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[MelRedux]

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

After the years of oppression under mages, and his deep-seeded hate for mages, yes, I find it difficult to understand.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

[upsettingshorts]

Tanathir wrote...

Does Fenris NEED a purpose? 

Yes.  IMHO, of course. 

Any post that either says or implies that he doesn't have one or doesn't need one kind of strengthens my argument from where I sit.

I mean, I expected he would have one - as per DG - and the idea that he doesn't disappoints me.  So if someone says, "He doesn't really need one" or "He doesn't have one" or even "He does, but it's superficial," all that would seem to at least agree with my premise - that he lacks a significant purpose - if not my conclusion: that this is disappointing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[Hekateras]

Oh, and don't forget the hormone thing. Attraction and hormones help a great deal. Suffice to say that with recent neurological and biochemical studies, less and less about the mystery of love is staying so mysterious. XD

In a way, I think friendship is more implausible than love here. Love - at least the early, infatuation stage - makes you blind to a person's flaws. Friendship doesn't have that easy out. In order to develop friendship, the two people need to come to accept and respect each other for reasons that make some degree of sense. In a way, friendship is also more selfless, because you support the person without the expectation of getting sex in exchange and that you'll be together forever.

This is why I feel that falling in love is a very cheap way for a writer to settle two character's differences in views, backgrounds, personalities, socioeconomic status and what have you. (Disney Pocahontas, The Little Mermaid, pretty much any love story by Disney, ever.) Once you've got the mutual attraction and love-like feelings drawing the characters together and giving them a shared motivation to search for a compromise, the conflict's basically done, it's too easy. To me it often feels like a cheap substitute for actually resolving these differences and exploring how and why and whether they would even *want* to resolve them.

That's why I often prefer friendship stories in lieu of romance. I'm probably alone in this. ^^;

But yeah - by this logic, if Fenris can come to develop absolute loyalty to Hawke as a friend, there's certainly nothing keeping him from giving in to less platonic urges, as well.

[Ryzaki]

Village Idiot wrote...

I see where you guys are coming from, but...

I would be uncomfortable with Mage!Hawke being unable to fully romance Fenris. The parallels between we can be friends vs. we can not be lovers is...problematic to me.  It belies a sort of prejudice that I don't think should be handwaved or legitimized.  It would make him a despicable character in my eyes and unworthy of Hawke.  I find his ability to confront that prejudice via the person he loves, the more compelling arc.  This is why I think for a mage, rivalry is the better option because we can see the tension and that resistance without him being deplorable and still holding to that distaste for mages.

I agree with this. 

[Hekateras]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

After the years of oppression under mages, and his deep-seeded hate for mages, yes, I find it difficult to understand.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

As has been stated before, he doesn't have a deep-seated hatred of mages in particular, and please hear me out before you start stoning me. He has a deep-seated hatred of abuse of power. The manifestation of that he's most intimately familiar with is slavery, and the means he's most familliar with is magic. Mages simply have more power than anyone else, so he's more prone to seeing and judging them as potential subjugators. If your Hawke is not like that, he has no reason to hate you and no reason to have issues about getting intimate with you.

[MelRedux]

Hekateras wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

After the years of oppression under mages, and his deep-seeded hate for mages, yes, I find it difficult to understand.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

As has been stated before, he doesn't have a deep-seated hatred of mages in particular, and please hear me out before you start stoning me. He has a deep-seated hatred of abuse of power. The manifestation of that he's most intimately familiar with is slavery, and the means he's most familliar with is magic. Mages simply have more power than anyone else, so he's more prone to seeing and judging them as potential subjugators. If your Hawke is not like that, he has no reason to hate you and no reason to have issues about getting intimate with you.

I wasn't aware I was stoning you.  In fact, I was saying I agree that what you are saying is, in fact, plausible.  I just don't see it happening as easily as you do.  We are different, we view it different.  That is all.

[Hekateras]

Ashera wrote...

That is, the fact that Hawke (and apparently Bethany) is the exception should prove there are many others that don't fit into Fenris' rather rigid way of viewing mages. I don't fault him for that because of his circumstances, but given he is extremely intelligent and observant, it is interesting to me that he is apparently only able to overcome his prejudices except for Hawke (and Bethany to a much lesser extent).

Bethany and Mage!Hawke are not exceptions, because his "theory" is NOT "All mages are evil". His theory is "all mages are dangerous, and highly at risk of giving in to the temptation of becoming evil", as well as "Mages, as a whole, are dangerous because it only takes a few weak ones to cause mayhem, and thus they deserve to be monitored".

Nothing about Bethany or Mage!Hawke conflicts with those worldviews. If he meets a decent mage, either they just happen to be one of the strong ones, or they simply have yet to submit to temptation, or both. Which is pessimistic and paranoid, but not necessarily unwise or wrong, particularly since he doesn't kill people left and right just for being mages.

