55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Sanctuary74]

Christmas only has one more hour where I'm at.

I was hoping for some sort of Christmas reveal, even just a wee bit of info.

[zambixi]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I'm trying to think what actor looks most like Fenris...

To me, his face reminds me of a young Rufus Sewell when the actor was in his twenties-early thirties. If the actor straightened his hair, dyed it, went tanning, and wore green eye contacts.

I can see it!  Though, Fenris' face is a bit more narrow.  I guess that's the elfiness.

[HolyJellyfish]

zambixi wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I'm trying to think what actor looks most like Fenris...

To me, his face reminds me of a young Rufus Sewell when the actor was in his twenties-early thirties. If the actor straightened his hair, dyed it, went tanning, and wore green eye contacts.

I can see it!  Though, Fenris' face is a bit more narrow.  I guess that's the elfiness.

When he was in his twenties, Rufus Sewell had a pretty thin face. However, anything you google now is when he's thirty-five and older. That was when his career launched and fame stood at this door step, but he has still kept his unique facial structure.

[La_Duchessa]

DalishAssassin wrote...

Christmas only has one more hour where I'm at.
I was hoping for some sort of Christmas reveal, even just a wee bit of info.

I was too, but Christmas has been and gone for me...
and boxing day has almost too...

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

maselphie wrote...

If you want to know the base line of what's so irritable about former lovers, here it is: We want to feel special. Plain and simple. No secret meanings. No backwards message. We want to be special to the one we love. They don't have to be a virgin, but we don't want to hear about how another woman has changed their life completely. That's our job. That's why we're the protagonist. Talking about another lover who is way more specialer to them makes it seem like we are not as special as that other person. At best, we have the same impact on them. That is not special. That's ... the opposite.

I respectfully disagree with your entire post. I don't my PC to be that special, I would like him/her to be part of another character's history that stretches on before and after the window of time that is the game, a history that includes any number of other partners and lovers and friends and foes-- even after my character's time with him/her is over. Isn't that what makes a character feel like a person instead of somebody's creation? Doesn't have to end in some kind of sparkly, eternal, monogamous, married with offspring ideal, either*. And I would feel very strange to change/enlighten/"awaken"/impact/save an NPC in a way so significant that they might as well have their 'gratitude' and 'love' wires crossed.

* (Not that you described that -- it's just my opinion on the matter. IMO marriage and babeez = fantasy romance fail.**)

** (Unless it's Alistair.)

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Leonia]

maselphie wrote...
If you want to know the base line of what's so irritable about former lovers, here it is: We want to feel special. Plain and simple. No secret meanings. No backwards message. We want to be special to the one we love. They don't have to be a virgin, but we don't want to hear about how another woman has changed their life completely. That's our job. That's why we're the protagonist. Talking about another lover who is way more specialer to them makes it seem like we are not as special as that other person. At best, we have the same impact on them. That is not special. That's ... the opposite.

Wow, speak for yourself. Even if the PC is your character, the game isn't about *you*. There are larger things going on beyond your character. I hate to use the cliche but.. these aren't dating sims. The romances are there to give you a closer connection to some characters but they aren't designed to appease your every whim and desire.

If anything, I found the romance in Origins to be about making the LI feel special, not so much the other way around. In pursuing the romance and establishing that close connection with that other character.. it sort of brings your own character to life. I suspect with a voiced protagonist in DA 2 that we won't have to worry about feeling so detached from our character (well, certainly there will be less freedom in deciding who Hawke is but I don't imagine it will be much different than playing as someone like Shepard) so romances won't feel so "needed" as they did in Origins.

I guess.. I view it as icing on the cake really. Hey there's this attractive character in this game and Bioware is letting me get to know them more than the other characters, that's pretty cool. But this only works as long as it makes sense for my character to do that and it adds something meaningful other than "fanservice".

And indeed.. if a relationship is all about YOU feeling special.. it's never going to feel like a real, organic relationship and that just reeks of selfishness and a lack of understanding of the needs and wants of the character you are romancing. NPCs might be scripted characters on the screen, but their feelings matter too. They are just as real as your PC, don't treat them like they are just game mechanics thrown in for the lols. They aren't there to please you. The game is about them, your character, the interactions between them and your character, and the overall world where the conflict and story is going on.

