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[tsunderes]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

Sorry if this ends up being a double post in advance.
I agree, and I think a lot of people feel the same, it does break the immersion a bit (same with if youre a BLOOD MAGE and no one gaf?! Blood-mages are monsters and horribly illigal but if it's Hawke it's a-ok.)
But I think it has to do with EA being jerks and pushing the release so time constraints, and probably money because of the extra scenes and dialouge that would be needed. The touch on it a little with him (like some of the dialouge options change) but barely, and I wish they'd done more.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pseudocognition wrote...

It might not be wrong of him to call them that (misuse of trope or whatever) but it's suspicious to me given that there seem to be exceptions to every "rule" in this series so far. Including darkspawn.

Indeed.   Everything in DA:O told my Warden DARKSPAWN BAD but then suddenly the Architect appears, and I'm like "oh hey wait I thought I was supposed to... hate... all of you...!"

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if we met a Tevinter mage in the future that we could talk to and he/she not be completely KILL ON SIGHT.

Hekateras wrote...

There
are exceptions to every rule - Fenris says as much about Magisters. He
TELLS you of a Magister who tried to abolish slavery. But they just
don't last long.

The Architect as an exception of the darkspawn proves nothing at all because he can die by your own hand,
and might undoubtedly have died many times before that if not for the
odd ally or two. That right there is an example of an exception to the
rule simply not lasting.

Compare it to natural selection,
if you will. The Tevinters are a dog-eats-dog society. If one of the
dogs decides to do things differently, they get eaten. It would take a
lot of the dogs happening to come to the same conclusion simultaneous to
actually change the rules of the game.

I just don't see why this is so hard to envision.

Funny, I could say the same thing about Orlais and Val Royeaux, the Seat of the White Divine.  From everything I've heard about Orlesian noble society, it's very much a dog-eat-dog world with everyone vying for power and trying to assassinate one another.  Some nobles are even pushing to take over Ferelden again because they believe that the land still belongs to them.  Same could also be said about Antiva, except that it's more behind the scenes with the assassins struggling with one another.   I guess the main difference with Tevinter is that they have mages roaming free and in seats of power.  Orlais doesn't have slaves, but the nobles still dominate everything, and there is a clear division between upper and lower class.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 avril 2011 - 02:40 .

[Hekateras]

Hm, involving possible future roles for Fenris in the DA story...

You give him the Book of Shartan, about the elf who freed the slaves. In a later conversation, when he talks about how heavily the Tevinters rely on slavery and how deep-set that reliance is in their system, he says something like "But one day they'll realise just how fragile their hold really is". It sounded... unexpectedly vehement, with a sort of "I will get you!!!!" tone of voice. Additionally, judging by how he treats in-game slavers, both on and off-screen (the banter with Aveline), if Fenris has a cause, fighting slavery is it.

I think we might see him leading a "little" rebellion of his own in the Imperium in later games...

[Hekateras]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Orlais doesn't have slaves, but the nobles still dominate everything, and there is a clear division between upper and lower class.

I recall something - a Codex entry, or a line by someone - saying that it's basically just a pretense that Orlais doesn't have slavery and that the elf servants still fulfill the same basic role.

Still, they probably don't have it as bad as the blood and labour slaves in Tevinter, of course...

[Ladivixxen]

Took me a few hours to catch up... *whew* conversations have flipped, done a 180. The thread has gone from how much Fenris is adored to tearing up the game, again how pockets of time are missing, character writing and the effects therof, role in the story (if any and minor) to really scrutinizing how Hawke and Fenris react to instances either among themselves or the personal vendetta that is more of question than we have answers. If that isn't a sudden change, then I don't know what is!

All the characters could have better explanation. Having Fenris as an LI with such a dark background is definitely part of the allure off which attracts the player in the first place. Mind you that Gideon's voice helped bunches, however it is the troubling background, the mystery and want for understanding that did the hook-line-sinker for both rivalmance and friendmance.

My $0.02 of little value with some observation.

And.. good morning all

[Addai]

tsunderes wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

Sorry if this ends up being a double post in advance.
I agree, and I think a lot of people feel the same, it does break the immersion a bit (same with if youre a BLOOD MAGE and no one gaf?! Blood-mages are monsters and horribly illigal but if it's Hawke it's a-ok.)
But I think it has to do with EA being jerks and pushing the release so time constraints, and probably money because of the extra scenes and dialouge that would be needed. The touch on it a little with him (like some of the dialouge options change) but barely, and I wish they'd done more.