[buggirl]

Am I the only on who really does not dwell too much on the motivation of the characters and settings? Usually if I do my suspension of disbelief would be broken at the beginning of any game.

I do create my characters with personal stories and moral traits and I do RP NPCs to fit my story. Within his personality frame, I have given Fenris reasons to stand by my mage on a rivalry path and they work for me.

[upsettingshorts]

Man, I really wish I could come up with an argument to demonstrate how Fenris' anti-mage prejudice is very real that wouldn't ignite a ****storm.

*sticks fingers on temples, emits humming sound*

[Caliyhe]

Perhaps ending this discussion altogether is wise, yes?

[nightscrawl]

Ashera wrote...

I agree with this but... deep down inside there's a part of me (and therefore I suppose my mage!Hawke) that is rather uncomfortable with being "the exception." That is, the fact that Hawke (and apparently Bethany) is the exception should prove there are many others that don't fit into Fenris' rather rigid way of viewing mages. I don't fault him for that because of his circumstances, but given he is extremely intelligent and observant, it is interesting to me that he is apparently only able to overcome his prejudices except for Hawke (and Bethany to a much lesser extent).

On the other hand... Kirkwall is custom made by its torn veil to bolster every bad-mage idea he has, so, perhaps I can't fault him there either.

Unfortunately, most of the scenes involving mages using blood magic are basically done in such a way, and Fenris actually comments to this effect if he is with you, as to be "See! I told you they're all bad! None of them can resist the temptation to turn to blood magic if backed into a corner." There are very few exception to this in the various quests. In fact, the only examples I can think of are Alain (Grace does not count, since she actually suggests killing the templars) and Ella (poor girl...)

So while some of it are his past circumstances yes, he is initially willing to look beyond it when you first meet him. As you progress through the game however, more and more mages (no matter their reasons) prove him right.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Caliyhe wrote...

Perhaps ending this discussion altogether is wise, yes?

Why?  I like intelligent debates.

[Ryzaki]

You might as well say it instead of saying "oh it'll start a ****storm.". That's just pointless.

[Ashera]

Caliyhe wrote...

Perhaps ending this discussion altogether is wise, yes?

Why? No one is being rude or mean.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

You might as well say it instead of saying "oh it'll start a ****storm.". That's just pointless.

Eh, if you PM me I'll say it.  I'm just not posting it here.  Then you can either respond with, "Yea, that makes sense" or "No I still disagree" and the same effect will be achieved without additional controversy.

I mean, people have already asked and I've already responded.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[MelRedux]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Man, I really wish I could come up with an argument to demonstrate how Fenris' anti-mage prejudice is very real that wouldn't ignite a ****storm.

*sticks fingers on temples, emits humming sound*

I, for one, would like to hear it.  And not to ignite a ****storm, but to hear new and different theories and ideas about a character we all love.  Whether it is complimentary towards that character or not.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You might as well say it instead of saying "oh it'll start a ****storm.". That's just pointless.

Eh, if you PM me I'll say it.  I'm just not posting it here.  Then you can either respond with, "Yea, that makes sense" or "No I still disagree" and the same effect will be achieved without controversy.

True. 

On the topic of Fenris romance making sense with a mage. Makes sense to me. So *shrugs*. 

[upsettingshorts]

Mel_Redux wrote...
Whether it is complimentary towards that character or not.

That's not really why I'm holding back.  I view Fenris' position on mages as prejudicial, and examples of that in the real world being drawn are likely to incite controversy on public forum.  I've cited far less polarizing things before and seen similar things happen, and I don't think anyone wants the kind of derailment that discussion would lead to.

Ryzaki wrote...

On the topic of Fenris romance making sense with a mage. Makes sense to me. So *shrugs*. 

I can see it working too, for possibly different reasons.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[Hekateras]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

After the years of oppression under mages, and his deep-seeded hate for mages, yes, I find it difficult to understand.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

As has been stated before, he doesn't have a deep-seated hatred of mages in particular, and please hear me out before you start stoning me. He has a deep-seated hatred of abuse of power. The manifestation of that he's most intimately familiar with is slavery, and the means he's most familliar with is magic. Mages simply have more power than anyone else, so he's more prone to seeing and judging them as potential subjugators. If your Hawke is not like that, he has no reason to hate you and no reason to have issues about getting intimate with you.

I wasn't aware I was stoning you.  In fact, I was saying I agree that what you are saying is, in fact, plausible.  I just don't see it happening as easily as you do.  We are different, we view it different.  That is all.

I wasn't accusing you of stoning me - sorry if it came off like that. You did see the smiley, right?  But I just wanted to head off any potential replies about "OF COURSE he hates mages! Did you hear all the rants he does?".