I'm sorry if having "former lovers" makes you feel less special but that just sounds really one-dimensional to me. Do you care about other characters other than your own? If not, why are you romancing them? If yes, then why do you not care about their past or the events that made them the way they are?

Modifié par leonia42, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[tankgirly]

@maselphie, I am afraid I have to agree with David and the other on this one. Yes, we are the the protagonist in game, but that doesn't give us the privilege of being someone who change our love one's life completely



Former lover? No problem, bring it on. Surprise me.

[La_Duchessa]

I don't mind either way... It's cool if you're the 'first' for said LI but is also cool if you're not, but ultimately, it won't matter because it's not us who decides... the writers do.

[Saraphial]

I really don't mind the whole "former lover" thing, I think it adds depth to a character. I mean come on, who hasn't had a former lover unless you're fifteen or Alistair? The only thing that ever bothered me was that it seemed like with some of the LI's that do have former lovers they aren't over them yet, and so they come to you and cry on your shoulder about it and compare you to however glorious/beautiful/wonderful said former woman was. Now, maybe it's just me, but realistically, I would NEVER talk about how much I care about someone from my past to a person I'm romantically interested in, because it just screams "You're a replacement!". But hey, maybe I'm just weird or something, I don't know.

[ro0st3r]

I don't mind the whole former lover thing. I don't see how that detracts from making the main character feel special in any way. Personally, I like to know that a LI has had a life that's not yet known to me and the fact that he/she trusts the character enough to open that part of his/her life to me makes me special. I mean... makes the MAIN character feel special. =p

Modifié par ro0st3r, 26 décembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[tankgirly]

ro0st3r wrote...

I don't mind the whole former lover thing. I don't see how that detracts from making the main character feel less special in any way. Personally, I like to know that a LI has had a life that's not yet known to me and the fact that he/she trusts the character enough to open that part of his/her life to me makes me special. I mean... makes the MAIN character feel special. =p

Hello, roo. Good to see you on BSN! 

[maselphie]

leonia42 wrote...
I'm sorry if having "former lovers" makes you feel less special but that just sounds really one-dimensional to me. Do you care about other characters other than your own? If not, why are you romancing them? If yes, then why do you not care about their past or the events that made them the way they are?

I was just explaining why having the "former lovers" device in most all of your romances is a turn off after a while. I certainly don't mind it individually, but doing it over and over is a problem. Why are people turned off by it? I gave it a stab. When it comes to love, people are by far the most diverse in opinions, of course.

Let me address your sentiments, however.

News flash! Love is selfish. Wynne told us herself in the game. I can't remember it word for word, but she said that love is wanting someone to devote their self to one person entirely. 

Yes, I care about other characters than my own. I also care about myself as a player and buyer of these games. When it comes down to a virtual character vs. myself as a real human being, I'm going to choose myself. You would, too. If a game is not fun to play, you're not going to play it. "But think about the lost characters who are going to misss yoooou!" is not an argument towards playing a game that didn't interest you.The character is not a real person whose feelings I'm hurting. This is a game. That may be a problem with a lack of immersion or role-playing, but it's not one dimensional. If I told someone to shove their backstory in real life, I would be a shallow person, I agree. Yet! If someone in RL whom I wish to date, or wishes to date me, starts talking about other girls he fancies (be it great ex-girlfriends, past sexual conquests, the number of girls that flirted with him that day) in front of me -- to me -- I'll be greatly turned off. Please don't pretend that you wouldn't either, and if you don't that sounds extremely desperate. Playing up other girls in front of a potential mate is a problem. Either they love drama and making you jealous, or they're completely oblivious to its effects.

Discussing one's history and pains and troubles is natural and should be encouraged in relationships. I'm not arguing against this. Not even arguing against discussing past relationships. What I'm arguing is the repeated tactic of making such troubles a perfect woman who the character loved, thought they loved, or would have loved given the chance in my games that call this my romance path. Once, it's fine. Twice, that's weird, but okay. Three times, I'm sick of it and I'm tired of paying people to write something that turns me off.  How many "former lover" backstories have YOU sat through? If it's less than six, than count yourself lucky and officially not in my shoes.