Have to disagree with the bolded part.  I think that's a misinterpretation of his character.  When Hawke suggests that he hates her for being a mage, he responds, "You are not Danarius.  If you are anything like him remains to be seen."  So from your second conversation with him, he's saying he can make a distinction between this mage and that mage, even if he distrusts all of them on principle.

Now you could argue the game should allow you to be as super-evil as Danarius and there should be a point where he'll break it off, but that goes along with the decision to structure the rivalry/friendship system the way it is.  I guess that's why some people feel it's beyond the pale for Anders to side with the templars, that there should be a line the NPCs won't cross.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Hekateras wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
Orlais doesn't have slaves, but the nobles still dominate everything, and there is a clear division between upper and lower class.

I recall something - a Codex entry, or a line by someone - saying that it's basically just a pretense that Orlais doesn't have slavery and that the elf servants still fulfill the same basic role.

Still, they probably don't have it as bad as the blood and labour slaves in Tevinter, of course...

No, I don't think any one in Orlais conducts magical experiments and whathaveyou on the elven servants, but subjugation is subjugation.  It's a little hypocritical for the seat of the White Divine to preach the teachings of Andraste but continue to oppress the people that she had started a revolution to save (slaves in general).  When I was playing my city elf warden in DA:O and talking to Leliana and I heard her talk about the nimble and deft elven servants I wanted to reach in and claw her face off.  Maybe we'll find out more about their condition in future games.

I do remember her saying that at least some of them lead comfortable lives, but as indicated in both of the Alienages we've seen between DA:O and DA2, seems like a crap life for elves no matter where you go.  They're not allowed to rise above their stations, to be certain.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[Addai]

Tanathir wrote...

Okay, wow.  15+ pages to read through like a good forum-goer.

First.  Could we PLEASE stop with the Tangled gif?

I agree with the assessment that Fenris is an introvert, and that he apparently can't be enough or too little of anything for fans.  He is not emo but wait he is, he is not damaged but oh he so is, he is emotional no he's stoic.

Fenris.  Is.  Not.  A Mary Sue character.  I suggest more Google and research on what that archetype actually means.

Does Fenris NEED a purpose?  Does he have to satisfy your (general you here, not any specific person) particular desire for how you think he should be essential to the plot?  David Gaider may be a god of sorts, but he is not a mind reader.  Fenris is a very well written character.  That in itself makes him one of my favorites.  I mean honestly, Sebastian is downloaded content, he's not strictly essential either.

I am angry at EA and whoever else for rushing the game.  Who knows what we've missed because of corporate greed pushing it to get released for sale?  It certainly looks like a lot had to be left out which would satisfy fan questions.

Illiteracy.  Gah.  I have a teaching degree, I work in education, and let me tell you, some of the most ignorant, clueless, narrow-minded people I've known have been literate.  Literacy DOES NOT equal intelligence.  Illiteracy DOES NOT equal unintelligent.  It's perfectly reasonable for Fenris to be well-spoken and understand a lot and not know how to read.

I like you.

I swear, sometimes when people discuss dueling tropes, it's like lawyers going back and forth about minutiae of the law.

[Hekateras]

It definitely does show that Tevinter isn't the only screwed-up society. All the nations have their... quirks. And it's not just the elves, either. Remember how in Orlais it's apparently legal and within a Chevalier's rights to advance on any woman he wishes, whether she wants it or not?

That's what I like about the game and Low Fantasy in general. They take all these issues and values - many of which existed in our own world at a certain time or even still do - and incorporate them into a world in a way that really showcases what it's like to live in a place where such things are normal... Much preferable to settings like Faerun, in my opinion.

[MelRedux]

Addai67 wrote...
Have to disagree with the bolded part.  I think that's a misinterpretation of his character.  When Hawke suggests that he hates her for being a mage, he responds, "You are not Danarius.  If you are anything like him remains to be seen."  So from your second conversation with him, he's saying he can make a distinction between this mage and that mage, even if he distrusts all of them on principle.

Now you could argue the game should allow you to be as super-evil as Danarius and there should be a point where he'll break it off, but that goes along with the decision to structure the rivalry/friendship system the way it is.  I guess that's why some people feel it's beyond the pale for Anders to side with the templars, that there should be a line the NPCs won't cross.

