ending to me appears like he's picking up the pieces. 

And yeah we shouldn't.   

Edit: Anyone who wants to rivalmance Anders I suggest you wait until the next patch. You can't get that lovely dialogue at the moment because of evil bugs. 

Thank you for the warning!

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

Understood.  Different... uh, strokes (I'm going to delete the part about wanking, for bad association- lol).  One thing I appreciated about both Zevran and Fenris was that they had been through hell, and they had major issues, but are still mature,  grounded (to an extent) pixel people.  I'm not sure I could carry out a romance story line with either of them otherwise.  So, your story loss is my gain, I guess. 

I don't mind that in theory at all. I adored Zevran precisely for those reasons, but everything about his personality and his past fit into that mold. He had his issues, but he was never resentful enough of his life to have it really tear him up. He embraced it and was generally a jolly good fellow plus bonus intimacy problems.

With Fenris, it just kind of feels like putting a square peg in a round hole. His stoicism and being relatively not bat**** insane just doesn't seem to fit over what he basically describes as a life of mentally debilitating torment. If he were just like "I was a slave once, it sucked, I'm over it, but I still want to skull**** Danarius (p.s. i have anger issues)" I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

[Atrilial]

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Understood.  Different... uh, strokes (I'm going to delete the part about wanking, for bad association- lol).  One thing I appreciated about both Zevran and Fenris was that they had been through hell, and they had major issues, but are still mature,  grounded (to an extent) pixel people.  I'm not sure I could carry out a romance story line with either of them otherwise.  So, your story loss is my gain, I guess. 

I don't mind that in theory at all. I adored Zevran precisely for those reasons, but everything about his personality and his past fit into that mold. He had his issues, but he was never resentful enough of his life to have it really tear him up. He embraced it and was generally a jolly good fellow plus bonus intimacy problems.

With Fenris, it just kind of feels like putting a square peg in a round hole. His stoicism and being relatively not bat**** insane just doesn't seem to fit over what he basically describes as a life of mentally debilitating torment. If he were just like "I was a slave once, it sucked, I'm over it, but I still want to skull**** Danarius (p.s. i have anger issues)" I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

While I can kind of see your point, I gotta agree with Addai on this.  I love that he is fairly mature and significantly less drama-y.  And as far as it fitting his personailty and situation, I can only say that I think people aren't nearly as easy to predict as all that.  In real life people frequently respond outside how they might be expected to given their circumstances.  There are just way to many variables to predict the outcome.  Sure, guesstimates can be generally accurate, but there are always those who fall outside the normal.  I dunno.  I'm not explaining this as well as I'd hoped, and you may just see it as a cop-out answer.

[ipgd]

Atrilial wrote...

While I can kind of see your point, I gotta agree with Addai on this.  I love that he is fairly mature and significantly less drama-y.  And as far as it fitting his personailty and situation, I can only say that I think people aren't nearly as easy to predict as all that.  In real life people frequently respond outside how they might be expected to given their circumstances.  There are just way to many variables to predict the outcome.  Sure, guesstimates can be generally accurate, but there are always those who fall outside the normal.  I dunno.  I'm not explaining this as well as I'd hoped, and you may just see it as a cop-out answer.

I'm not saying he couldn't be "well adjusted" after his experiences, just that his actions don't seem to jive with how he himself seems to perceive it. When he talks about it, he makes it sound like it's something he thinks was horrible, true torment, that it consumes his life and he's constantly suffering because of it, etc. etc. -- but the way he acts and carries himself socially don't reflect that. Like he's... dramatizing its effects on him when he talks about it. Which I guess is possible, but was that really the writer's intent?

Again, if his dialogue about his life as a slave reflected his actual actions and mannerisms, and enforced an idea that he was troubled-but-coping, I'd be less confused.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

While we're picking apart Fenris, can someone explain this dialogue to me?