That is why I don't care about their former lovers. I'm sick of them being used in my romance stories as a quick way to deepen them, and as I suspect, to supposedly make us like them more because we see they were capable of twu wuv. Where you would expect  an epic game where YOU are the main character to be about YOUR true love.

This is observation on a non-diegetic plane. As me, the player, not the character.

tankgirly wrote...

@maselphie, I am afraid I have to agree with David and the other on this one. Yes, we are the the protagonist in game, but that doesn't give us the privilege of being someone who change our love one's life completely

I'm not disagreeing with David. I was pointing out that he's misunderstanding the adversity to yet another former lover sad plot point. There's been one in almost every male LI from here to KOTOR. Enough already, will ya? Sometimes a gal just wants to have someone love her and not 2 girls at once. Is that so much to freakin' ask?

Argue that for a real person, and I'll agree with you. Arguing it for characters that are purported to be carefully designed and conceptualized to float my boat doesn't phase me in the least. I love them as characters, but as soon as you label a part of their story as "you ladies love that, don't you?" I can clearly and loudly, say, "Nope." One can get tired of settling for virtual characters that make you struggle to like them, even though they are supposed to be inherently likeable. Your tastes will vary, of course.

But I find your statement tantalizing. What are the privileges of being the protagonist, if not being special? Why become a Grey Warden? Why didn't I just die in the ceremony? Why did I have to kill the Archdemon? Why do I lead the group? Why do all the NPCs talk to me? Why will one character be on the box art? Why do two characters fall in love with me and not the other characters in the party? How come when I attempt to romance one of them, it will succeed if I don't outright insult them? Why does every character have a sex scene, regardless of their personality? Why is it always good sex? Why am I ever, ever special? We may never know.

(I won't post again so this thread is not off-topic.)

Modifié par maselphie, 26 décembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[Ceridwen]

DalishAssassin wrote...

Christmas only has one more hour where I'm at.
I was hoping for some sort of Christmas reveal, even just a wee bit of info.

They totally psyched me out by stickying this thread. Rather anticlimactic.

[HolyJellyfish]

maselphie wrote...

News flash! Love is selfish. Wynne told us herself in the game. I can't remember it word for word, but she said that love is wanting someone to devote their self to one person entirely. 

The characters I've come across who have had former lovers/relationships/lives still devote themselves. But I don't like to define their loyalty or the quality of their character based on this past. To me, that comes across as shallow.

Yes, I care about other characters than my own. I also care about myself as a player and buyer of these games. When it comes down to a virtual character vs. myself as a real human being, I'm going to choose myself. You would, too. If a game is not fun to play, you're not going to play it. "But think about the lost characters who are going to misss yoooou!" is not an argument towards playing a game that didn't interest you.The character is not a real person whose feelings I'm hurting. This is a game. That may be a problem with a lack of immersion or role-playing, but it's not one dimensional. If I told someone to shove their backstory in real life, I would be a shallow person, I agree. Yet! If someone in RL whom I wish to date, or wishes to date me, starts talking about other girls he fancies (be it great ex-girlfriends, past sexual conquests, the number of girls that flirted with him that day) in front of me -- to me -- I'll be greatly turned off. Please don't pretend that you wouldn't either, and if you don't that sounds extremely desperate. Playing up other girls in front of a potential mate is a problem. Either they love drama and making you jealous, or they're completely oblivious to its effects.

But why would you rate the quality of a game or a character based on a past relationship? You don't have control over those elements. Like your PC, you can either accept this background or ignore them. I don't think its fair to rate the quality of a game whether or not a specific character you want to romance had a bad past involving another lover (dead or otherwise.

There are other LIs who don't fit that profile, in the same game. Go for them instead.

I would only consider it a problem if every single LI had the same background in the same game. But they don't. This is only a question of a single character with issues that don't jive with you.

