55380 réponses à ce sujet

[lizzbee]

ipgd wrote...

I'm still not sure why people insist on comparing Anders to Twilight. You are aware that that particular trope was around long before Twilight, and the use of that trope had nothing to do with why Twilight was actually bad, right?
"Appreciate" isn't exactly the word I'd use.

That's an interesting take.  I'd only seen the Gaider snippet that was bandied about the intarwebs.  If you've ever *read* Twilight, some of Anders' lines seem to have been copied part and parcel from Edward.  Not to say that SMeyer was original in writing said lines to begin with

And, honestly, those were some of the worst lines in Twilight.  When Anders repeated them almost verbatim during the love scene, it was all I could do to keep my gorge down.

Modifié par lizzbee, 27 avril 2011 - 08:50 .

[Addai]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LOL Who's bashing?  You added a bashing sound to what I wrote, which wasn't there.

Affections= sex?  News to me.

Perhaps you were not bashing Isabela, but there seems to be a level of hypocrisy in this discussion when it comes to accepting Isabela as someone who does not value committment when Fenris seems to value someone who can be free with their affection.  And by "affections=sex," I'm sure he did not mean that the Fog Warriors sat around and talked about their feelings for one another.

It could mean sex, or it could not.

When I first went home with my Cuban roommate in college, everyone in the family kissed me at least three times a day.  Smooch.  Then they pushed food on me.  Kissed me again.  Fed me again.  Kissed me again.  Suffice to say I was very impressed by the freedom of their affections, and abuelita never once put the moves on me.

I don't know that that is an admirable trait.

Not letting something from your past haunt you and define your life and actions?  Sounds pretty nice to me.

It's no doubt a preference thing.  Sober people are more trustworthy to me.  If she had been really worried about the people her act was affecting, she could have told Hawke earlier what was going on instead of shifty-eyeing every time you went to the Qunari keep.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[MelRedux]

Addai67 wrote...
abuelita never once put the moves on me.

And this is why I love you

[Shacary]

@ Rinji, I honestly do see a problem with not learning from mistakes or at least considerign them, so if you mean Isabela brushing them aside with a lame oneliner, as not letting it haunt her life... well mb she needs to let a few of her mistakes temper her life imo..
Lol again its all politics in a way, based on my values in the game and perhaps life who knows its influence, I find folks that have wronged Hawke and brush it aside so they can go on " living in comfort and ease "emotionally w/e " to be non-valuable....it would be a hurt that I dont think would just ever seep away... until it was opened up like a flower so to speak.. my metaphors are sadly off, sometimes the words do not come .
all the same no offence intended , I do like to read peeps responses as long as they dont go all Ape poo on me. lol

[Rinji the Bearded]

Addai67 wrote...

When I first went home with my Cuban roommate in college, everyone in the family kissed me at least three times a day.  Smooch.  Then they pushed food on me.  Kissed me again.  Fed me again.  Kissed me again.  Suffice to say I was very impressed by the freedom of their affections, and abuelita never once put the moves on me.

You're confusing affections with cultural etiquette.  They aren't kissing you because they are expressing affection -- kissing on the cheek is commonplace in many cultures, even among acquaintances.  It's like shaking hands to Western cultures, which is even considered a boundary issue in places like Asia.  We don't think twice about it when we shake hands, however, just as some cultures don't think twice about kissing.

The way Fenris brought this up in conversation, however, indicated that this wasn't the case.  He didn't need to have sex with any of them to appreciate their more open attitudes, however.  It's something that comes by very hard to him.

Shacary wrote...

@ Rinji, I honestly do see a problem
with not learning from mistakes or at least considerign them, so
if you mean Isabela brushing them aside with a lame oneliner,
as not letting it haunt her life... well mb she needs to let a few
of her mistakes temper her life imo..
Lol again its all
politics in a way, based on my values in the game and perhaps
life who knows its influence, I find folks that have wronged Hawke
and brush it aside so they can go on " living in comfort and ease
"emotionally w/e " to be non-valuable....it would be a hurt that I
dont think would just ever seep away... until it was opened up like
a flower so to speak.. my metaphors are sadly off, sometimes the
words do not come .
all the same no offence intended , I do like
to read peeps responses as long as they dont go all Ape poo on me.
lol

I don't know what game you played, but she avoided my Hawke for three years after the incident.  In fact she wasn't really that willing to let me forgive her for what happened.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 27 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[tankgirly]

lizzbee wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

NaNo whatsit?

