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[nebezial]

hmm well here is my opinion about it, fenris is observant, he hates magisters from his hometown because most of them turn to blood magic and abuse the slaves, also he hates mages who will make deals with the demons, thus he doesent take fondly of anders or merril.

i agree its a little odd that if you as hawke decide to make deals with a demon in a fade or take knowledge from those evil books, fenris will still be open for romance. but real world is full of options, you CAN fall in love with someone who is completly opposite from your viewpoints, it doesent mean the romance will work out in the end tho XD

as for the reason for sticking around, if i was him i would do the same, find a powerfull group that will aid and guard my back. thats what he did with those marsh warriors, he was sticking around until danarius found him, too bad he wasnt emotionally stable enough to oppose him.
thats mostly what i like about fenris, you can see how he evolves as the time goes by, his opinions are still there but he becomes more flexible in a way.

[upsettingshorts]

Evolution? He agrees to work with mages - even Anders if he is there - after clearing Danarius' mansion shortly after you meet him. He says he'll keep an eye on them when he does so, and I never get the impression he changes that approach, with possibly the sole exception of Hawke.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Laurelinde]

Warning, wall of text incoming.

Just to devil's advocate a little here...

I've only played the game through once (albeit quite thoroughly, and reloading some conversation points after I finished to see how other lines played out), so I'm not as much of an 'expert' as some of the rest of you will be.  But my feeling, having finished the game, is that if you want a character who doesn't feel like they have much of a purpose or a hook, look to Hawke. 

I think some of it is probably just because the standard conceit of fantasy games and rpgs in general where the player is The Most Important Person In The World somehow or other was kind of turned on its head in DA2 - my feeling is that we were never meant to be the protagonist of the story; Anders was, for this bit of it.  How it all plays into the larger story taking place (ie whatever is going on with the disappearing heroes, why the Chantry Seekers are looking for them, what the blazes Flemeth and Morrigan are, and are up to, and Sandal....just...everything about him), we don't know yet. 

But for the self-contained story of DA2 and Kirkwall, Anders is really at the heart of the story because he brings the conflict between Orsino and Meredith, Chantry and Circle, to a head.  Hawke is made Champion, sure, but is never marked out as child of a god or last of a race/clan/group or imbued with some gift or item that means he/she is the person who has to save the world.  Hell, the world doesn't even really need saving per se, although it could use some fixing in places.

As far as playing the game went, though, I felt less...effective, maybe?  Heroic?  I felt like I was accomplishing less than I did in DA:O, or other similar games.  Some of this might be related to the gameplay aspects (returning someone's lost pantaloons is not heroic), but some of it was the story itself.  For me, Hawke wasn't the driving force behind any of the major events that happened, and I felt like once I got my family safely into Kirkwall (since they clearly saw me as the family leader), my responsibilities were pretty much finished.  The motivation for going on and doing everything else was basically, "Well...may as well see what happens", rather than "Yes, I must conquer/avenge/improve/rescue/etc." the way things normally are.  And on the one hand, it's refreshing not to be The Chosen One for once, but on the other hand, instead of feeling like my character was actively trying to shape the world around her, my reactions were basically as follows:

Act 1: "...What?  Bartrand, what the hell!!"
Act 2: "...What!?!  Isabella, what the hell!!"
Act 3: "...WHAT!!??!!! *incoherent screaming at Anders' shenanigans and being forced to choose between two dorks*

Hawke could play through never meeting Isabela, and you can tell Anders to take a hike early on.  You can never give Merrill the arulin'holm and thus never finish the mirror (or just kill the demon and leave quietly when asked - not sure how much of all that was bugged and how much was intentional).  Aveline has a position in the city but is only tangentially involved in the major incidents of the city, as the head of the Watch.  The Watch weren't in a position to throw out the qunari or to overrule the Templars, so she hasn't got a lot of real power.  Varric gets you to the Deep Roads, sure, but it's Bartrand's expedition, and Bartrand whose actions shape the end of the game, not Varric's.  And Sebastian I never met because I didn't buy the DLC.  It's shades of grey, but as far as very direct purpose, and influence on the story goes, only Anders really does a lot. 

