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[NugWrangler]

I always suspected that Fenris didn't fully know what he was getting in to when he agreed to the ritual. He probalby understood that getting the markings was painful and risky, but I'm not sure he knew he would be losing his memories. He may have thought that his status as an elite warrior in a rich magister's house would have let him continue to help his family out after they were freed. I don't think he would have gone through with it if he knew they would have to fend for themselves with no support. Varania may have thought her brother purposely abandoned her. I still don't have much sympathy for her, but I get why she is resentful.

[metalgirl-1]

I agree completely about what everyone is saying about Fenris' sister. I have some but very, VERY little sympathy for her, especially because I have 1 brother and 3 sisters (All older) and could NOT in any situation imagine doing something like that to them. I understand her, but that's about it. Also to go back to the whole Garrus/Fenris thing for a second, I wonder why people who really like Fenris really like garrus too? I know I really like both characters but I wonder how many others do too? And why exactly that is? Any ideas?

[Annarl]

BPearl12 wrote...

I always suspected that Fenris didn't fully know what he was getting in to when he agreed to the ritual. He probalby understood that getting the markings was painful and risky, but I'm not sure he knew he would be losing his memories. He may have thought that his status as an elite warrior in a rich magister's house would have let him continue to help his family out after they were freed. I don't think he would have gone through with it if he knew they would have to fend for themselves with no support. Varania may have thought her brother purposely abandoned her. I still don't have much sympathy for her, but I get why she is resentful.

I agree.  It would be nice if we got a little more information so we could understand Varania's resentment better or at least its source.  Is it his markings? How he was treated before or after the ritual? Or both?  Or maybe he wasn't a great brother and is now a better and a freer person?  It seems a little more information could have change how I felt about Varania but I never got so I almost always let Fenris kill her.  I think she only live once in my play throughs (about 4.5 I think)

[Annarl]

metalgirl-1 wrote...

.... Also to go back to the whole Garrus/Fenris thing for a second, I wonder why people who really like Fenris really like garrus too? I know I really like both characters but I wonder how many others do too? And why exactly that is? Any ideas?

I like Fenris, in fact he's the first elven character I've ever liked.  Now, I like Iorveth (from TW2) even better.  That poor handsome face:wub:.    But Garrus to me is just my wingman.  He's always my Sheps best buddy.  No romance.

[Arquen]

I only let her live once, and that was because my hawke could say "I know what it is like to kill your own sister." Fenris had no response to that but the face was priceless. Only reason I let her live was to hear that line. All other times it was "FENRIS does what he wants.."

[Patriciachr34]

omearaee wrote...

metalgirl-1 wrote...

.... Also to go back to the whole Garrus/Fenris thing for a second, I wonder why people who really like Fenris really like garrus too? I know I really like both characters but I wonder how many others do too? And why exactly that is? Any ideas?

I like Fenris, in fact he's the first elven character I've ever liked.  Now, I like Iorveth (from TW2) even better.  That poor handsome face:wub:.    But Garrus to me is just my wingman.  He's always my Sheps best buddy.  No romance.

OMG!!! Someone just like me! This!  This!  This!

[Harle Cerulean]

I'd like to let Varania live, but I have trouble with, immediately after defending Fenris' freedom and killing the last obstacle to it, giving him orders. You know what I mean? Even if his choice to kill his sister is one I don't agree with because 1) murder isn't right, even if the person betrayed you, and 2) it seems likely he'll greatly regret it when he's had a chance to cool off, ordering him to stop seems . . . out of my place.

If I had a way to say to him, "Fenris, please, don't do this, It's your choice, but I'm asking you, please don't." I'd be more comfortable. But Hawke's just like "Fenris, don't," which leaves me with a funny squirmy feeling, especially since Fenris complies, meaning he's obeying me and just- yeah.

[Patriciachr34]

I think of that line as what comes out instead of what's going through my head. I mean to be reasonable, but in the heat of the moment the only thing that comes out of my mouth is "Don't!". In this context the response is more than appropriate.

[phyreblade74]

My thoughts on Varania tend to be garbled, because there's so much going on, there, that's never really clarified.  I mean, we're given the barest minimum of information.  Basically, Varania is Fenris' sister, they played together as children, until one day Fenris entered some sort of competition, which we don't know much of at all, and Fenris used the "boon" of winning that competition to earn his mother and sister their freedom and became Danarius' bodyguard.  That's pretty much it, and that's a miserly insight, really.