Discussing one's history and pains and troubles is natural and should be encouraged in relationships. I'm not arguing against this. Not even arguing against discussing past relationships. What I'm arguing is the repeated tactic of making such troubles a perfect woman who the character loved, thought they loved, or would have loved given the chance in my games that call this my romance path. Once, it's fine. Twice, that's weird, but okay. Three times, I'm sick of it and I'm tired of paying people to write something that turns me off.  How many "former lover" backstories have YOU sat through? If it's less than six, than count yourself lucky and officially not in my shoes.

I don't recall there ever being more than just one former lover story in any given game, with an LI. If you didn't like one, go for the other.

That is why I don't care about their former lovers. I'm sick of them being used in my romance stories as a quick way to deepen them, and as I suspect, to supposedly make us like them more because we see they were capable of twu wuv. Where you would expect  an epic game where YOU are the main character to be about YOUR true love.

This is observation on a non-diegetic plane. As me, the player, not the character.

A quick way to deepen them? I politely disagree with this statement, and its insulting to the writer. A character with a tragic history is much more difficult to write than one that isn't, especially if their former relationship may have negatively impacted the way they might connect with others (Distance issues comes to mind). What is it that makes your PC so special, that character is willing to drop their barriers and talk to you? Its trickier ground, than say conveying Alistair's romance in which he essentially is a tabula rasa.

I'm not disagreeing with David. I was pointing out that he's misunderstanding the adversity to yet another former lover sad plot point. There's been one in almost every male LI from here to KOTOR. Enough already, will ya? Sometimes a gal just wants to have someone love her and not 2 girls at once. Is that so much to freakin' ask?

Again. I've only seen this happen to one male LI in every game or so. There are plenty of other Male LI that do not have this issue or the relationship ended amicably. Garrus, Alistair, and Jacob are a few to name. I am sure there are others. I know there was one in KOTOR 2. Again. Optional.

Argue that for a real person, and I'll agree with you. Arguing it for characters that are purported to be carefully designed and conceptualized to float my boat doesn't phase me in the least. I love them as characters, but as soon as you label a part of their story as "you ladies love that, don't you?" I can clearly and loudly, say, "Nope." One can get tired of settling for virtual characters that make you struggle to like them, even though they are supposed to be inherently likeable. Your tastes will vary, of course.

Yes, but your PC is also just another character, and those characters aren't purported to float your boat. It is Bioware's story, and if you don't like one character, you can go to the next one. It is that easy.

If the former lover thing bugs you so much, move onto another character and don't let it bother you.

What gets on my nerves is when fans want ONE particular character based on their appearance / background / personality / whatever, and they attach these fantasies of what that character SHOULD be (especially if they are LI). And then when that character turns around and disappoints the fans for whatever reason (in this case, the possibility of a former lover), people gripe, complain, whine, and groan.

You say 'I dislike the former lover trope! It is overused!'

And I'm hearing 'I only want to romance Fenris and if he has a former lover, that's not fair! It ruins my fantasy!'

I personally find that tacky and shallow, especially when it comes down to telling the writer that it is THEIR problem and not yours that the character you wanna love isn't up to your par. You don't like that aspect? Romance someone else. There is always someone else to romance.

I am excited about Fenris, regardless whether or not he has this background. And if it irritates me like it did Thane and Zevran, I will happily seek out the other option whom I know won't have that dead lover issue. It'll be a happy trade.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Ninja Mage]

WHat if Fenris is a...VIRGIN! ~blush~



Will hawke have to teach him how to tango? lol

[QueenOfFerelden]

Hi everyone, anything new?



@Ninja Mage: A virgin? I don`t know... To be honest I don`t think that he`s still a virgin.

[Leonia]

Well said, HolyJellyfish!

[ankuu]

We won't find out anything too soon...There is a thread where people accused that they didn't reveal the info they promised and Chris got angry:

Chris Priestly wrote...

You HAD a lot of new information. I'm sorry it wasn't good enough for some of you. For those who appreciated it, thanks. If you wanted more or different or whatever, guess what? You get to wait for what we come out with next.

[maselphie]

You seem to be misinterpreting me. I don't judge a character solely on their "loyalty to me," and not even by their romance path alone. Assuming that I do, and putting words in my mouth, is more questionable morally than anything I have posted. I have never once posted in this thread before, or even said the word Fenris. Sounds like you're "rudely putting someone in the spotlight" ... but don't worry, I'm sound enough in my beliefs to not be threatened by it.