@ Upsettingshorts, I have no idea what you're talking about. We've been... decidedly not stoic, but certainly rather civil. As someone awesome put it many pages back, as far as Internet discussions go, we're one step below sipping tea from china with our pinkies sticking out. What are you afraid of?

I can't say I agree with you insisting that Fenris's role in the story is "superficial". To be honest, what I think DG may have been referring to is simply a reason to be there. Unlike many of the Origins companions who stick around with you for no good reason at all (Zevran, Wynne, Leliana's excuse of fate and a vision was also pushing it), for Fenris it at least makes sense to be at the heart of the Templar/Mage conflict.

Nevertheless, I'd be interested in hearing your arguments for his prejudice against mages in particular, as opposed to subjugation in general and focussing on slavery and magic because those are things he's had the most bad experiences with.

I mean, he is prejudiced, sure - in the technical sense of having judged each mage to be a viper waiting to strike unless they can prove him wrong. I don't think anyone argued otherwise.

Modifié par Hekateras, 21 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[Caliyhe]

Ashera wrote...

Caliyhe wrote...

Perhaps ending this discussion altogether is wise, yes?

Why? No one is being rude or mean.

I beg to differ on earlier comments but I am not going there. It was a suggestion..not a demand.

[Ashera]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

On the topic of Fenris romance making sense with a mage. Makes sense to me. So *shrugs*. 

I can see it working too, for possibly different reasons.

Curious as to your reasons for this (I don't recall seeing them in earlier postings, so I apologize if you have already stated them). I don't agree with some of your positions, but they are interesting, and I would love to hear your thoughts.

[Addai]

Mel_Redux wrote...
I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

That's reasonable.  There are certain pairings that just seem right and others not, to different people.  I suppose I'm wary of stating it too dogmatically because some people in the fandom practically worship certain pairings and think they're "the way it was meant to be." (I'm not naming any names!)

And, serious debate is good.  We're all adults and can behave ourselves.  Mostly. 

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 04:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

Hekateras wrote...

@ Upsettingshorts, I have no idea what you're talking about. We've been... decidedly not stoic, but certainly rather civil. As someone awesome put it many pages back, as far as Internet discussions go, we're one step below sipping tea from china with our pinkies sticking out.  What are you afraid of?

Look, I'll just PM you because I don't expect you'd be any of the folks throwing up your arms if I were to post it.

Hekateras wrote...

I can't say I agree with you insisting that Fenris's role in the story is "superficial".

Actually, Addai67 said that:  "His purpose is to be brooding and hot."  My position is that it appears his purpose is to be a foil to Anders and he's not very good at it.  Others have said his purpose is simply to describe Tevinter and Seheron.  I'm open to ideas as to what it was, but I personally don't see it. 

If I wasn't open to explanations, I'd be doing little more than complaining really.

Hekateras wrote...

To be honest, what I think DG may have been referring to is simply a reason to be there. Unlike many of the Origins companions who stick around with you for no good reason at all (Zevran, Wynne, Leliana's excuse of fate and a vision was also pushing it), for Fenris it at least makes sense to be at the heart of the Templar/Mage conflict.

That's possible but "role in the story" doesn't lead me to that interpretation.  I mean if DG came in here and said, "Yes, that's what I meant, a reason for sticking around."  Then I'd nod and be okay with that, even if it was misleading for me I understand that misunderstandings occur.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 04:28 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Actually, Addai67 said that:  "His purpose is to be brooding and hot."  My position is that it appears his purpose is to be a foil to Anders and he's not very good at it.  Others have said his purpose is simply to describe Tevinter and Seheron.  I'm open to ideas as to what it was, but I personally don't see it.

Tongue in cheek, of course.  Though I basically agreed with you that he didn't have as much story relevance as I thought he was going to.  It just doesn't bother me as much as it apparently bothers you.

[Ashera]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

My position is that it appears his purpose is to be a foil to Anders and he's not very good at it.  Others have said his purpose is simply to describe Tevinter and Seheron.  I'm open to ideas as to what it was, but I personally don't see it.

I think in some ways he is a foil for Hawke. Hawke starts off the game with everything Fenris wishes he has (family, home, a reason for being other than just existing), and ends it in basically the same place that Fenris started off (no family, a home that bears tainted memories, and no real raison d'etre except to be Viscount, which s/he may or may not even want).

I am kind of waffle-y on the viscount thing, as I am very unsure it is a reward. The look on Hawke's face when the Templars drop to their knees is very much less than thrilled; if you go the mage route, well, they're on the run. S/He did become the viscount/ess for at least a short timeif you go the Templar route (my own Hawke was appalled, however), but that is my own head canon). I guess Hawke can intimate at one point to Orsino/Meredith that s/he will take over being the viscount? What happens there?