I'm sometimes tempted to read one of those just to see what everyone's talking about. 

National Novel Writing Month.  www.nanowrimo.org/

Essentially, you're supposed to write a 50,000 word novel by the end of November each year.

Yeah, I heard about that. You meant to reach certain goal each week/month or something.

Not my kind of site, as I prefer to write/doodle at my own pace. Sometimes I write a lot, sometimes I don't.

[Shacary]

I think Addai has the right of it. affections are not neccessarily sex. altho I do tend to believe that most likely Fenris did engage in it with Fog warriors. but why is this an issue? its No slight on Isabelas character, Its more on the fact that as a woman I dont think being portrayed as an amoral sex kitten should define what a strong " character" women should have. I think the woman who raised 5 kids as a single parent and worked three jobs and struggled to put groceries on the table and somehow still had time to instill truisms and kindness to her kith and kin MORE an example of heroism than Isabela would ever be..
I would love to see some core strength like that in game female characters, I think aveline has that, if she were loose it wouldnt change her CORE ,, if that makes sense.

[ipgd]

lizzbee wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I'm still not sure why people insist on comparing Anders to Twilight. You are aware that that particular trope was around long before Twilight, and the use of that trope had nothing to do with why Twilight was actually bad, right?
"Appreciate" isn't exactly the word I'd use.

That's an interesting take.  I'd only seen the Gaider snippet that was bandied about the intarwebs.  If you've ever *read* Twilight, some of Anders' lines seem to have been copied part and parcel from Edward.  Not to say that SMeyer was original in writing said lines to begin with

And, honestly, those were some of the worst lines in Twilight.  When Anders repeated them almost verbatim during the love scene, it was all I could do to keep my gorge down.

I have read Twilight, and also written at some length about this particular trope comparison.

Obviously, there are direct similarities between it and ****ty romance novels. That's sort of the whole point of deconstructions; the Anders romance plays the trope of the obsessive, scarily devoted Romance Novel Protagonist and takes it to its logical conclusions. Anders has many of the mannerisms of these kinds of characters, but instead of being lauded as a paragon of romanticism and virtue, they are his downfall. It's a very self-aware, almost biting dissection of the character archetype.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Shacary]

@ rinji i only had one PT were she was my friend.. and after the arishok thing and the deaths of the folks in the city .. [ that bothers me same as it does when anders does his lil crisis] she gave me a one liner brush aside. I will have to reload to see exactly what it was but basically it felt unreal... like O ya and thanks for saving me.... nothing else.. empty to me..

[lizzbee]

ipgd wrote...
I have read Twilight, and also written at some length about this particular trope comparison.

Obviously, there are direct similarities between it and ****ty romance novels. That's sort of the whole point of deconstructions; the Anders romance plays the trope of the obsessive, scarily devoted Romance Novel Protagonist and takes it to its logical conclusions. Anders has many of the mannerisms of these kinds of characters, but instead of being lauded as a paragon of romanticism and virtue, they are his downfall. It's a very self-aware, almost biting dissection of the character archetype.

Self-aware dissection or no, It still didn't stop the lines themselves from being revoltingly awful.  "I love you.  I've been holding back from saying that."  **cringe**

[ejoslin]

Does anyone find it kind of funny that Isabela slept with the seneschal to get him to quit sending the tax collector after Fenris and gave him a disease?

Isabela DOES look out for the people she likes!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[upsettingshorts]

ejoslin wrote...
Isabela DOES look out for the people she likes!

I was going to respond to the part of your post that originally posed the question, "Or am I reading too much into these things?" in the affirmative, but does the fact you edited it out mean you no longer doubt this interpretation of yours?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[ipgd]

lizzbee wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I have read Twilight, and also written at some length about this particular trope comparison.