I don't think less of Carth, or Kaiden, or Zevran, or Thane, or any other people on the list. I get turned off. You even agree! And after twenty times of being turned off, after so many times of having to swallow the medicine that is given to me while I watch my male counterparts get no-strings-attached LI after LI, the medicine tastes bitter and I start to gag. I'm cautious in trying medicine in general. It is not about my character liking another character, it's not about ME liking any character. It's about us as people in the real world dealing with a company that makes a living giving us something fun to play. This is TOTALLY not the right thread for this, if it weren't the ONLY place I've seen David address Carth Syndrome, I'd have never said anything, bought DA2, and loved it (probably). I really want to stop replying, as I've said my peace, I do ... so ... no more personal attacks and I'll shush. We can like different things, and we can say it publicly. I'm not forcing you to conform to my personal taste, but you are insulting me by using my taste unfoundedly against me.

Telling me to shrug my shoulders and move on is what I am doing. (Despite the fact there has been ONE male LI in a lot of these games, to where I simply cannot "move on".) What do you think I am doing that must be so coldly scolded? I posted a couple times on this forum with my personal opinion? I respect Gaider, but I don't respect using the same plot device over and over like a bad habit. It should be okay for me to respect a person but have criticisms as well. Saying a certain writer's work is not open for discussion seems authoritarian on a public forum about the writing. But I wasn't even personally addressing David, but the rest of you are making it so. He's surely not responsible for every character with this backstory, and if he is, then there is some sort of conspiracy or huge misunderstanding on his part ... o_O Which I doubt. Well. He does seem a little sadistic. xD

OMG I JOKE U GUYZ

If Fenris turned out to be a Carth clone (which is not happening), voiced by the same guy too, I'd still play it through. And I'd still play the game because I liked the RPG. Because as Chris so fervently tells us: it's not a dating sim! Haha.

Modifié par maselphie, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[tankgirly]

No, nothing.

[HolyJellyfish]

maselphie wrote...

You seem to be misinterpreting me. I don't judge a character solely on their "loyalty to me," and not even by their romance path alone. Assuming that I do, and putting words in my mouth, is more questionable morally than anything I have posted. I have never once posted in this thread before, or even said the word Fenris. Sounds like you're "rudely putting someone in the spotlight" ... but don't worry, I'm sound enough in my beliefs to not be threatened by it.

I don't think less of Carth, or Kaiden, or Zevran, or Thane, or any other people on the list. I get turned off. You even agree!

So I didn't romance them and I happily held hands with someone else instead of thinking it was a consistent problem, which I don't think it is. But that depends on the player's opinion, it seems.

And after twenty times of being turned off, after so many times of having to swallow the medicine that is given to me while I watch my male counterparts get no-strings-attached LI after LI, the medicine tastes bitter and I start to gag. I'm cautious in trying medicine in general. It is not about my character liking another character, it's not about ME liking any character. It's about us as people in the real world dealing with a company that makes a living giving us something fun to play. This is TOTALLY not the right thread for this, if it weren't the ONLY place I've seen David address Carth Syndrome, I'd have never said anything, bought DA2, and loved it (probably). I really want to stop replying, as I've said my peace, I do ... so ... no more personal attacks and I'll shush. We can like different things, and we can say it publicly. I'm not forcing you to conform to my personal taste, but you are insulting me by using my taste unfoundedly against me.

Maybe so or maybe not. But it is my feeling that ever since this thread has been created, one person or another has complained about whether or not Fenris will be an LI with a dead lover - so it is bound to be discussed on this thread within topic.

Telling me to shrug my shoulders and move on is what I am doing. (Despite the fact there has been ONE male LI in a lot of these games, to where I simply cannot "move on".) What do you think I am doing that must be so coldly scolded? I posted a couple times on this forum with my personal opinion? I respect Gaider, but I don't respect using the same plot device over and over like a bad habit.

It was never my intention to scold. I apologize if my posts were sensed to be so.