So, ultimately I agree that Fenris' main purpose seems to be to act as the obvious 'rival' character, to provide the most direct and consistent counterpoint to the pro-mage threads in the story, to balance out the Amell blood/Bethany, Anders, and the player's presumed innate bias towards personal freedom.  For me, though, it doesn't stop him being a strong or interesting character, particularly, because it's the smaller things about him (and the others) that make them feel more real and appealing to me.  Hell, Aveline has kinda become one of my more favourite fictional characters in a good long while, and she's not awfully integral to the plot - she's just a badass warrior who's built like a brick wall and can't flirt for toffee, and will stick by you through anything if you earn her respect.  And she punches darkspawn in the face.

I remember reading before the game came out that Bioware were saying that Hawke would be the most important person in Thedas, far more important than the Warden.  This may well turn out to be true, but at the moment it feels to me like Hawke's importance boils down to being The Guy That Knew A Guy - his/her 'influence' is simpy that s/he (potentially) met, knew or worked with the big players in Kirkwall.  But no offence meant to the guy or his acting, being the Kevin Bacon of Kirkwall didn't feel all that important or purposeful to me.

TLDR: Anders is the central character, Aveline is awesome, the story is very different from standard fantasy fare and thus takes some getting used to, Hawke is Kevin Bacon. 

I doubt anyone read all that so, we now return you to your regularly scheduled Fensquee.  *shuts up at last*

[nebezial]

does he have an option? would he rather be alone again and flee from one place to another, or instead seek out allies to protect him? it is unfortunate and ironic that he is fleeing from a mage, just to be joined in a party with more mages. he starts out selfish seeking revenge.. or closure, and to achieve that sometimes you have to make compromises no matter what your viewpoints are.

[MorningBird]

Laurelinde wrote...
long post

So basically what you're saying is, Fenris is Gary Oak?  

[Sinilin_]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Evolution? He agrees to work with mages - even Anders if he is there - after clearing Danarius' mansion shortly after you meet him. He says he'll keep an eye on them when he does so, and I never get the impression he changes that approach, with possibly the sole exception of Hawke.

I agree. 

(You've a fantastic signature picture. Epic!) 

[Rheia]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I'm still catching up, but I noticed that someone said a couple pages back how it would been interesting ifHawke being a mage was a line Fenris wouldn't cross, and if Hawke was a bloodmage that would be a line Anders wouldn't cross.

I really like that idea. The choices we make REALLY effect our relationships. Could you imagine starting a romance with Anders, then choosing the blood mage spec, and then all of the sudden he's all "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!! YOU ARE A BLOOD MAGE THIS CAN'T HAPPEN! GTFO!!" Oh, the drama!! Or if you start a mage, thinking you'll romance Fenris, then DENIED!

I kind of love this idea. Our choices become a bit more impactful to our PCs personal story. And it relieves a lot of hand-waving.

I thought I'd respond to something that bothered me in this discussion.

With all due respect, I  strongly disagree with the quote. While the idea of having a line a character would not cross has merit: and Anders does break up with a protagonist over something he considers henious enough  (one of the Feynriel outcomes in the fade), I don't for a second consider Fenris' breaking point to be 'OMG! Mage!'.

If anything, it'd be a lot more plausible if Hawke showed signs of indulging in slavery (Orana, as a slave in the mansion), or using magic in the manner Tevinter magisters would: (remember how in Origins a slaver offers to use the life of prisoner elves for a ritual that gives + attribute points?)

But Hawke simply being something he/she had no choice over? No. Just no. Even making pro-mage choices (while obviously yelding high rivalry) has a distinction of making something happen due to belief it is right, and not  for a power grab, or sadistic tendency to wish people to suffer. I think Fenris could respect the conviction behind the pro-mage acts, even when voicing his reservations/frustration at the possible consequences  (as he does in game).

