55380 réponses à ce sujet

[MorningBird]

lizzbee wrote...
I think people are disputing that Fenris has an active, consuming hatred of mages, which I'll argue to death.  I don't think he actually does.

Ah.  I'm not sure I would call it a 'consuming hatred' (though it does seem that way at times) so much as a 'buried hatred' that he's trying to ignore/rid himself of.

lizzbee wrote...
Prejudice isn't always hatred.  Sometimes it's wariness, and sometimes ignorance based on beliefs that have been handed down to you from society or parents.  In Fenris' case, it was experience and trauma.

I agree that prejudice isn't always hatred.  I do think that, in the case of Fenris hatred plays a part in his prejudice, even if his hatred is the RESULT of his experiances and trauma.

lizzbee wrote...
  And I'll also argue that I think a lot of Fenris' outbursts do reflect his prejudice, but are more fueled by his otherwise introverted nature and his frustration with himself that has built to unbearable levels.

I think I agree with this, but could you expand? xD

[Hekateras]

Well, as a guess, Fenris IS practically Danarius's magical creation, custom name and all. He's a walking magical weapon, and he berates himself for his hatred issues and how he couldn't let Hadriana live. He explicitly calls his lyrium powers a curse in one of the banters. He may well be talking in part about himself with his "What has magic touched that it hasn't spoiled?" tirade.

Modifié par Hekateras, 23 avril 2011 - 12:53 .

[lizzbee]

MorningBird wrote...

Ah.  I'm not sure I would call it a 'consuming hatred' (though it does seem that way at times) so much as a 'buried hatred' that he's trying to ignore/rid himself of.

True, but I think it's more focused on specific mages who have hurt him.  I'm also not really saying you, but a couple of newer posters seem to think that his hatred is more general than I think it is.

I agree that prejudice isn't always hatred.  I do think that, in the case of Fenris hatred plays a part in his prejudice, even if his hatred is the RESULT of his experiances and trauma.

Well, yes, but I also think the hatred becomes more focused over time, and his general anti-mage prejudice evolves into wariness in regard to other mages.  He definitely hates Hadriana, Danarius, and will probably always hate every last Tevinter magister.  And with good reason, IMHO.  Hell, I hate them, and they're not even real

I think I agree with this, but could you expand? xD

Well, the first thing Fenris does is apologize for his outburst at the Hawke mansion, and he explains that he's angry with himself for not letting Hadriana go.  I got the distinct impression that he thought he was further along in forgiveness and moving on than he actually was, and was taken aback by the fact that he wasn't.  As an introvert, it's kind of hard to explain what you sort of know about yourself intuitively, but I know sometimes when I get pissed with myself and everything around me, the overspill isn't always logical or rational.  I might end up ranting about some idiot who cut me off in traffic, or the way my husband put his glass down on the table.  Neither of those things really mean anything, but they're sort of an easy target, if that makes any sense.  Mages are his traditional target, and so his rage is expressed in those terms.  He knows that isn't the real problem, but that's just how it comes out.

[Riona45]

Hekateras wrote...
He may well be talking in part about himself with his "What has magic touched that it hasn't spoiled?" tirade.

That's how I would interpret that.

[autumnyte]

Riona45 wrote...

Hekateras wrote...
He may well be talking in part about himself with his "What has magic touched that it hasn't spoiled?" tirade.

That's how I would interpret that.

I interpret it that way too. I think he has some self-hatred wrapped up in his hate for magic.

[MorningBird]

Hekateras wrote...
Words won't necessarily stop someone from killing an innocent. Stabbing them or selling them out to the Templars would. I just find it odd that Ander's outburst doesn't even come up in your conversations with Fenris afterwards.

Hekateras wrote...
I never said you have to react with violence. I said that, in my opinion, you have to react with action. (In my example, talking to Hawke about it would've been action but not necessarily violence.

Hekateras wrote...
I don't know why you read over that.

Probably because I found your post contradictory.  Feel free to clarify.

Hekateras wrote...
In your example, restricting one's personal freedom about who to marry is a hefty example of such action.  If you mistrust a certain group but do NOT let it affect your actions in any way, I honestly don't see the point of calling it prejudice.