An LI who is a virgin is also a repeated plot device, but I don't hear anyone complaining. Former-killers-redeeming-themselves is also a familiar plot device. I hear no one complaining. There is also a lot of anti-social-i-hate-people-and-am-distant characters in all these games and they are plot devices, but no complaining. The only complaints I've heard involve former past relationships, only one of which draws comparison to the PC. For some reason, this one gets special attention, and it always comes down to the player's taste in how they want their LI to behave. But that isn't their responsibility. Their responsibility is to their PCs personalities, not dictating how LIs should behave based on overused plot devices or other wise. Especially when options are available.

If you are going to complain about this being an overused plot device, then why not draw attention to all of them?

It should be okay for me to respect a person but have criticisms as well. Saying a certain writer's work is not open for discussion seems authoritarian on a public forum about the writing. But I wasn't even personally addressing David, but the rest of you are making it so. He's surely not responsible for every character with this backstory, and if he is, then there is some sort of conspiracy or huge misunderstanding on his part ... o_O Which I doubt. Well. He does seem a little sadistic. xD

OMG I JOKE U GUYZ

If Fenris turned out to be a Carth clone, voice by the same bastard too, I'd still play it through. And I'd still play the game because I liked the RPG. Because as Chris so fervently tells us: it's not a dating sim! Haha.

Gaider does take criticism well, but the way critique has been tossed at him causes some stress to me where I'd rather get his insight about Fenris' character rather than defensive commentaries where he seems to be less inclined to share information based on the threat of negative backlash by the fans. Its frustrating to me, and to a lot of fans here who really just want to know more and are being fed less due to this negative atmosphere created by a few people.

I don't doubt you'd play him, but the air needs to be cleared between Anti-Former-Lover camp and the I-Really-Don't-Care camp. We all want a piece of Fenris, but the best way to get more info about Fenris is to stop seething about the possibility that he may not fulfill our 'fantasies' of him. That seems to scare Gaider away and gives us less insight.

So let's hold hands, stop talking about how Fenris COULD disappoint us, and talk about how Fenris will excite us.

That is my point

[HolyJellyfish]

Mind you, the negative atmosphere comment is not to suggest it is anyone's intention to create that atmosphere. I am suggesting it is unintended, and we need to pay attention to this. The more positive we are, the more likely we will have our questions answered and curiosity quenched as we wait for more official details.



That is my point Enthusiasm and expectations can often blind our actions. I am guilty of this, naturally. Be aware, and we will be happy.

[maselphie]

Okay, you're right. Stop living in the past. If our feedback has turned irritating and is indeed spoiling the thread (and not just "you're not a fangirl, so don't exist"), then it's perhaps time we trust in him and other writers to bring us new and thrilling territory. Fenris is, after all, barely revealed outside of a few details and I'm sure Gaider is frustrated with how much he is not allowed to prove us wrong yet.

HolyJellyfish wrote...

If you are going to complain about this being an overused plot device, then why not draw attention to all of them?

Because those other ones don't make me feel insecure and fighting to be loved in my own fantasy. And trust me ... if he made any person several times in a row, I'd question it as well.

Modifié par maselphie, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Eorion_Moonwing]

I find new elven eyes(huge, great-cat like iris that leave practically no white seen) and noses(straight from the eyebrows) shown on Fenris screenshots very interesting and unique.



And in bother me somehow that all fan-art in this tread, while great, picture him without any of this non human features added to the elves in DA2 and still almost-100%-human-with-pointy-ears like it were in DAO. I have nothing against it, I am just interested in the "why it so" as for me the change for the lees human elves were more than welcome.

[HolyJellyfish]

Eorion_Moonwing wrote...

I find new elven eyes(huge, great-cat like iris that leave practically no white seen) and noses(straight from the eyebrows) shown on Fenris screenshots very interesting and unique.

And in bother me somehow that all fan-art in this tread, while great, picture him without any of this non human features added to the elves in DA2 and still almost-100%-human-with-pointy-ears like it were in DAO. I have nothing against it, I am just interested in the "why it so" as for me the change for the lees human elves were more than welcome.

Huh! I never thought of it that way. I just assumed Fenris was just physically characterized that way because he was Fenris, not necessarily because he's an elf.

Interesting....