So I'm left to wonder:

What exactly did Fenris really know, going into the competition?  I mean, did he understand the full scope of the ritual, what it was he was going to be giving up?  Did he understand he would lose his memory, how much it would hurt, the agony of it?  Did Varania? 

Honestly, I sort of doubt it.  It just seems to me the agony and pain of the ritual might have been something Fenris considered "worth" his family's freedom.  But not losing his memory.  Few people would agree to giving up so much of themself willingly, not even slaves and maybe especially slaves, people who have virtually nothing else BUT the love and care they hold for a mother and sibling.

Add to that Varania's betrayal.  She treats Fenris as if he had abandoned her somehow.  I always get the sense she never expected to simply be left to fend for herself in the wake of the competition, so that she grew to resent the brother who just disappeared.  She acts as if winning her freedom was more a loss, something to be mourned, like it was a shock or surprise.  I tend to think Fenris went to compete thinking he would somehow be able to continue caring for his mother and sister but his memory loss ripped that slim chance away.  Then Varania, who may have been assured by her brother he'd always be nearby, felt abandoned and left on her own.  Her betrayal, then, is more of a "payback" for what she's long perceived as a wrong done her, at least in her eyes.

Really, the one in the situation I think bears the most onus for it is Danarius.  I think he manipulated the situation to get what it is he wanted out of it.  He wanted a powerful bodyguard utterly devoted to his own protection with no ties to anyone or anything else.  He manufactured a competition to find the strongest and most capable warrior/fighter, destroyed whatever bonds the winner possessed for others, deliberately, using memory-wipe and lies, and then proceeded to carve his magic into him.  I don't think he described or admitted, prior, what sort of magic ritual he was going to attempt, because it might have failed and failure isn't something any Tevinter magister wants advertised or known.  No, he basically used a competition to seek out the most promising candidate, never saying what, really, was going to happen to the "winner".  He certainly never saw Fenris as anything more than a tool and Fenris' family was, to Danarius, little more than liabilities to be removed. 
Removing Fenris family, too, would've required multiple means.  Wiping Fenris' memory was an essential part of the process, of course.  But to get them from approaching Fenris and bothering him with questions or concerns for his well-being, demonstrating care for him -- that would've required some sort of effort, too, I think.  I just wonder what sort of lies Danarius used to get Fenris' mother and sister to stay away from him.  Perhaps he told them Fenris no longer cared nor wanted to see them.  Perhaps, even, Varania had tried to see Fenris anyway and been rebuffed, not understanding he no longer remembered her thanks to Danarius' memory wipe.  Such a thing would've worked to instill in Varania a heady sense of resentment, at least, and whatever pains and hardships she endured in the years that followed would've made it worse.  

None of which really justifies Varania's betrayal after Fenris, surely, described to her what had really happened.  But it would've been difficult to overcome, too, if Danarius himself stoked it with some additional misunderstandings and deceits.  Varania is a tool to be used by then and Danarius has shown an affinity for using baits to entrap Fenris before, so it's not at all strange to think he would do so in this event, too.

I don't really blame anyone who chooses to have Fenris kill Varania.  Sometimes I wonder if it's better Varania die than to survive and possibly come back later to make another attempt against Fenris' life.  Resentment like that doesn't just go away.  But I myself pity her, think she's one of the most pathetic characters in the game, and just plain not worth adding to the burden Fenris already carries of self-resentment.  I just derive far more satisfaction watching Fenris rip out Danarius' throat.  THAT is a perfect moment.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

See, I see Varania's actions toward Fenris as similar to Fenris's actions toward the Fog Warriors who saved him. She had every reason to give him a chance, and he had every reason to fight for the Fog Warriors rather than against them... but old habits die hard, and subimtting to Magisters is the oldest habit for every Imperial citizen or slave. Varania never had a period of "true freedom," like what Fenris had with the Fog Warriors, in order to break her out of that pattern.

(I also don't think that she got in touch with Danarius... rather I think Danarius had a standing offer with her - if your brother gets in touch with me, let me know and I'll make you my apprentice once I reclaim him.)

