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[ejoslin]

Riona45 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm not gonna get into it now myself - but I'd like to read the arguments. I mean, I'd just be starting with the Fenris/dialog page on the Dragon Age wiki and going straight to his own words. So... by all means.

*grabs popcorn*

What were we arguing about again?

Honestly, I'm kind of confused at this point.  Whether or not Fenris hates all mages on principle or something?

Don't feel bad, the argument has evolved and changed.  I gave up awhile ago.

Edit: Gah, ToP.  Ok, my one screenshot!

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

Huh? It's not really the same discussion. There was one about Fenris' overall purpose within the narrative, and I assume this other one would be about whether or not Fenris is prejudiced towards mages. Some have argued yes, some have argued no.

Simple really. They don't have to be related. It's more or less a new topic.

[Maiafay]

ejoslin wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm not gonna get into it now myself - but I'd like to read the arguments. I mean, I'd just be starting with the Fenris/dialog page on the Dragon Age wiki and going straight to his own words. So... by all means.

*grabs popcorn*

What were we arguing about again?

Honestly, I'm kind of confused at this point.  Whether or not Fenris hates all mages on principle or something?

Don't feel bad, the argument has evolved and changed.  I gave up awhile ago.

Edit: Gah, ToP.  Ok, my one screenshot!

Nothing quite like a blood-drenched Fenris giving you puppy eyes.

[Hekateras]

"Hate" is a rather imprecise and ambiguous word. You can hate animals, you can hate a person, you can hate pizza, you can hate some universally accepted evil. Same word, different levels of intensity. There's "hate" as in "severely dislike" and on the other end of the spectrum, "hate" as in "wish they would all die in a ditch".

Specifying by what is meant by "Fenris hates mages" would probably be the most productive start, methinks. Probably also best to distinguish between whether he actually seems to hate them (whatever it means), as we can observe it, and whether he is justified in that hatred/if it makes sense/if it's something to condemn.

My position in short: Fenris severely dislikes mages and assumes the worst of them (e.g. escaped noble's son, who he thinks is deliberately playing harmless), but does not wish them harm unless they've obviously gone off the deep end, in which case he seems to view ending them as his duty, only acting actively hateful if they are individuals who have wronged him (compare how he seethes when dealing with Hadriana to the calm and collected way he offs the elf-kidnapping "demons made me do it" guy.)

[Riona45]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There was one about Fenris' overall purpose within the narrative, and I assume this other one would be about whether or not Fenris is prejudiced towards mages. Some have argued yes, some have argued no.

If the question is "Is Fenris prejudiced against mages?" my answer to that specific question would be yes, he is.  Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't get more complicated that that--he can after all fall in love with a mage, and even if he doesn't, he obviously sees a mage Hawke as "different" from the other mages in the game.

It definitely more complicated than what one previewer of the game, for some reason, said about him (ie. that he thinks all mages should be made tranquil).

Modifié par Riona45, 22 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[ejoslin]

Fenris fears mages, and fears their power. He has seen the corruption at its worst. He tells a story of a child being sacrificed for the sake of showing off -- you can't even begin to imagine what he's seen when he master was serious. Is that hate? He hates what was done to him by mages, he knows only mages have that power. It takes a special kind of strength to NOT tap into that power.

He doesn't hate mage!Hawke. But he feels, probably rightly, if mages are given unlimited freedom the weak and the corrupt will use whatever they can, demons, human sacrifice, torture, to make themselves more powerful. And the mages who do not are in turn enslaved by the ones who do.  He believes that because that was what he saw while he was a slave.

He doesn't feel all mages should be locked up because he hates all mages. He feels they should be locked up because you just cannot know for sure which ones will succumb to the temptation to make themselves stronger. And his life experience does bear that out.

I'm not sure this all translates into a baseless hate for all mages. Oh, he hates all right, and in a rivalry romance will say it's time for him to move beyond it. But I'm not sure that means he hates all mages. But even the hate he feels was deliberately planted in him by his masters.

Fenris does not hate a mage!Hawke, nor did he hate Bethany. Fenris believes, rightly or wrongly, that mage!Hawke/Bethany are strong enough to not succumb to the temptations that go along with evil magic.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Riona45 wrote...