* Aveline: Are you safe, Fenris?
* Fenris: No.
* Aveline: You know, some guards give people the opportunity to lie if it will keep the peace.
* Fenris: You can see what I am. Lie to yourself if you must.

Every time I hear it my brain spins. Safe how? Lie about what? What is he? He just looks like a weird elf. Is he supposed to be threatening looking? Is he OBVIOUSLY a runaway slave or something, and that is somehow so shocking that she must convince herself otherwise?

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 07:01 .

[DeaHamlet]

Pseudocognition wrote...

While we're picking apart Fenris, can someone explain this dialogue to me?

* Aveline: Are you safe, Fenris?
* Fenris: No.
* Aveline: You know, some guards give people the opportunity to lie if it will keep the peace.
* Fenris: You can see what I am. Lie to yourself if you must.

Every time I hear it my brain spins. Safe how? Lie about what? What is he? He just looks like a weird elf. Is he supposed to be threatening looking? Is he OBVIOUSLY a runaway slave or something, and that is somehow so shocking that she must convince herself otherwise?

He has the ability to kill.  He also isn't squimish about torturing or killing people who he thinks deserve it.  On many a quest Fenris will torture people with his fist or kill them (either because he wants to or at Hawke's request).  
He is not safe.  He is an instrument of death.  He won't toe the line because the law or the guard say so.  He will do what he wants or needs to do.
He basically tells Aveline that he will do what he must do and that may not fit neatly into her laws and her expectations.
That's what I see in that anyway.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

DeaHamlet wrote...

He has the ability to kill.  He also isn't squimish about torturing or killing people who he thinks deserve it.  On many a quest Fenris will torture people with his fist or kill them (either because he wants to or at Hawke's request).  
He is not safe.  He is an instrument of death.  He won't toe the line because the law or the guard say so.  He will do what he wants or needs to do.
He basically tells Aveline that he will do what he must do and that may not fit neatly into her laws and her expectations.
That's what I see in that anyway.

But is that so apparent that he'd be in a situation where the guards would be asking him specifically ARE YOU AN INSTRUMENT OF DEATH and unless he said NO all hell would break loose? Okay, that's deliberately obtuse, but the rest of the party is quite capable of performing spectacular feats of murder in slightly more controversial ways (see Merrill) so... I'm not buying it.

[lizzbee]

ipgd wrote...
I'm not saying he couldn't be "well adjusted" after his experiences, just that his actions don't seem to jive with how he himself seems to perceive it. When he talks about it, he makes it sound like it's something he thinks was horrible, true torment, that it consumes his life and he's constantly suffering because of it, etc. etc. -- but the way he acts and carries himself socially don't reflect that. Like he's... dramatizing its effects on him when he talks about it. Which I guess is possible, but was that really the writer's intent?

Again, if his dialogue about his life as a slave reflected his actual actions and mannerisms, and enforced an idea that he was troubled-but-coping, I'd be less confused.

Here's the difference between introversion and extraversion.  Fenris strikes me as being your classic introvert.  Most of his suffering and his world is internal, and he keeps his emotions close rather than letting the entire world know how he suffers a la Anders. <--- I kind of wanted to put that last bolded part in ALL CAPS, but it looked a little loud.  So when his world crumbles, or something enrages him, he externalizes only part of it, while the rest of it eats away at the very core of him.

Modifié par lizzbee, 21 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Atrilial]

ipgd wrote...

Atrilial wrote...

While I can kind of see your point, I gotta agree with Addai on this.  I love that he is fairly mature and significantly less drama-y.  And as far as it fitting his personailty and situation, I can only say that I think people aren't nearly as easy to predict as all that.  In real life people frequently respond outside how they might be expected to given their circumstances.  There are just way to many variables to predict the outcome.  Sure, guesstimates can be generally accurate, but there are always those who fall outside the normal.  I dunno.  I'm not explaining this as well as I'd hoped, and you may just see it as a cop-out answer.