Yes, he can make a distinction.  I think he can grow to respect Hawke, and perhaps even be friends.  But fall madly deeply in love? For me, that seems like a big leap.

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[tsunderes]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Have to disagree with the bolded part.  I think that's a misinterpretation of his character.  When Hawke suggests that he hates her for being a mage, he responds, "You are not Danarius.  If you are anything like him remains to be seen."  So from your second conversation with him, he's saying he can make a distinction between this mage and that mage, even if he distrusts all of them on principle.

Now you could argue the game should allow you to be as super-evil as Danarius and there should be a point where he'll break it off, but that goes along with the decision to structure the rivalry/friendship system the way it is.  I guess that's why some people feel it's beyond the pale for Anders to side with the templars, that there should be a line the NPCs won't cross.

Yes, he can make a distinction.  I think he can grow to respect Hawke, and perhaps even be friends.  But fall madly deeply in love? For me, that seems like a big leap.

True friendship is a love of sorts, just platonic. I don't see how Hawke being his best friend is plausable to you but being lovers isn't?

[Doodle]

One on every page

Modifié par I LikeTo Doodle, 21 avril 2011 - 03:31 .

[Addai]

Mel_Redux wrote...
Yes, he can make a distinction.  I think he can grow to respect Hawke, and perhaps even be friends.  But flal madly deeply in love? For me, that seems like a big leap.

It's a little Sue-ish.  But we already have a choice of sibling forced on us based on class- I'd rather not have LI be dependent on class.  Some things you just have to wave for the sake of gameplay and resources.

There is some acknowledgement, though- like in the heart option where he says "I'm an escaped slave, doesn't that bother you?", Hawke responds, "I'm an apostate refugee, does that bother you?"  His response is the same for all LIs- "you bring up a good point, I'll have to think about it"- but you could rp it that his reluctance is because Hawke is a mage.  (edit: in fact, that line makes the most sense for me on a mage PC)

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[Addai]

I LikeTo Doodle wrote...

*snip*
One on every page

OMG... really?  This has ceased to be cute and is annoying.

[MelRedux]

tsunderes wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Have to disagree with the bolded part.  I think that's a misinterpretation of his character.  When Hawke suggests that he hates her for being a mage, he responds, "You are not Danarius.  If you are anything like him remains to be seen."  So from your second conversation with him, he's saying he can make a distinction between this mage and that mage, even if he distrusts all of them on principle.

Now you could argue the game should allow you to be as super-evil as Danarius and there should be a point where he'll break it off, but that goes along with the decision to structure the rivalry/friendship system the way it is.  I guess that's why some people feel it's beyond the pale for Anders to side with the templars, that there should be a line the NPCs won't cross.

Yes, he can make a distinction.  I think he can grow to respect Hawke, and perhaps even be friends.  But fall madly deeply in love? For me, that seems like a big leap.

True friendship is a love of sorts, just platonic. I don't see how Hawke being his best friend is plausable to you but being lovers isn't?

I'm not saying any of it is implausible.  It's just hard for me to believe without Hawke being all Mary-Sue.  She's the one mage that will make him look past her being a mage so the can become friends/lovers.  It's a Mary-Sue smack in the face.

[MelRedux]

Addai67 wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
Yes, he can make a distinction.  I think he can grow to respect Hawke, and perhaps even be friends.  But flal madly deeply in love? For me, that seems like a big leap.

It's a little Sue-ish.  But we already have a choice of sibling forced on us based on class- I'd rather not have LI be dependent on class.  Some things you just have to wave for the sake of gameplay and resources.

There is some acknowledgement, though- like in the heart option where he says "I'm an escaped slave, doesn't that bother you?", Hawke responds, "I'm an apostate refugee, does that bother you?"  His response is the same for all LIs- "you bring up a good point, I'll have to think about it"- but you could rp it that his reluctance is because Hawke is a mage.  (edit: in fact, that line makes the most sense for me on a mage PC)

Of course I would like to romance whomever I choose, no matter my class, spec, decision, etc.  But I think having different outcomes based on them would add an interesting dynamic.  More dramatic gut-punches would ensue, and it would offer more replay value.

I'm also a fan of everything being tragic and non-happy endings, so I may be bias

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[Hekateras]

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

[Ashera]

Addai67 wrote...

