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[nebezial]

oh wow i have been lurking here for about a week, yesterday i went to sleep and found 20 new pages to this thread O_O
i wanted to post my own opinion here but Tanathir got ahead of me.

anyway im new here, nice to meet you all.

[lizzbee]

Welcome to the madness, nebezial!

[DarthMael]

I've been following the discussion for quite some time, and the only thing I can say is that if someone's looking for Mary Sue/Gary Stu in DA2, IMO they should look no further then Hawke. The default Hawkes are even helpfully named Marian and Garrett, so...

P.S.: Just kidding

Modifié par DarthMael, 21 avril 2011 - 12:22 .

[MelRedux]

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

[MelRedux]

DarthMael wrote...

I've been following the discussion for quite some time, and the only thing I can say is that if someone's looking for Mary Sue/Gary Stu in DA2, IMO they should look no further then Hawke. The default Hawkes are even helpfully named Marian and Garrett, so...

P.S.: Just kidding

HAHAHA!  Duh, I'm so slow.  I never realized that before.  I wouldn't doubt that the devs did that on purpose.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If it were me making demands on how to improve Fenris, I'd start with doing a better job integrating him into the actual plot of the game, not improving my ability to ogle his digital nakedness.

Somewhat late to the discussion but, I agree with this. 

I like Fenris and he's one of my favorites in the game simply due to the fact that we finally get a real glance into the Tevinter Imperium. I've always been drawn to stoic characters so I've been curious about him long before the game came out. But I do wish that he was more tied to the main plot of the game in some way. I think it's great to have a opposite character from the mages, who both are kind of extreme in this game, to show of the other side and be a living example of how dangerous magic can be. Granted, I like all of the new followers with one exception so I might cling to them more than I did with the followers from DAO, where I had a problem to connect with most of them. They were all very likable but I just didn't feel anything "deeper" or special for them with the exception of Sten and the secret companion.

Ignoring all of that, I find it very interesting to see how Fenris deals with life and how he slowly is freeing himself from his past and that makes him an interesting character for me. 

[Inzhuna]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

Yeah, I agree. Even though I rationalised to myself how to justify it, there still should have been at least ONE dialogue about this.

The other thing that bugs me is the memories thing. Fenris breaks up with you over it, but when you get back together, no mention of it whatsoever. Now, I am of opinion that there was a lot more going in his head than just memories when he ran away from Hawke, and that was just the most convenient excuse, but they still should have talked about it.

[Hekateras]

Mel_Redux wrote...

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation,
there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris
still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is
everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

Here's where I call Unreliable Narrator. What we see in the game is probably warped by how Varric sees it, and he certainly seems like the type to make Hawke out to be a Mary Sue. Remember what he says when you give him his signet ring? "Dammit, Hawke, this sounds like one of the crazy things I'd make up about you." XD

Alternately, what we see in the game is Varric's interpretation limited by what he knows from stealing glances at Hawke's journal. If Hawke doesn't bother to jot down "Fenris ****ed at me about my mageness again" every time it happens, then it doesn't happen. XD

Yeah, that's the fluff that helps me come to terms with it. Undoubtedly the real reason is that they couldn't be bothered (and didn't consider it fair) to add a whole new lot of content just for one class.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[Inzhuna]

Really, if you constantly keep in mind the unreliability of Varric as the narrator, a LOT of things make much more sense.

[Hekateras]

Inzhuna wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

Yeah, I agree. Even though I rationalised to myself how to justify it, there still should have been at least ONE dialogue about this.

The other thing that bugs me is the memories thing. Fenris breaks up with you over it, but when you get back together, no mention of it whatsoever. Now, I am of opinion that there was a lot more going in his head than just memories when he ran away from Hawke, and that was just the most convenient excuse, but they still should have talked about it.

It's not like it's completely glossed ver. He explains that he was a coward - I take it to mean that, back at the time, his identity issue was shaky enough that the prospect of dealing with his memories just terrified him. Three years later, he's developedand become his own person enough to just cope with it.