I'm not saying he couldn't be "well adjusted" after his experiences, just that his actions don't seem to jive with how he himself seems to perceive it. When he talks about it, he makes it sound like it's something he thinks was horrible, true torment, that it consumes his life and he's constantly suffering because of it, etc. etc. -- but the way he acts and carries himself socially don't reflect that. Like he's... dramatizing its effects on him when he talks about it. Which I guess is possible, but was that really the writer's intent?

Again, if his dialogue about his life as a slave reflected his actual actions and mannerisms, and enforced an idea that he was troubled-but-coping, I'd be less confused.

I guess I'm just not seeing the disconnect.  Maybe I'm too tired.  Nothing he says seems to particularly go against his personality.  Could you explain more what you feel doesn't match up?

Modifié par Atrilial, 21 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[tankgirly]

Just a quick reminder the new prompt will be up in about two hours.

[Atrilial]

Oh! Prompt! Maybe I'll actually write something this time. Hmmm...

[tsunderes]

Addai67 wrote...
 "I was a slave once, it sucked, I'm over it, but I still want to skull**** Danarius (p.s. i have anger issues)" I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

oohohoho i laughed at that.

Modifié par tsunderes, 21 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[tankgirly]

by tutchangers

[tankgirly]

Right, new prompt time:

This Week's Theme:

1. What if.
2. Trap.
3. Mabari.
4. Return.
5. Sunset.



Time Frame : One Week

Rule: Please put Prompt: (theme name) in bold at the front of your comment for easy spotting.

Have fun

Modifié par tankgirly, 21 avril 2011 - 10:03 .

[Hekateras]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Where did you get that idea?  He competed for an extremely painful ritual in order to get a boon to free his mother and sister.  The ritual wiped his memories so he was more or less brainwashed, but he describes thinking the look on Danarius' face was "priceless."  That doesn't sound like a happy slave to me.

@tankgirly:  The GIF is cute, but is the spam really necessary?  It was cute about the first twenty times I saw it...

This is what I got: He doesn't remember before the ritual. After the ritual he did not retain the perspective and knowledge to understand he was being mistreated. So I don't see why he'd be angry, and have to develop stoic behavior to repress his anger in that situation. Once he escaped he regained perspective. THEN he could be angry but would have no reason to repress it except... because it's cool?

I guessed he thought the expression was 'priceless' in hindsight.

A slave has no use for stoicism and locking away emotions? Really?

Look, just please stop and imagine his mindset as a slave for a moment. Really imagine. Here's Danarius punishing him with a beating for something. Does he feel bad about it? Undoubtedly. Does he feel defiant about it? No, because he's been conditioned to accept that the master is right, so therefore he must deserve the punishment, and kick himself for displeasing his master. Even if his master isn't right, he'd still kick himself for being careless and making his master angry. And really, you think he'd have no use for stoicism during beatings, or when being drained of blood for an experiment of some sort, or when half-dead from defending his master from assailants? You think that in the constant mindset of inescapable despair the slaves are kept (rememeber the giant statues?), there would be no negative emotions to repress? Really? <_<

Not thinking of escape or being accepting of his situation does NOT mean he wasn't an unhappy slave.

And honestly, this nitpicking at his mannerisms feels a bit silly. Why does anyone act stoically, or doesn't? Why do people who haven't gone through horrible stuff still sometimes act stoically? It's just the kind of behaviour that comes naturally or feels more comfortable to him. Personalities are formed in unpredictable ways - can you trace every quality of your personality back to some logical reason?

I also see nothing inconsistent with him locking up emotions but going on the occasional dramatised rant about it now and then. It fits perfectly with someone who's generally introverted and doesn't open up to people much, while being so affection-starved and sympathy-starved that he still wants to give people a means to understand him, but without losing face. He draws comfort from the idea of being strong and unshakable, as shown in his numerous "Don't pity me" moments, but still longs for comfort too much not to leave an opening.