If the question is "Is Fenris prejudiced against mages?" my answer to that specific question would be yes, he is.  Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't get more complicated that that--he can after all fall in love with a mage, and even if he doesn't, he obviously sees a mage Hawke as "different" from the other mages in the game.

That sounds kind of like the type of people you come across who say extremely homophobic things but say they are not homophobic because they have gay friends.

Replace "mages" with "any real life prejudged group" in his dialogue and you get... interesting results. He basically uses "mage" as a pejorative.

Not that I hate him for it or blame him for it, or think he is irredeemably wrong and biased and unjust or whatever, it's just one of those things. Like how Anders is unquestionably a terrorist. He blows up a civic building to provoke a war, but he has his reasons, and it's the story.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 22 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Going to break up the discussion slightly...

I posted this up in the Monstrous Spider thread...

Fenris: Hawke.

Hawke: Wh-what?!

Fenris: It's dead. Please let go of my legs.

Hawke: (Pokes eyelid open) (Begins to scream madly and huge spider corpse and tumbles back, crawling away backwards as fast as she can) MAKER'S BREATH! SMASH IT!

Varric: Oh, c'mon Hawke. It's already dead.

Hawke: SMASH IT! SMASH IT! SMASH IT! SMASH IT!

(Cut to Varric and Cassandra)

Cassandra: Bull****.

Varric: Fine. Don't believe me that Hawke would literally start bawling like a child if she saw a spider. It could be valuable information you're wasting here though.

[Twofold Black]

Pseudocognition wrote...

That sounds kind of like the type of people you come across who say extremely homophobic things but say they are not homophobic because they have gay friends.

Replace "mages" with "any real life prejudged group" in his dialogue and you get... interesting results.

I don't by any means disagree that Fenris is a bigot, but this analogy is still never going to work and I wish people would stop trotting it out. Fenris has been on the **** end of institutional oppression himself; a component of his bigotry is trauma. If there's a relevant real-world comparison, it's not "gay people in the West = mages".

[Riona45]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

If the question is "Is Fenris prejudiced against mages?" my answer to that specific question would be yes, he is.  Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't get more complicated that that--he can after all fall in love with a mage, and even if he doesn't, he obviously sees a mage Hawke as "different" from the other mages in the game.

That sounds kind of like the type of people you come across who say extremely homophobic things but say they are not homophobic because they have gay friends.

I just want to point out that I never said it was a good thing that he sees you as different.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Riona45 wrote...

I just want to point out that I never said it was a good thing that he sees you as different.

And I wasn't accusing you of that. It was just a thought that came up from your comment.

@Twofold: There's not a tidy real life comparison for much in this story.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 22 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[upsettingshorts]

Twofold Black wrote...

I don't by any means disagree that Fenris is a bigot, but this analogy is still never going to work and I wish people would stop trotting it out. Fenris has been on the **** end of institutional oppression himself; a component of his bigotry is trauma. If there's a relevant real-world comparison, it's not "gay people in the West = mages".

I'd just like to point out that whether or not he has a justification is irrelevant.   Ergo, such comparisons do have merit. 

And that comparison does not make the argument that "gay people in the West = mages" it makes the argument that people who hold prejudices towards groups in real life are not excused from their bigotry for the reasons offered in the post pseudo was replying to or ones close to it:  So why should Fenris?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Twofold Black]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

I don't by any means disagree that Fenris is a bigot, but this analogy is still never going to work and I wish people would stop trotting it out. Fenris has been on the **** end of institutional oppression himself; a component of his bigotry is trauma. If there's a relevant real-world comparison, it's not "gay people in the West = mages".

I'd just like to point out that whether or not he has a justification is irrelevant.   Ergo, such comparisons do have merit. 

And that comparison does not make the argument that "gay people in the West = mages" it makes the argument that people who hold prejudices towards groups in real life are not excused from their bigotry for the reasons offered in the post pseudo was replying to.

In what way does my post have anything to do with justifications or excusing people from their bigotry? This is a poor analogy. I object to it. Nowhere do I comment on whether Fenris being a bigot is okay.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Fenris fears mages, and fears their power. He has seen the corruption at its worst. He tells a story of a child being sacrificed for the sake of showing off -- you can't even begin to imagine what he's seen when he master was serious. Is that hate? He hates what was done to him by mages, he knows only mages have that power. It takes a special kind of strength to NOT tap into that power.