Would more tension/discussion about it be welcome? Sure, and there is an extra bit about it during his recruitment. But considering  the whole relationship spans in the matter of handful of on-screen conversations, I don't think it is fair to judge the amount of actual tension by what we see.

Modifié par Rheia, 21 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[Addai]

Laurelinde wrote...

TLDR: Anders is the central character, Aveline is awesome, the story is very different from standard fantasy fare and thus takes some getting used to, Hawke is Kevin Bacon. 

I doubt anyone read all that so, we now return you to your regularly scheduled Fensquee.  *shuts up at last*

Kevin Bacon?  lol

All well said.  But, "Hawke is not significant" is a bit controversial.

OTOH I did love that sarcastic Hawke is such a dork that she induces facepalms wherever she goes.  That was refreshing.

[nightscrawl]

Laurelinde wrote...

Act 1: "...What?  Bartrand, what the hell!!"
Act 2: "...What!?!  Isabella, what the hell!!"
Act 3: "...WHAT!!??!!! *incoherent screaming at Anders' shenanigans and being forced to choose between two dorks*

Lollllll

So, ultimately I agree that Fenris' main purpose seems to be to act as the obvious 'rival' character, to provide the most direct and consistent counterpoint to the pro-mage threads in the story, to balance out the Amell blood/Bethany, Anders, and the player's presumed innate bias towards personal freedom.  For me, though, it doesn't stop him being a strong or interesting character, particularly, because it's the smaller things about him (and the others) that make them feel more real and appealing to me.

I too find Fenris interesting. Actually, I think most of the companions were really well developed, especially if you combine DAA Anders with DA2 Anders.

It's very interesting that you mention "personal freedom" in that way, because it's a goal that both Fenris and Anders share. Now, we know that they despise each other (if you are romancing Fenris and go into the sewers with Anders for the Sela Petrae, Anders will actually ask if you are "sure about Fenris," and say that seems more like a "wild dog than a man," - my jaw hit the floor when I saw this the first time), but I think this is the one thing they have in common.

I'm sure Fenris would disagree, as Anders tries to convince Fenris that mages "are slaves" and Fenris should "want to help them." Fenris coldly rebuffing the assertion with "I don't" was very telling to me. And I must admit, compared to what I know of slavery, from the real world and from the game world, Anders is an idiot and deluded to say mages are such. He has no idea what true slavery is. They may be oppressed yes, but they are not "slaves." (The ones in Kirkwall aren't anyway.)

It's been mentioned before, but I feel that I should again: party banter goes such a long way in this game to make the characters seem real, as if they have independent thought and concerns outside of Hawke and the troubles s/he gets in. They do, and we can hear it. It's amazing, really. I think the banter is even more important in DA2 than in DAO actually. In DAO the banter often revolved around humorous or personality issues. In DA2 a lot of it concerns aspects of the story. These characters talk about serious things, some of which I wish were longer than a few exchanges.

[Lady Jess]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Hekateras wrote...

She's not just the one mage that will make him look past the mage thing. She's also the first (and really only) person to really reach out to him and come to accept and cherish or respect him for who he is, not for how fast he can chop up enemies. Fenris *needs* that, whether as a friend or rival. Hawke is the first one he meets who really treats him like a person, at the very least like an equal. It's not difficult to understand how one can fall in love with that.

After the years of oppression under mages, and his deep-seeded hate for mages, yes, I find it difficult to understand.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.  I am saying for me, personally, I don't see it happening, and therefore will never RP that way.  Which lead into the thought, "Hey, it would be neat is our different classes, specs, and decisions *really* effected our relationships."

I did it on my first mage just to do it. I thought haha mage hate, this is ironic. Then...blah. Deleted the mage after the playthrough because it had no tension even on the rivalry path (I am disappoint). And unlike many of my Origins  playthroughs that I finishd with a little smile I was just sitting here going ok...now what?

Started a new one. I have kept Fen in my party nearly all of act 1.  RAWR! Mage, BOO!! MAGE I HATE MAGES Dude, I'm a mage, my sister was a mage, my father was a mage. And Him + Carver I'm wishing Hawke could turn around a freeze them both sometimes.  Too bad Fenris doesn't flirt first and WE get the chance to say GTFO with that crap,  you bashed me for years!