In fact, I think Fenris's betrayal of the Fog Warriors may be worse than Varania's betrayal of Fenris, because as I said above... he had already gotten the taste of freedom. It was only the combination of that taste of freedom and the resulting horror of killing those who cared about him that allowed him to break out of the slave mindset. Varania has had neither of those experiences, so it's perfectly understandable that she's still a slave in her mind.

I think that Varania is utterly pitiful. I wish there were some way to help her beyond having Fenris not kill her. It's possible to turn this experience of having no choice but to hurt someone you once cared about into a legitimate desire for freedom, but without the basis that the Fog Warriors provided Fenris with, the experience of people showing you true caring and compassion, I do not see that as a likely result.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juin 2011 - 09:07 .

[Arquen]

In my head I see danarius setting up a competition for advertised as "the strongest fighter wins the prize of freedom for their family." Honestly why would he have to reveal anything until the winner was presented to him and he could be all "freedom for your family....but you are now mine." Kinda thing. Its so ambiguous you can make danarius that evil or less so saying leto found a competition and knew it involved selling himself into slavery to danarius, but agreed anyway.

Same with varania really, except in each circumstance she still has freedom and choices. I just can't feel sorry for her.

[Caoilfhionn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Varania never had a period of "true freedom," like what Fenris had with the Fog Warriors, in order to break her out of that pattern.

(I also don't think that she got in touch with Danarius... rather I think Danarius had a standing offer with her - if your brother gets in touch with me, let me know and I'll make you my apprentice once I reclaim him.)

In fact, I think Fenris's betrayal of the Fog Warriors may be worse than Varania's betrayal of Fenris, because as I said above... he had already gotten the taste of freedom. It was only the combination of that taste of freedom and the resulting horror of killing those who cared about him that allowed him to break out of the slave mindset. Varania has had neither of those experiences, so it's perfectly understandable that she's still a slave in her mind.

I can't help but think that regardless of what Varania has "had to do since Mother died", there is the suggestion there that she's managed to find a footing for herself in the world. By this point, it's been nine years since Fenris escaped from Danarius (three years of running when you meet him, plus Act 1 and 2 timeskips) and she would have been freed before that happened. We have the further evidence that she's been working as a tailor, which is a skilled position, so even if she's living in squalor, she's being paid for her work. It may not be a "good" life, but it doesn't sound worse on the surface than the lives of most elves in the Alienage. So I'm not sure what you mean by having tasted "true freedom", geekgirl. She seems to be living as free as any freed slave could hope to, and after nine years I doubt she's still got the ingrained response to being commanded that a slave might expect to have.

As for who contacted whom, I don't see adding my two cents to it matters much, but I figured that Danarius knew of Fenris' sister and had people watching to see if he ever contacted her, then went to her with the offer when he did.

Which all still makes me think that trying to become a magister at the expense of her brother's freedom is her trying to enjoy the "good life" at last, without regard to who it hurts. It may be overly black-and-white of me, but whatever she may have suffered doesn't justify her choice to ruin someone else's life so she can move up in the world, and I have no pity at all for her because of that choice. I see her pretty much as another Goldanna- just a mercenary b*tch who happens to be related to a good man by blood.

But then I'm aware I'm a very black-and-white person. ^^;

Modifié par Caoilfhionn, 08 juin 2011 - 09:31 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arquen wrote...

In my head I see danarius setting up a competition for advertised as "the strongest fighter wins the prize of freedom for their family." Honestly why would he have to reveal anything until the winner was presented to him and he could be all "freedom for your family....but you are now mine." Kinda thing. Its so ambiguous you can make danarius that evil or less so saying leto found a competition and knew it involved selling himself into slavery to danarius, but agreed anyway.

Same with varania really, except in each circumstance she still has freedom and choices. I just can't feel sorry for her.

I don't understand how you can sympathize with Fenris and not with Varania. Fenris was exactly the same as her before he was shown what compassion and freedom were by the Fog Warriors. Varania has only the experience of being a Magister's servant, which does not differ enough from being a slave to give her the frame of reference that booted Fenris out of his apathy.

Also, I imagine the contest was something like this "The best warrior among my slaves will be enhanced with lyrium and given a place as my most prized bodyguard; in addition, he will be granted any reasonable boon for which he asks." Leto, being young and foolish, thought that bodyguard sounded better than whatever menial job he had at the time, and that freedom for his family would be the best possible boon.