I LikeTo Doodle wrote...

*snip*
One on every page

OMG... really?  This has ceased to be cute and is annoying.

Agreed. At least two people have asked that it be stopped (one was ignored). I am tired of seeing it also.

[Addai]

Mel_Redux wrote...
I'm also a fan of everything being tragic and non-happy endings, so I may be bias

In my case, he is forced to go on the run again because Hawke defended the mages, and much as I want to imagine them on a desert island somewhere, they'll probably be drawn into the mage war whether Hawke wants to or not.  So I can envision all sorts of doom and gloom from that ending.  A little too vividly. 

[Ashera]

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

I agree with this but... deep down inside there's a part of me (and therefore I suppose my mage!Hawke) that is rather uncomfortable with being "the exception." That is, the fact that Hawke (and apparently Bethany) is the exception should prove there are many others that don't fit into Fenris' rather rigid way of viewing mages. I don't fault him for that because of his circumstances, but given he is extremely intelligent and observant, it is interesting to me that he is apparently only able to overcome his prejudices except for Hawke (and Bethany to a much lesser extent).

On the other hand... Kirkwall is custom made by its torn veil to bolster every bad-mage idea he has, so, perhaps I can't fault him there either.

[autumnyte]

I personally prefer to romance Fenris with a non-mage because it does seem more realistic to me, though I don't think it's completely implausible that he'd fall in love with a mage. I can understand why people are drawn the drama of that dynamic, though.

In terms of Hawke being a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu, I actually appreciate that s/he successfully avoided some of those pitfalls. I mean, I think some degree of that is inevitable with the "hero" of an RPG. But I loved that Hawke's companions have their own separate lives and not everything revolves around Hawke. I also love that s/he is very fallible, can make bad jokes that no one laughs at, and is generally not the bees knees in any given scenario.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I see where you guys are coming from, but...

I would be uncomfortable with Mage!Hawke being unable to fully romance Fenris. The parallels between we can be friends vs. we can not be lovers is...problematic to me.  It belies a sort of prejudice that I don't think should be handwaved or legitimized.  It would make him a despicable character in my eyes and unworthy of Hawke.  I find his ability to confront that prejudice via the person he loves, the more compelling arc.  This is why I think for a mage, rivalry is the better option because we can see the tension and that resistance without him being deplorable and still holding to that distaste for mages.

[Ryzaki]

...Being a BW main character by default makes one pretty sueish so I'm not getting how the mary sue is supposed to be surprising. "Oh it makes Hawke sueish." "Like all the other BW main protagonists? Why exactly is this surprising?" 

I don't play a BW game expecting my protagonist to be a overly realistic. (Which is probably why DA2 was such a shock out of all BW protags Hawke is the least sueish of the lot). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[nightscrawl]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Funny, I could say the same thing about Orlais and Val Royeaux, the Seat of the White Divine.  From everything I've heard about Orlesian noble society, it's very much a dog-eat-dog world with everyone vying for power and trying to assassinate one another.  Some nobles are even pushing to take over Ferelden again because they believe that the land still belongs to them.  Same could also be said about Antiva, except that it's more behind the scenes with the assassins struggling with one another.   I guess the main difference with Tevinter is that they have mages roaming free and in seats of power.  Orlais doesn't have slaves, but the nobles still dominate everything, and there is a clear division between upper and lower class.

Not going to turn this into a mage thread, but I'll just say one thing. To quote Samson, the ex-templar, "they got options we don't," and that is what makes them dangerous.

(I am generally pro-mage btw.)

Hekateras wrote...

Additionally, judging by how he treats in-game slavers, both on and off-screen (the banter with Aveline), if Fenris has a cause, fighting slavery is it.

I know you used "if," but Fenris just doesn't seem like the type to have a cause. He has strong beliefs on many subjects (his banter with Sebastian about his faith is amazing...,) including slavery, but to make the jump to being an actual cause is something else entirely.

Although, perhaps he just had to get over all of his issues (which you as Hawke help with a bit) to entertain the idea of a cause.

[Helen0rz]

@Tanathir

What you said...was awesome
And I dont think Fenris has to serve a purpose especially since we all look at things differently. And if DG listened to everyone of us when he wrote the character...Fenris would not be Fenris and it would be really crazy...