I don't think you understood the example, and I'm not trying to be an ass here by pointing that out.  I'm trying to think of a better way to put it, but I think I'll leave that endeavor in someone else's hands.

Hekateras wrote...
Prejudice would be assuming that, because some dogs are vicious, this dog WILL maul you, and shooting it at sight. But simply approaching it with more caution than one would a cat? That's common sense.

You actually don't have to shoot something on sight to be prejudice.

For example, I'm a pet owner.  I have a dog.  Regardless, I know not all dogs are cuddles and muffins, so I approach 'unfamiliar' dogs with caution.

Other members of my family, however, dislike dogs by virtue of them being dogs.  Would I call them prejudice against dogs?  Maybe, depending on their reasoning.  Some people just prefer cats.  Others, however, view dogs as barking, biting, monstrosities that will eat you without provocation.  I would call such people prejudice against dogs, and they wouldn't have to shoot one to convince me.

As I mentioned before, one need not come to blows to be prejudice.

That being said, one need not possess 'preconcieved notions' of a group to be prejudice either.  That is only ONE definition of the term.  Another being:

"Unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group."

I'm not saying mages aren't dangerous.  They certainly possess a stronger capacity for danger than 'mundane' folks, and as someone who supports the Circles, I agree that a certain level of 'caution' wouldn't be misplaced in regards to dealing with them.  However, Fenris also states that mages are greedy and deceitful seemingly by nature, and suggests to Anders that they should never be granted freedoms because, "the moment they are free, mages will make themselves magisters."

This does strike me as prejudice.

Modifié par MorningBird, 23 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[Hekateras]

However, Fenris also states that mages are greedy and deceitful seemingly by nature, and suggests to Anders that they should never be granted freedoms because, "the moment they are free, mages will make themselves magisters."

Fenris consistently points out that it is human(oids) in general who can be greedy and deceitful by nature. But when mages do it, the consequences are far more horrific because of the power they wield, so he's for policing that power. His conversation after Alone is particularly telling.

This is further supported by the fact that he obviously doesn't think mages are the only ones who are greedy and deceitful - just listen to his comments in the guard barracks, or judging the character of a city by its treatment of the poor. Fenris believes that people in power are very likely to come to abuse it. He's wary of all kinds of power, but magic is his top priority because it's orders of magnitude more dangerous.

He's not linking Mage --> greedy and deceitful. He's linking Human(oid) --> greedy and deceitful --> abuse of power --> horrific abuse of power if mage.

Others, however, view dogs as barking, biting, monstrosities that will
eat you without provocation.  I would call such people prejudice against
dogs, and they wouldn't have to shoot one to convince me.

And that's what I feel doesn't accurately describe Fenris. He says he knows that, in this extended metaphor, not all dogs are barking, biting monstrosities, but some undoubtedly are, and it only takes a few to do horrible damage, so he'll be cautious around all of them until they prove that they're not the barking mad ones.

"You are not Danarius," he says to a mage Hawke. "Whether you are anything like him remains to be seen." Openly stating that he'll wait and see before he judges you strikes me as the very opposite of prejudice. He is more aware of the potential dangers than the average person, yes, and it's never far from his mind, but that doesn't strike me as prejudice

And off to bed now. ~_~

Modifié par Hekateras, 23 avril 2011 - 01:29 .

[Shacary]

Hmm Morning, I kinda see that statement making sense, the prejuidice part but I think it is colored by the life he lived... We tend to paint our values/mores prejuidisms with the same paint brush as our parents started with or others of importance to our lives. It doesnt dissolve the issue there IS prejudism, but it might allow one more room to grow out of them [ exposure to said element ] teaching them it is not all true etc.
So hmm mb i understand? LOL idk preconceptions are all over the world in game and out!

[MorningBird]

lizzbee wrote...
True, but I think it's more focused on specific mages who have hurt him.  I'm also not really saying you, but a couple of newer posters seem to think that his hatred is more general than I think it is.