That being said, maybe my rogue will have better luck, because I notice he's very nice to Bethany. I don't care if it's a "present company (Hawke/Bethany) excluded" thing with Fenris . All that mage hate when you're not bblinded by the hot voice and sexy brooding can be offensive...and there's nothing you  can do about it.

[Shacary]

I gotta agree with Hekataras, essentially being stoic and distrustful [ im paraphrasign freely as I interpreted it] does not mean a person doesnt desire affection and love. I look at it as kindness melting the ice. I mean good grief ALL living things desire companionship and love. its in our natures!
Also as to the revelence.. well I didnt particularly think anything HAwke choose made any difference, siding with either faction certainly didnt change the outcome etc. I didnt even speak to Isabela in one PT [ cant stand her sorry all, talk abotu a one dimensional character?!!!!] and the story went on just like it did when i tried to choose...
SO I might submit that it was akin to a video that we cruised thru and one page changed but always came to the next chapter regardless of intent. So I dont think importance of characters can be really eschewed imo.
I foudn His character to haev unexpected depths and I truly was not liking ANY of the companions, the first PT. I find it believable in most contexts and again I dont limit the possibilities of " what could be" with our own bias on " what should be" . all those things are subjective to our own experiences, If you only ever met Poor folks that were illiterate , that person might infer only the poor are such.... its subjective.
I dont mind discussign it I just dont have the eloquence that most of you have, im sure it didnt come out right as I meant it to say O well!
ENjoying the thread as always guys! Wish FB would load for me, cant get in the meg group discussions, DARN mozilla and IE! lol

[ipgd]

Laurelinde wrote...

TLDR: Anders is the central character, Aveline is awesome, the story is very different from standard fantasy fare and thus takes some getting used to, Hawke is Kevin Bacon. 

I pretty much agree with your analysis, though I am more of the opinion that Hawke's role as the supporting protagonist/Ishmael to Anders is sort of brilliant and part of the reason why I love the game so much because I'm a huge VIDEOGAMES ARE ART snob and I like when developers purposefully screw with our expectations and and and

about that fenris

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...

Laurelinde wrote...

TLDR: Anders is the central character, Aveline is awesome, the story is very different from standard fantasy fare and thus takes some getting used to, Hawke is Kevin Bacon. 

I pretty much agree with your analysis, though I am more of the opinion that Hawke's role as the supporting protagonist/Ishmael to Anders is sort of brilliant and part of the reason why I love the game so much because I'm a huge VIDEOGAMES ARE ART snob and I like when developers purposefully screw with our expectations and and and

about that fenris

Yeah, I think not being able to care that much about Anders is a big handicap in enjoying the game.  I suppose that in Origins it would be the same if you didn't care about Alistair and Morrigan.

[Helen0rz]

Laurelinde wrote...

<snip wall of text>

Nice analysis and I must say...I felt the same towards the end of the game. I remember on my first pt (romancing Anders too) and sided with the mages...and after the epilogue I felt like a deflated baloon. Hawke may have been an important part to Thedas history and she might be more important than Warden but I didn't feel that way. I think this is the first RPG I've ever played where I felt completely helpless, where everything I've done didn't change anything; the inevitable was going to happen regardless of my actions. 

And like you said, Anders is the main focus here and of course we didn't see that till he actually done something...

[phyreblade74]

ipgd wrote...

I'm not saying he couldn't be "well adjusted" after his experiences, just that his actions don't seem to jive with how he himself seems to perceive it. When he talks about it, he makes it sound like it's something he thinks was horrible, true torment, that it consumes his life and he's constantly suffering because of it, etc. etc. -- but the way he acts and carries himself socially don't reflect that. Like he's... dramatizing its effects on him when he talks about it. Which I guess is possible, but was that really the writer's intent?

Again, if his dialogue about his life as a slave reflected his actual actions and mannerisms, and enforced an idea that he was troubled-but-coping, I'd be less confused.