[Inzhuna]

I guess you're right, but I still wish there was an option for Hawke to ask "But what about the memories" and then have Fenris tell you he can cope with it now. On the other hand, I guess we'll always want more, so I don't know.

[Hekateras]

Inzhuna wrote...

Really, if you constantly keep in mind the unreliability of Varric as the narrator, a LOT of things make much more sense.

Like the exploding enemy bodies? 

For a fuller list, you need look no further than here: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/DragonAgeII

[MelRedux]

I'm still catching up, but I noticed that someone said a couple pages back how it would been interesting ifHawke being a mage was a line Fenris wouldn't cross, and if Hawke was a bloodmage that would be a line Anders wouldn't cross.

I really like that idea. The choices we make REALLY effect our relationships. Could you imagine starting a romance with Anders, then choosing the blood mage spec, and then all of the sudden he's all "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!! YOU ARE A BLOOD MAGE THIS CAN'T HAPPEN! GTFO!!" Oh, the drama!! Or if you start a mage, thinking you'll romance Fenris, then DENIED!

I kind of love this idea. Our choices become a bit more impactful to our PCs personal story. And it relieves a lot of hand-waving.

Hekateras wrote...

Undoubtedly the real reason is that they couldn't be bothered (and didn't consider it fair) to add a whole new lot of content just for one class.

Oh, most definitely this.  But here's hoping for the future, eh?

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 12:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Then shouldn't Anders reject a templar? What about reavers? They eat flesh don't they? Oh but won't rogue classes then want something similar?

That's where it gets messy to me. If you need to make one class make sense narratively so do the rest.

Hey so bloodmages get all this extra dialogue...what about spirit healers? Beserkers? So on and so forth. 

That said I do believe there could've been some more dialogue about Hawke being a mage (and more dialogue period on all fronts) but it didn't strain my credibility that Fenris would fall in love with a mage without mentioning it in several conversations. (After a while that probably would've worn a little thin. The "my only friend is a mage." to me was plenty of reference). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Then shouldn't Anders reject a templar? What about reavers? They eat flesh don't they? Oh but won't rogue classes then want something similar?

That's where it gets messy to me. If you need to make one class make sense narratively so do the rest.

Realistically, every class/spec/choice should effect relationships in different ways.  Also, that is probably nearly impossible to develop.

However, one thing that Bioware has been fantastic with is offering more and more choices/consequences with each game they put out.  Maybe 10 years down the line, it wouldn't be so messy. You have to start somewhere!

[Ryzaki]

Mel_Redux wrote...
Realistically, every class/spec/choice should effect relationships in different ways.  Also, that is probably nearly impossible to develop.

However, one thing that Bioware has been fantastic with is offering more and more choices/consequences with each game they put out.  Maybe 10 years down the line, it wouldn't be so messy. You have to start somewhere!

True. I'd rather start with small content for all specializations than alot for just one. 

[Inzhuna]

Hekateras wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

Really, if you constantly keep in mind the unreliability of Varric as the narrator, a LOT of things make much more sense.

Like the exploding enemy bodies? 

For a fuller list, you need look no further than here: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/DragonAgeII

Hehe, I am addicted to tvtropes so I read that page already.
But now that you linked it I might just go and check if there's anything new... *is sucked into the abyss*

[Annarl]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Then shouldn't Anders reject a templar? What about reavers? They eat flesh don't they? Oh but won't rogue classes then want something similar?

That's where it gets messy to me. If you need to make one class make sense narratively so do the rest.

Realistically, every class/spec/choice should effect relationships in different ways.  Also, that is probably nearly impossible to develop.

However, one thing that Bioware has been fantastic with is offering more and more choices/consequences with each game they put out.  Maybe 10 years down the line, it wouldn't be so messy. You have to start somewhere!

This is true.  The companions should react but are most likely limited by the game engine and time and resource management.  How much content are you willing to cut in order to have Anders react to a blood mage or Fenris to a mage?