Obviously, there are direct similarities between it and ****ty romance novels. That's sort of the whole point of deconstructions; the Anders romance plays the trope of the obsessive, scarily devoted Romance Novel Protagonist and takes it to its logical conclusions. Anders has many of the mannerisms of these kinds of characters, but instead of being lauded as a paragon of romanticism and virtue, they are his downfall. It's a very self-aware, almost biting dissection of the character archetype.

Self-aware dissection or no, It still didn't stop the lines themselves from being revoltingly awful.  "I love you.  I've been holding back from saying that."  **cringe**

But... that's the point. The game is practically making fun of him :|

[Rinji the Bearded]

lizzbee wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I have read Twilight, and also written at some length about this particular trope comparison.

Obviously, there are direct similarities between it and ****ty romance novels. That's sort of the whole point of deconstructions; the Anders romance plays the trope of the obsessive, scarily devoted Romance Novel Protagonist and takes it to its logical conclusions. Anders has many of the mannerisms of these kinds of characters, but instead of being lauded as a paragon of romanticism and virtue, they are his downfall. It's a very self-aware, almost biting dissection of the character archetype.

Self-aware dissection or no, It still didn't stop the lines themselves from being revoltingly awful.  "I love you.  I've been holding back from saying that."  **cringe**

It's fine to not like that kind of romance, however, it's not as if Twilight invented that particular trope.

[upsettingshorts]

lizzbee wrote...

Self-aware dissection or no, It still didn't stop the lines themselves from being revoltingly awful.  "I love you.  I've been holding back from saying that."  **cringe**

There's plenty for people to cringe at in a lot of the romances.  It depends what makes people cringe.  With Fenris for example it made me cringe that his "theme music" (labeled in a file as "fenris_emo_mus" just to hammer the point home) that played constantly whether the scene was appropriate or not, and his "and they put it there" rant.  Just to name two examples.

That a romance doesn't appeal to a person doesn't mean that the entirety of it is some wholly derivative nonsense, or whatever.

[ejoslin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Isabela DOES look out for the people she likes!

I was going to respond to the part of your post originally posed the question, "Or am I reading too much into these things?" in the affirmative, but does the fact you edited it out mean you no longer doubt this interpretation of yours?

Well, it's not so far off base.  When you go to Fenris' mansion in the beginning of act 2, she is explaining that the seneschal is no longer going to send his men around.  When you go to Anders, if Isabela is in your party, he's getting cured for a disease and Anders tells him to stay away from pirates.  If Isabela is not in the party, she's the one being cured.  /shrug  It's really not too much of a reach.

I thought I was being funny, however.  Lots of Isabela trashing going on.  I thought I'd bring it back around to Fenris

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Does anyone find it kind of funny that Isabela slept with the seneschal to get him to quit sending the tax collector after Fenris and gave him a disease?

Isabela DOES look out for the people she likes!

In her own inimitable way. 

I thought Sheryl Chee did a great job with her.  She's not one-dimensional even in her "free affections."  The banter where she says she's heard "get away from me, you pirate hag" more times than she can count is sort of pathetic and endearing at the same time.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I want to offer a few thoughts on Isabela as I adore her.  She's not my favorite female companion, that distinction goes to Aveline who I think manages to inhabit multiple gender roles in a way that seems both believable and compelling.  This is to be commended.   But I think Isabela also does something similar though not in the same way as Aveline.  I love that they become good friends.

1.  What I appreciate about Isabela is not just her sexual freedom, but her comfort with her sexuality, her confidence as a woman who enjoys sex and has no issue with expressing that desire.  For the longest time, women were not "allowed" to enjoy sex or be confident in their ability to be sexual beings.  We see this has changed somewhat, but I still think it is problematic.  Women can talk about sex only within a give context, only within confined means where I think men still have that freedom to be more expressive in their enjoyment and their need for it.   Isabela subverts this.  I get that it doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me.

2.  Her return with that book is one of the most romantic moments I have EVER seen in a video game.  She comes back to aid Hawke and Hawke in turn sticks up for her in the most dramatic of ways, a battle for her "soul" (see Fenris/Isabela conversation).  It is a subversion of that old damsel in distress in that Isabel initially returns to rescue Hawke and Hawke stands in as her knight.  This is doubly interesting if you're playing as a female Hawke. 