I don't disagree, but I do think Fenris has a tendancy to 'project' his hatred onto otherwise undeserving mages.  His comments about them being decietful and power hungry by... virtue of them being mages, for example, just give me the impression that his anger isn't always aimed at the right targets.

lizzbee wrote...
Well, yes, but I also think the hatred becomes more focused over time, and his general anti-mage prejudice evolves into wariness in regard to other mages.  He definitely hates Hadriana, Danarius, and will probably always hate every last Tevinter magister.  And with good reason, IMHO.  Hell, I hate them, and they're not even real

I think we may be in accord on this one.  As I said, I don't think he's completely shaken his prejudices by the end of Act 3, but I'll admit he made headway.

lizzbee wrote...
Well, the first thing Fenris does is apologize for his outburst at the Hawke mansion, and he explains that he's angry with himself for not letting Hadriana go.  I got the distinct impression that he thought he was further along in forgiveness and moving on than he actually was, and was taken aback by the fact that he wasn't.  As an introvert, it's kind of hard to explain what you sort of know about yourself intuitively, but I know sometimes when I get pissed with myself and everything around me, the overspill isn't always logical or rational.  I might end up ranting about some idiot who cut me off in traffic, or the way my husband put his glass down on the table.  Neither of those things really mean anything, but they're sort of an easy target, if that makes any sense.  Mages are his traditional target, and so his rage is expressed in those terms.  He knows that isn't the real problem, but that's just how it comes out.

Ah, alright.

As I mentioned before, I admit that this could be what the writers intended when they wrote those scenes.  In that case, I would be disappointed though.  Fenris venting at an 'old familiar target' is fine if it happens once, but the situation occurs so many times that I would LIKE to believe it was to illustrate his lingering resentment towards mages rather than... well, an outburst with little bearing, if that makes sense.

[Namuri]

Of course Fenris is prejudice against and hates mages. I thought that was a given. I mean, they (some mages) turned him into a living weapon while erasing his memory and binding him into slavery. They used him to do a lot of horrible things and when he ran away they chased after him. All mages from where he is from are blood mages, working with demons and sacrificing innocents for power. Just because they aren't doing that in Kirkwall (and they freaking are!) doesn't mean he thinks the can't. After all they, as said before, freaking /are/ doing that sort of stuff. He assumes by default that a mage will be corrupt, because by default all the mages he's ever met are corrupt. He hates mages because he hates magic, sort of like he hates himself (for oh so many things). He might, at times, attempt to act as if he doesn't, but it's pretty obvious he hates mages.
Although he does make exceptions, like in the case of Mage!Hawke and Bethany, but that's only after they've gotten past his prejudicial first impression.

[lizzbee]

MorningBird wrote...
I think we may be in accord on this one.  As I said, I don't think he's completely shaken his prejudices by the end of Act 3, but I'll admit he made headway.

Well, of course not.  I wouldn't have expected him to, TBH.  But he has made progress, and quite a lot of it, especially if he stands with a mage-favoring Hawke.

Ah, alright.

As I mentioned before, I admit that this could be what the writers intended when they wrote those scenes.  In that case, I would be disappointed though.  Fenris venting at an 'old familiar target' is fine if it happens once, but the situation occurs so many times that I would LIKE to believe it was to illustrate his lingering resentment towards mages rather than... well, an outburst with little bearing, if that makes sense.

I was just adding a little nuance to what you were saying.  I don't think he's devoid of prejudice, and prejudice definitely flavors the outbursts.  In the outburst during "A Bitter Pill," he's frustrated that he's allowed his hatred and prejudice to lead him to break his word.  And the outburst of pure frustration comes through a familiar channel, if that makes any sense, and he misdirects his rage at Hawke.  The prejudice and hatred are definitely at the root of the outburst, but not the fuel and the direction, if that makes any sense.

[MorningBird]

lizzbee wrote...
I was just adding a little nuance to what you were saying.  I don't think he's devoid of prejudice, and prejudice definitely flavors the outbursts.  In the outburst during "A Bitter Pill," he's frustrated that he's allowed his hatred and prejudice to lead him to break his word.  And the outburst of pure frustration comes through a familiar channel, if that makes any sense, and he misdirects his rage at Hawke.  The prejudice and hatred are definitely at the root of the outburst, but not the fuel and the direction, if that makes any sense.

Yes, that's much clearer, thank you.

Sorry, I was a little thrown off by your previous post.