It's conflicted and contradictory and perfectly, breathtakingly, intricately realistic. It's the classic introvert's response to pain - needing comfort, acting like they don't, but still leaving openings for comfort. Maybe it takes being introverted yourself to really understand - which I certainly am.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 10:45 .

[lizzbee]

@ Hekateras

Poor Fenris can't catch a break. He's too emo. No, he's not emo enough. He's too obsessed with his status as a slave. He's not slavish and broken enough. He hates mages, the damned hypocrite! No, he doesn't hate mages enough-- he should be launching endless mage pogroms instead! He's so angry and bitter. No, he's too calm!

Eesh, poor elf.

[Atrilial]

lizzbee wrote...

@ Hekateras

Poor Fenris can't catch a break. He's too emo. No, he's not emo enough. He's too obsessed with his status as a slave. He's not slavish and broken enough. He hates mages, the damned hypocrite! No, he doesn't hate mages enough-- he should be launching endless mage pogroms instead! He's so angry and bitter. No, he's too calm!

Eesh, poor elf.

Rofl.   Right?!  At least he brings out pretty strong opinions in people one way or another.  That's gotta mean something, right?

[lizzbee]

Atrilial wrote...

Rofl.   Right?!  At least he brings out pretty strong opinions in people one way or another.  That's gotta mean something, right?

Well, if conventional writing wisdom holds, it means he's a brilliantly written character.  I think I can live with that

[songsmith2003]

yukidama wrote...

I don't dislike him, I even have a character who romanced him (did the whole three year blue balls thing too!). I just wish there were more conflict because that would make him more interesting. There's not really much to dislike as much as be bored by.

I just want more... something. Anything. As it stands he's just stagnant. It seems that what I want is exactly what the Fenris fans don't, and I am fine with that. I just wish that the limited resources hadn't created situations where there isn't any more conflict than usual where there should have been. But romances are optional and they're not going to cut portions of content (or add a lot more) based on the class a player chooses.

Actually, it would have been interesting if that three year hiatus had been caused in part because Hawke is a mage or was sympathetic to them. Not sure what the excuse would be for a pro Circle, pro templar Hawke. It would have at least shown Fenris fighting against himself and his beliefs...and maybe given you a few more dialogue scenes.

[Tanathir]

Okay, wow.  15+ pages to read through like a good forum-goer.

First.  Could we PLEASE stop with the Tangled gif?

I agree with the assessment that Fenris is an introvert, and that he apparently can't be enough or too little of anything for fans.  He is not emo but wait he is, he is not damaged but oh he so is, he is emotional no he's stoic.

Fenris.  Is.  Not.  A Mary Sue character.  I suggest more Google and research on what that archetype actually means.

Does Fenris NEED a purpose?  Does he have to satisfy your (general you here, not any specific person) particular desire for how you think he should be essential to the plot?  David Gaider may be a god of sorts, but he is not a mind reader.  Fenris is a very well written character.  That in itself makes him one of my favorites.  I mean honestly, Sebastian is downloaded content, he's not strictly essential either.

I am angry at EA and whoever else for rushing the game.  Who knows what we've missed because of corporate greed pushing it to get released for sale?  It certainly looks like a lot had to be left out which would satisfy fan questions.

Illiteracy.  Gah.  I have a teaching degree, I work in education, and let me tell you, some of the most ignorant, clueless, narrow-minded people I've known have been literate.  Literacy DOES NOT equal intelligence.  Illiteracy DOES NOT equal unintelligent.  It's perfectly reasonable for Fenris to be well-spoken and understand a lot and not know how to read.

[Hekateras]

Tanathir, I could kiss you, but the forum rules probably forbid it.

+1, and then over nine thousand.

[Inzhuna]

@Hekateras Loved your post and analysis. +n amounts of approval.
*can't contribute in a coherent way <= sleep deprivation*

[tankgirly]

@Tanathir, don't want to see the gif anymore, I see.
Sure, it is done.