3.  I appreciate her growth from a reckless, shallow individual who at least (in friendship) has learned to care enough for Hawke to remain loyal until the end.  I get that people might be put off by that, but her final dialogue at the end game totally had me clutching the controller doing one of these.... 

4.  Her ability to diffuse tensions sometimes is much appreciated as is the notion that she can be incredibly insightful when she wants to be.  I enjoy that there's a little bit more going on behind the scenes than what is initially implied. 

5.  Her relationship with Merrill is so touching and it is nice to see that for once,  it is not the women who war and snipe at each other viciously, but it is more that the men who do.  I really can't stand the notion that women can not truly be friends as they will always compete with each other.  It is nice to see that assertion subverted and furthermore refuted by the bond that develops between Isabela and Aveline, and Isabela and Merrill.

EDIT: Some grammar fail and I'm sure there's still more and I'm too lazy to fix it.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 27 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[upsettingshorts]

I try not to use this too much, but I'm going to THIS Village Idiot's entire post.

[Addai]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

When I first went home with my Cuban roommate in college, everyone in the family kissed me at least three times a day.  Smooch.  Then they pushed food on me.  Kissed me again.  Fed me again.  Kissed me again.  Suffice to say I was very impressed by the freedom of their affections, and abuelita never once put the moves on me.

You're confusing affections with cultural etiquette.  They aren't kissing you because they are expressing affection -- kissing on the cheek is commonplace in many cultures, even among acquaintances.  It's like shaking hands to Western cultures, which is even considered a boundary issue in places like Asia.  We don't think twice about it when we shake hands, however, just as some cultures don't think twice about kissing.

The way Fenris brought this up in conversation, however, indicated that this wasn't the case.  He didn't need to have sex with any of them to appreciate their more open attitudes, however.  It's something that comes by very hard to him.

Well that's very nerdy of you.  Not to mention a wee presumptuous.  You have the inside track to how Fenris interprets and expresses himself?

To me it was affection.  I didn't sit back and say "actually, this is just a manifestation of a cultural trait whereby..."  I wasn't used to it, so it impressed me enough that I remember it eons later.  Fenris was a slave, and maybe in Tevinter people shake hands.  No reason why Fenris' phrase has to mean an orgy on the beach rather than kisses and dumplings.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Addai67 wrote...

Well that's very nerdy of you.  Not to mention a wee presumptuous.  You have the inside track to how Fenris interprets and expresses himself?

To me it was affection.  I didn't sit back and say "actually, this is just a manifestation of a cultural trait whereby..."  I wasn't used to it, so it impressed me enough that I remember it eons later.  Fenris was a slave, and maybe in Tevinter people shake hands.  No reason why Fenris' phrase has to mean an orgy on the beach rather than kisses and dumplings.

So you can make presumptions about Fenris and the Tevinter culture, and however I'm the nerdy and presumptuous one?

And did I ever say that there was an orgy on the beach?  Openness does not always = Orgy.  Who is being presumptuous?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 27 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[tankgirly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I try not to use this too much, but I'm going to THIS Village Idiot's entire post.

huh?

[mellifera]

An orgy on the beach is more interesting and he didn't have to participate to know about it. Not saying that it happened but nothing says that it didn't happen either... Fenris is such an empty vessel (in the sense that you can fill him up with whatever as long as it can fit into the container's basic shape), so you can interpret anything he says in the most wildly different ways and not be contradictory.

Modifié par yukidama, 27 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[upsettingshorts]

tankgirly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I try not to use this too much, but I'm going to THIS Village Idiot's entire post.

huh?

It's not that complicated, I just didn't want to quote the entire Village Idiot post - it's long, and I'm posting right below it - to just say I agree with it.

[leggywillow]

yukidama wrote...

An orgy on the beach is more interesting and he didn't have to participate to know about it. Not saying that it happened but nothing says that it didn't happen either... Fenris is such an empty vessel (in the sense that you can fill him up with whatever as long as it can fit into the container's basic shape), so you can interpret anything he says in the most wildly different ways and not be contradictory.

Heh.  That is indeed Fenris's greatest purpose in the narrative.