[Evindell]

Of course Fenris is prejudice! I don't see how he could be anything else. It would be more unbelievable, to me, if he wasn't. After spending a lifetime in slavery to a nation of mages, how else could he be, really?

I agree with a passing comment someone made. People seem to be debating his merits as a person, instead of just a character. He IS a character, and his prejudice make him a lot more interesting.

That said, I choose to interpret certain actions, or lack thereof, as evidence that he's trying to step beyond his prejudice. It could be that his lack of action against Anders, Merrill, and mage Hawke were simply left on the cutting room floor because of time constraints or budget, but why can't I then choose to interpret this as I see fit? Until someone tells me otherwise (and by someone, I mean someone from Bioware) I have no way of knowing if things would have eventually come to a head, and they had to abandon it. I choose to see it as evidence that he wants to get better.

And if he can eventually agree that Hawke/Bethany was not such a terrible mage, it seems to me that he isn't completely beyond hope. But I hardly think ten years is long enough to erase a lifetime of slavery (a type of slavery that we can hardly understand). It might be enough to taper hatred, but not eradicate it.

Being friends with (and eventually loving) my mage Hawke shows, to me and my interpretation, that he's capable of making exceptions.

Bah. I don't think any of this was well articulated or well thought out. I'm tired...I haven't slept in three days and, ironically enough, I'm trying to study for my Politics of International Terrorism class. Just for your information, according to most of the articles and authors we have read in our class, Anders is a terrorist.

P.S. I'm not saying any of this as an argument for or against the issue of Fenris and his prejudices. I'm not trying to convince anyone. This is my interpretation. I almost don't want to post it, because I feel as if I've said nothing substantial, but I took all that time to type it, might as well hit the button...

Modifié par Evindell, 23 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[Helen0rz]

oh my...I looked away for few hours and now we're debating on whether or not Fenris is prejudice against mages?

>.<

well, that's simple. he does.

[Lywren]

Hey, I just heard a new banter with Fenirs that has never happened before. I had Aveline, Varric, and obviously Fenris in my group when we approached the Hanged Man and this conversation triggered:

Fenris: I do not understand the name. Did they hang men here?
Aveline: I think it is referring to being drunk.
Varric: (Solemnly) No, they really did hang men here…by their ankles…until they starved.
Fenris: (chuckles) Good thing they were drunk!

I laughed my head off! Has anyone else heard this before in the game? I want to hear it again! The way Fenris said the last line was priceless!

[tankgirly]

I will leave this one here.

[Helen0rz]

ooooo pretty!!

[tankgirly]

Helen0rz wrote...

ooooo pretty!!

Thank you.


EDIT: New art found:



by elethe. I am pretty sure she has another nickname here but I can't seemed to remember....

Modifié par tankgirly, 23 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Estral27]

Oo Tank you are so fast Thanks for posting my pic
Estral27 on BSN... elethe on DA. I failed at usernames apparently.

[tankgirly]

Estral27 wrote...

Oo Tank you are so fast Thanks for posting my pic
Estral27 on BSN... elethe on DA. I failed at usernames apparently.

I have a reputation on fast posting artwork, sometimes before the artist even.

Good to see your artwork again.

[Estral27]

Thanks Tankgirly Its nice to be back.

[tankgirly]

Had to repost this as I need to ask you guys about something.



I remembered someone turned this into gif but I can't find the page. Anyone know?

[Helen0rz]

so...no more discussion???

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Helen0rz wrote...

so...no more discussion???

Not right now I guess, but I do have a question. Does Fenris mention the aversion to touch if you are not romancing him?

[Evindell]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

so...no more discussion???

Not right now I guess, but I do have a question. Does Fenris mention the aversion to touch if you are not romancing him?

I don't really think so. I think at most he just talks about the pain and how "the memory lingers".

Except I do believe Bethany has banter with him asking if they still hurt, and he tells her she doesn't want to know the answer to that.


Ah, yes. Here it is:

• Bethany: So, the magister put lyrium in your skin?
• Fenris: So I'm told.
• Bethany: Does it hurt?
• Fenris: You do not want to know the answer to that.

Modifié par Evindell, 23 avril 2011 - 06:34 .