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

nvm

more thought out response later

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[Doodle]

May i join into this madness, i'm new and it looks like alot of fun

[tsunderes]

Hekateras wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Where did you get that idea?  He competed for an extremely painful ritual in order to get a boon to free his mother and sister.  The ritual wiped his memories so he was more or less brainwashed, but he describes thinking the look on Danarius' face was "priceless."  That doesn't sound like a happy slave to me.

@tankgirly:  The GIF is cute, but is the spam really necessary?  It was cute about the first twenty times I saw it...

This is what I got: He doesn't remember before the ritual. After the ritual he did not retain the perspective and knowledge to understand he was being mistreated. So I don't see why he'd be angry, and have to develop stoic behavior to repress his anger in that situation. Once he escaped he regained perspective. THEN he could be angry but would have no reason to repress it except... because it's cool?

I guessed he thought the expression was 'priceless' in hindsight.

A slave has no use for stoicism and locking away emotions? Really?

Look, just please stop and imagine his mindset as a slave for a moment. Really imagine. Here's Danarius punishing him with a beating for something. Does he feel bad about it? Undoubtedly. Does he feel defiant about it? No, because he's been conditioned to accept that the master is right, so therefore he must deserve the punishment, and kick himself for displeasing his master. Even if his master isn't right, he'd still kick himself for being careless and making his master angry. And really, you think he'd have no use for stoicism during beatings, or when being drained of blood for an experiment of some sort, or when half-dead from defending his master from assailants? You think that in the constant mindset of inescapable despair the slaves are kept (rememeber the giant statues?), there would be no negative emotions to repress? Really? <_<

Not thinking of escape or being accepting of his situation does NOT mean he wasn't an unhappy slave.

And honestly, this nitpicking at his mannerisms feels a bit silly. Why does anyone act stoically, or doesn't? Why do people who haven't gone through horrible stuff still sometimes act stoically? It's just the kind of behaviour that comes naturally or feels more comfortable to him. Personalities are formed in unpredictable ways - can you trace every quality of your personality back to some logical reason?

I also see nothing inconsistent with him locking up emotions but going on the occasional dramatised rant about it now and then. It fits perfectly with someone who's generally introverted and doesn't open up to people much, while being so affection-starved and sympathy-starved that he still wants to give people a means to understand him, but without losing face. He draws comfort from the idea of being strong and unshakable, as shown in his numerous "Don't pity me" moments, but still longs for comfort too much not to leave an opening.

It's conflicted and contradictory and perfectly, breathtakingly, intricately realistic. It's the classic introvert's response to pain - needing comfort, acting like they don't, but still leaving openings for comfort. Maybe it takes being introverted yourself to really understand - which I certainly am.

Man, there are so many paralelles between what you've written and child abuse, gah. But that's a whole other can of worms. (this isn't saying your analization is wrong, because I very much agree)
I think his blow ups are one of the most consistent things with the rest of his character. He holds it in so often that it reaches a boiling point and he just goes off the rail. But he always regrets it, and apologizes for losing his composure.

[Hekateras]

@tsunders

I agree that a comparison to child abuse can undoubtedly be drawn. I did a rant on it already, but I'll be damned if I can find it now... Suffice to say that with the memory-wipe, his dependency on Danarius to give him purpose, looking to him for approval and security and allegedly feeling affection, trust and loyalty to him... yes, it makes sense.

Pseudocognition wrote...

Hekateras wrote...
[snip]

It's
conflicted and contradictory and perfectly, breathtakingly, intricately
realistic. It's the classic introvert's response to pain - needing
comfort, acting like they don't, but still leaving openings for comfort.
Maybe it takes being introverted yourself to really understand - which I
certainly am.

I accept that it is realistic for
him to behave this way. But my issue with it and other traits of his are
that no matter how plausible it would be to behave or not behave in
certain ways, the behavior that would make me think "this is the
Magister's fault, I should translate my sympathy for Fenris into
consideration for an anti-mage stance" (because I am hesitant
to take his word for how bad things are, and as Shorts has said, if his
purpose is not to give weight to the anti-mage stance, then what is he
doing?) is so subtle and hidden or altogether unaddressed that I have a
hard time caring. I don't mind working to understand a character, but
Fenris isn't helping me out.