He doesn't hate mage!Hawke. But he feels, probably rightly, if mages are given unlimited freedom the weak and the corrupt will use whatever they can, demons, human sacrifice, torture, to make themselves more powerful. And the mages who do not are in turn enslaved by the ones who do.  He believes that because that was what he saw while he was a slave.

He doesn't feel all mages should be locked up because he hates all mages. He feels they should be locked up because you just cannot know for sure which ones will succumb to the temptation to make themselves stronger. And his life experience does bear that out.

I'm not sure this all translates into a baseless hate for all mages. Oh, he hates all right, and in a rivalry romance will say it's time for him to move beyond it. But I'm not sure that means he hates all mages. But even the hate he feels was deliberately planted in him by his masters.

Fenris does not hate a mage!Hawke, nor did he hate Bethany. Fenris believes, rightly or wrongly, that mage!Hawke/Bethany are strong enough to not succumb to the temptations that go along with evil magic.

Yeah this is pretty much the same way I see it. You just say it far better. 

[upsettingshorts]

Twofold Black wrote...

In what way does my post have anything to do with justifications or excusing people from their bigotry?

If it doesn't, then I'm not sure what your point is.  Would you prefer the analogy use a different example of real world prejudice that would somehow be less objectionable to you?  What if it's more objectionable to someone else?

Twofold Black wrote...

This is a poor analogy. I object to it.

It's not a poor analogy because literally any example of prejudice would work for the argument.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[Ashera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

If the question is "Is Fenris prejudiced against mages?" my answer to that specific question would be yes, he is.  Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't get more complicated that that--he can after all fall in love with a mage, and even if he doesn't, he obviously sees a mage Hawke as "different" from the other mages in the game.

That sounds kind of like the type of people you come across who say extremely homophobic things but say they are not homophobic because they have gay friends.

Replace "mages" with "any real life prejudged group" in his dialogue and you get... interesting results. He basically uses "mage" as a pejorative.

Yeah, that is why the whole "mage Hawke is a mage, but s/he's different!" thing he does really makes me feel unsettled. I think it is pretty clear he's a bigot regarding mages given that in the course of the game you come across a number of mages that aren't evil bastards (and, of course a lot more that are... thank you, thin/ rent Veil in Kirkwall) and it doesn't seem to impact his thoughts too much about mages. I think hate is too strong of a word, (although I believe I used it myself a couple of days ago). Fear is a lot closer to his actual emotion, I think, and dislike. And perhaps that explains why Hawke is the "exception:" s/he has proven that Fenris has nothing to fear from her, and obviously cares enough about Fenris to risk her own life on his behalf. But yeah, it is still a yucky mindset, and I can well imagine that it wouldn't make Hawke feel that great either if s/he devoted any thought to it-- which if you fall in love or are good friends with someone like that, why wouldn't you?

[MorningBird]

Pseudocognition wrote...

That sounds kind of like the type of people you come across who say extremely homophobic things but say they are not homophobic because they have gay friends.

Replace "mages" with "any real life prejudged group" in his dialogue and you get... interesting results.

I actually agree with this assessment, in a sense.  Fenris does say things that--on their own--sound weary/cautious instead of hateful, but the moments where he slips into a rage and (imo) puts his 'true colors' on display have me convinced that he really does hate mages.

When he's calm and collected, Fenris just sounds like he's keeping an eye out for 'trouble', but when he's angry, well, he says stuff like this:

"What does magic touch that it doesn't spoil?"

This (to me) sounds like his 'true thoughts' bubbling to the surface and spilling out into words.

But that's just my impression.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd just like to point out that whether or not he has a justification is irrelevant.

... i'd say having justified prejudice makes quite a difference from one that's entirely baseless. And as such, is relevant.

[Riona45]

Pseudocognition wrote...


And I wasn't accusing you of that. It was just a thought that came up from your comment.

All right, thank you for the clarification.  

[Hekateras]

Being prejudiced, by definition, means that you have "judged" a person based on some general quality of theirs without bothering to get to know them personally. How does Fenris judge mages, what does he assume about them?

He thinks they are inherently dangerous and at risk of falling prey to a demon. This is objectively true in their world, so I see no issue with it. You're a mage, you can summon magic from your fingertips and might get possessed by a demon. Period.