I tend to think Fenris will describe his life for what it's been, it's been god-awful, yes.  And he does have very real issues, he's angry, bitter, and scared, and it shows.  He projects that, it's obvious.  Does that mean he's nuts and reeling and falling apart -- no.  In fact, he's growing, changing every day, seeing beyond the pain.  I think he understands all along that his experiences as a slave were bad, they were awful, but that's because they were "wrong" and his future doesn't have to be.

That's why I like him as much as I do, I think.  Unlike Anders, Fenris has never once lost sight of his HOPE for BETTER.  Anders gives up, rather.

[Laurelinde]

Addai67 wrote...

Laurelinde wrote...

TLDR: Anders is the central character, Aveline is awesome, the story is very different from standard fantasy fare and thus takes some getting used to, Hawke is Kevin Bacon. 

I doubt anyone read all that so, we now return you to your regularly scheduled Fensquee.  *shuts up at last*

Kevin Bacon?  lol

All well said.  But, "Hawke is not significant" is a bit controversial.

OTOH I did love that sarcastic Hawke is such a dork that she induces facepalms wherever she goes.  That was refreshing.

Well, I wouldn't say Hawke isn't significant at all, s/he's just...as important because of circumstances, being in the 'right' place at the right time and knowing the movers and shakers, as it were, as because of great heroic acts (duelling the Arishok to save the town, for example).  Mainly it just occured to me that Hawke got tied into a lot of the big plot threads by being associated or a companion of someone, and the thought of playing Six Degrees of Hawke amused me. 

I don't really mind that Hawke felt a lot less ...on fire to save the world than my Cousland did, although it did make some bits of the story feel less compelling and emotional to play.  But the choice to take the Dark Ritual damn near broke my heart as it was because I was so invested in Alistair, so it's probably just as well, really.  I do wish more had been made of the family dynamic in DA2 though, that was another more novel aspect of the story since it's more typical that the Hero is an orphan or otherwise on their own - would have liked more interaction with/from Leandra, for example.

[phyreblade74]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't stay up all night reading this thread, and I had to sleep .  So I'm going to jump in a conversation that happened like 5 pages ago....

I think the one thing that *really* bothers me about Fenris is the fact that he isn't more rage-y if Hawke is a mage.  His hate for mages is so deep-seeded, and it obviously eats at him.  And while he'll tolerate being around Bethany, and barely tolerate Anders and Merrill, he just, what, forgets that Hawke is a mage too?  Maybe a few random comments about it?

You want a Mary Sue/Gary Stu situation, there it is.  Hawke is so awesome/wonderful/sexy/beautiful that Fenris still falls in love with him/her, despite that fact that Hawke is everything that Fenris has grown to hate.  I don't buy it.

It isn't that Fenris hates every single mage there is.  He consistently concedes, in fact, that there are good mages, noble men and women who wouldn't think to abuse their magical abilities to bring harm to those around them.  He recognizes, even, that magic can be used to benefit and help people.  He says so right from the very start, and never backs down from that position. 

What he hates, rather, is the misuse of magic, how it can corrupt mages, how easy it is for mages to fall into the temptation of abuse of their power and ability.  He says magic is dangerous, and, honestly, it is.  I'm still not sure why it's so easy for people to take what he says to mean he just hates mages, as if it's a rule.  But he really never says anything like that, either.

[Helen0rz]

by ~Ziegedrachen
 

[Helen0rz]

 and a few more
we could all do with some more Fenris pics, no?

by ~ann-immortal


by ~Tutchangers

SWOON:wub:

and noooow the funniz!
by ~ehri

[Asdara]

To me it seems like a) Fenris hates magisters, specifically, not every person with magic he owes whoever was going to try to help him take out Danarius the first time they met him, rather big actually, since that same person's influential guard friend is letting you squat in a swanky pad and c) he knows strong mages do exist, and he has time to observe what kind of person Hawke is in addition to being a mage.