So basically, your issue
is that he's too subtle? Meh. To each his own, I guess. XD Like I said
earlier - if it were any more obvious than literal scars left by magic
on his body and his trust issues and social deficiency showing through
in every freaking line he says, then fans would be complaining about him
beating them over the head with how baddly he suffers. If Gaider went
for the more subtle approach, I'm not complaining. Can't please everyone, obviously.

But to address what you said earlier...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Also I find his view of Tevinter magisters as Always Chaotic Evil very suspect considering this is the ultimate grey and grey morality-verse... unless they actually are Always Chaotic Evil, which is... I don't know. Are they this Age's Acceptable Target? It feels like we're being set up to hate them and then go there and meet the noble citizens trying to reform from the inside, who keep getting set back because public perception of Tevinter is Always Chaotic Evil.

You're misusing that trope. Always Chaotic Evil refers to a whole race being always evil, no less than that. Go read the trope description. "The notion of not an organization, not a clan, not a city, but an entire race of bad guys who brag about how Evil they are".

Compare the Tevinter Magisters. They're not a race. They are individuals from that race - the most ruthless, cunning and powerful mages. They're not evil because they're Magisters, they became (and stayed) Magisters because they're evil. Like Fenris says - there IS the occasional one who tries to do things differently and stay away from blood magic or abolish slavery, but they simply don't live long. Thus, over the long term, almost all if not all Magisters WILL inevitably consist of the evil cream of that society.

Certain professions and certain positions in society attract and can only be held by a certain type of person, that is all. No different from how the people that can get ahead in politics will always inevitably be skilled liars wtih a superficial charisma and essentially share many qualities with full-out sociopaths. No different from, as much as I hate bringing pre-WWII Germany into any debate, any German higher-up during that time.

Dismissing Fenris's description of all Magisters being evil as "Always Chaotic Evil" is flat out wrong. Assuming that Fenris's description of the structure of Tevinter society is accurate (and why wouldn't it be? He was a bodyguard, after all. Magisters killing each other would be relevant for him), all Magisters being evil makes perfect sense.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

It might not be wrong of him to call them that (misuse of trope or whatever) but it's suspicious to me given that there seem to be exceptions to every "rule" in this series so far. Including darkspawn.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[tsunderes]

Mel_Redux wrote...

DarthMael wrote...

I've been following the discussion for quite some time, and the only thing I can say is that if someone's looking for Mary Sue/Gary Stu in DA2, IMO they should look no further then Hawke. The default Hawkes are even helpfully named Marian and Garrett, so...

P.S.: Just kidding

HAHAHA!  Duh, I'm so slow.  I never realized that before.  I wouldn't doubt that the devs did that on purpose.

HAHAHA I never noticed that!! That's brilliant. :lol:
I was going to bring up Hawke during the sue argument too and everything.

[Hekateras]

Pseudocognition wrote...

It might not be wrong of him to call them that (misuse of trope or whatever) but it's suspicious to me given that there seem to be exceptions to ever "rule" in this series so far. Including darkspawn.

There are exceptions to every rule - Fenris says as much about Magisters. He TELLS you of a Magister who tried to abolish slavery. But they just don't last long.

The Architect as an exception of the darkspawn proves nothing at all because he can die by your own hand, and might undoubtedly have died many times before that if not for the odd ally or two. That right there is an example of an exception to the rule simply not lasting.

Compare it to natural selection, if you will. The Tevinters are a dog-eats-dog society. If one of the dogs decides to do things differently, they get eaten. It would take a lot of the dogs happening to come to the same conclusion simultaneous to actually change the rules of the game.

There is nothing unrealistic about each and every Tevinter Magister being an unscrupulous, child-sacrificing blood mage bastard. In fact, it is chillingly accurate, because that is precisely how social structures with highly discrimating staying conditions work in real life.

I just don't see why this is so hard to envision.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 02:35 .