He thinks that all but the strongest of mages WILL succumb to the temptation of abusing their power if backed into a corner. This feels more like prejudice, but that assumption is based not on some perceived fault of mages, but on the very nature of human(oid) beings in general - that they generally WILL fight with all the means available to them if survival is at stake. This as well is true in the vast majority of cases, so going from "People will fight for their lives with all available means" to the corollary of "Mages will fight for their lives with all available means" seems perfectly logical. It's a reasonable assumption. I don't see prejudice there.

There are some subtler things that feel like prejudice, e.g. his response to the escaped noble's son apostate who just wants to get laid - he assumes that it's a facade to feign harmlessness and get the drop on them later. Thta did feel like assuming that the kid is a lying, scheming bastard just because he's an escaped mage. It could be a result of Fenris's general paranoia too, though.

Fenris is often very harsh and insulting at mages, but to me it never came off as malicious, as in saying insulting things to hurt someone. What it did feel like was him trying his hardest to warn people about mages and mages about themselves and possibly encourage them to be better, through the means of blunt honesty verging on insult.

There's also the distinct lack of chopping up mages who haven't done anything to deserve it. His dislike of Merrill and Anders seems to be based on particular actions of theirs. Conversely, he seems to appreciate Bethany for being "clean" in that regard. Maybe it's just me, but prejudice doesn't sound like prejudice unless there are actual acts of discrimination involved.

To sum it up, Fenris being prejudiced: Maybe? Sort of? But to me it's a blurry line between prejudice and justified distrust.

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

... i'd say having justified prejudice makes quite a difference from one that's entirely baseless. And as such, is relevant.

Not if you're arguing the prejudice exists, and is the term that should be applied to Fenris' position on mages.

And whether or not "more justified" prejudices are more reasonable and less worthy of say, our scorn and contempt, than "totally unjustified" prejudices seems like an entirely different discussion.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 avril 2011 - 09:29 .

[leggywillow]

MorningBird wrote...
I actually agree with this assessment, in a sense.  Fenris does say things that--on their own--sound weary/cautious instead of hateful, but the moments where he slips into a rage and (imo) puts his 'true colors' on display have me convinced that he really does hate mages.

When he's calm and collected, Fenris just sounds like he's keeping an eye out for 'trouble', but when he's angry, well, he says stuff like this:

"What does magic touch that it doesn't spoil?"

This (to me) sounds like his 'true thoughts' bubbling to the surface and spilling out into words.

But that's just my impression.

Mine too.  And I actually don't have a problem with that aspect of his character at all.  Hate the mages, Fenris.  Hate 'em all day long; it just makes you more interesting.  But it does make it very difficult for me to romance him as a mage, because there's really NO dialogue that addresses this.  And given his vocal opinions about mages, it should be a very major part of his romance with a mage.  Especially since dialogue like "What does magic touch that it doesn't spoil?" is during Act 3, right around the time he and Hawke can reconcile.

I could only imagine my mage Hawke saying "What does magic touch that it doesn't spoil?!  Your genitals, buddy-o.  But noooooo."

[Twofold Black]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Twofold Black wrote...

In what way does my post have anything to do with justifications or excusing people from their bigotry?

If it doesn't, then I'm not sure what your point is.  Would you prefer the analogy use a different example of real world prejudice that would somehow be less objectionable to you?  What if it's more objectionable to someone else?

Twofold Black wrote...

This is a poor analogy. I object to it.

It's not a poor analogy because literally any example of prejudice would work for the argument.

Ah, I see the disconnect here. I dislike "hatred of mages = homophobia" because, if you walk it in reverse, it's a problematic commentary on homophobia.

[upsettingshorts]

Twofold Black wrote...

Ah, I see the disconnect here. I dislike "hatred of mages = homophobia" because, if you walk it in reverse, it's a problematic commentary on homophobia.

Which is problematic regardless of the parallel drawn - be it sexism, racism, homophobia, etc - so it's best not to walk it in reverse at all.  Reasonable people should be able to do that because its use as an example is simply to demonstrate prejudice and why certain exceptions and excuses used to rationalize it away may not work.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Hekateras wrote...
To sum it up, Fenris being prejudiced: Maybe? Sort of? But to me it's a blurry line between prejudice and justified distrust.

I think he's unquestionably prejudiced and justifiably distrustful... which is one of the overall things in the game you have to think about anyway in the mage vs templar issue.