So, for me a friendmance with Fenris as mage is realistic - I haven't done the mage rivalmance so I don't know about that one... that one might be a stretch but I'd have to play it through to know.

[SilentK]

Helen0rz wrote...

Laurelinde wrote...

<snip wall of text>

Nice analysis and I must say...I felt the same towards the end of the game. I remember on my first pt (romancing Anders too) and sided with the mages...and after the epilogue I felt like a deflated baloon. Hawke may have been an important part to Thedas history and she might be more important than Warden but I didn't feel that way. I think this is the first RPG I've ever played where I felt completely helpless, where everything I've done didn't change anything; the inevitable was going to happen regardless of my actions. 

And like you said, Anders is the main focus here and of course we didn't see that till he actually done something...

I had the helpless feeling too but that feelt so.... awesome. I remember talking to my husband when I played it blind the first time. Just saying, "I have no idea how to fix this, this can never end well". I really was my poor Hawke at that moment just bumbling through it. Never saw the saltpeter and manure connetion and was in complete chock afterwards. And when Fenris left me in Act 2 I was looking at the scene in complete disbelief. Thought that that was it and went crying to Merrill    =)   I loved it. I can't get the exact same feeling again now that I know the story 2 complete Hawkes later and the 3:rd in Act 2. But I still remember that hopeless feeling of not being in control and just trying to stay above water.

[MelRedux]

SilentK wrote...
I had the helpless feeling too but that feelt so.... awesome. I remember talking to my husband when I played it blind the first time. Just saying, "I have no idea how to fix this, this can never end well". I really was my poor Hawke at that moment just bumbling through it. Never saw the saltpeter and manure connetion and was in complete chock afterwards. And when Fenris left me in Act 2 I was looking at the scene in complete disbelief. Thought that that was it and went crying to Merrill    =)   I loved it. I can't get the exact same feeling again now that I know the story 2 complete Hawkes later and the 3:rd in Act 2. But I still remember that hopeless feeling of not being in control and just trying to stay above water.

I agree completely.  once you know what is going to happen, and how to manipulate it, it's not as fun!  And emotionally draining!!

[nightscrawl]

Laurelinde wrote...

I don't really mind that Hawke felt a lot less ...on fire to save the world than my Cousland did, although it did make some bits of the story feel less compelling and emotional to play.

Hawke was really roped into everything s/he did. Cassandra sums it up perfectly as you head into the Deep Roads: you mean to tell me that s/he had dealings with the Qunari, joined forces with a known raider, a blood mage, a rebel warden, and for what? Coin? Everything else after the Deep Roads falls into place after Hawke moves up into Hightown and gains more notoriety.

I suppose it boils down to how you play your Hawke, but I play mine as trying to prevent Kirkwall from imploding (which ultimately fails.) I really, really try to choose the middle ground in most of the mage/templar quests. Or at least, what I perceive as the morally superior one (punish the bad mages, help the good ones, eliminate the abusive templars,) especially as I see the circle being a necessary evil to some degree; instead of ra-ra mages, or ra-ra templars.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

phyreblade74 wrote...

That's why I like him as much as I do, I think.  Unlike Anders, Fenris has never once lost sight of his HOPE for BETTER.  Anders gives up, rather.

I got the impression he ilves every day like his freedom is a dream and he was preparing to wake up from it. (Among other somewhat contradictory impressions but that's been discussed.) That doesn't seem very hopeful.

Anders is basically manic-depressive and swings between hopeful and hopeless, so neither of them are like shining beacons of optimism. Also Anders is sort of incapable of giving up.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[Helen0rz]

Pseudocognition wrote...
I got the impression he ilves every day like his freedom is a dream and he was preparing to wake up from it. That doesn't seem very hopeful.

Anders is basically manic-depressive and swings between hopeful and hopeless, so neither of them are like shining beacons of optimism.

lol no, definitely not beacons of optimism. I wouldn't say hopeful that's for sure, I'd say he's very much aware of  what's going on and he's not going 'pretend' he's can all of a sudden enjoy life because Danairus is miles away, you know?