I don't think any citizen of the Tevniter Imperium can be said to truly have freedom or choices. Without the background given to Fenris by the Fog Warriors, there is no basis on which to know what to do with your freedom. Even then, without Hawke & co, Fenris has no idea what to do other than run and fight... he has no idea how to build a life, how to live, how to make his own choices unless he has friends who truly understand freeodm to set an example.

Varania is what happens if a slave is given freedom without support. She's a tragedy, and an object lesson as to why more slaves don't just run away. If you don't have someone who understands freedom to teach you how to make choices, how to be free, then as a freed slave you're basically chum in the water for those who would keep you a slave in the mind, if not in name.

[Arquen]

I don't see it that way. I can see where your coming from in thinking that Varania is a poor lost soul thrown into the chaos of the world of freedom. However, as Caoilfhionn pointed out she has been free for a very long time. Just because she didn't live with Fog Warriors for a couple of months didn't mean she never saw how free elves lived. She learned a trade, had a job, was "a servant, not a slave," and even "left the service" of her master. She could make choices and do things Fenris never could.

To me she isn't worth pitying, she was given a chance at Freedom, and allowed to live free. To say that wasn't worth much because it was a "hard life" does not justify her choice to sell out her brother to a worse fate than she had ever suffered just for a chance at power. It is beyond selfishness, and it is her choice, she could have left Danarius and Fenris behind. She was free to do so, but didn't because she thought only of herself.

I never believed Fenris was "exactly the same as her" at any time. He was a slave who never dreamed of freedom and she was a servant who got paid for her work, could choose to leave her employer and could move around and do as she wished. Being a servant differs enough from a slave because you have the choice to leave your employer. You have the choice to go somewhere else, refuse to do something, and you get paid wages - money you can do what you want with. Very different from a slave.

As for what to do with your freedom. I just won't go there. The problem of freedom is insanely deep and goes down many rabbit holes. Nobody is truly free, and nobody knows what to do with freedom.

Varania had choices, Fenris did not. Even when it came to the Fog Warriors it was "inevitable" that he ended up back with his master until he realized what he had done. To me the Fog warriors didn't show him what to do with freedom, but more that freedom was possible to achieve, and that is why he ran. Varania on the other hand was sent with her mother out of her slave life ... we don't know to where, or where she learned her tailor skill, or who her mother was or how she died or anything. Perhaps knowing more could allow for pity, but as is she was able to live free from slavery which would have denied her basic human rights.

[tankgirly]

by MrMongoose

This will fit into our prompt nicely. XD

[Tealsie]

Arquen wrote...
 Varania on the other hand was sent with her mother out of her slave life ... we don't know to where, or where she learned her tailor skill, or who her mother was or how she died or anything. Perhaps knowing more could allow for pity, but as is she was able to live free from slavery which would have denied her basic human rights.

Just a random thought... and I have nothing to back this up, so pardon me while I spin a little:

Perhaps their mother was, or became shortly after she and Varania were freed, ill. As a slave, she may have been taken care of at least somewhat. The two may have been thrown into a kind of hell, trying to take care of her. It may have been because of this that Varania became a tailor(other than just needing money for everyday expenses, they would then need money for healing/medicine too. Perhaps didn't have a decent place to stay. Maybe she sometimes went without food so that everything could go to her mother instead. Typical sort of tragedy. In a way, the mother dying would be a different kind of "freedom". Varania would be alone, but she would only have herself to look after.

...Like I said, nothing really behind any of that. Just wondering if perhaps there was something that happened to kind of "harden" Varania. Also turn her into more of a 'survivor'/bent on self-preservation. To the point that she would betray her own brother.

...dunno.

[steph01423]

tankgirly wrote...



by MrMongoose

This will fit into our prompt nicely. XD

Bahahaha I love this! My favorite part of this is how his ears perk up in the last frame. LOL!

[Dr. Doctor]

BPearl12 wrote...

I always suspected that Fenris didn't fully know what he was getting in to when he agreed to the ritual. He probalby understood that getting the markings was painful and risky, but I'm not sure he knew he would be losing his memories. He may have thought that his status as an elite warrior in a rich magister's house would have let him continue to help his family out after they were freed.

Danarius: Well now that this whole "who's the deadliest" competition is worked out now we can test out the ritual.

Hadriana: You didn't test it out first.

Danarius: It is of no consequence I can always test it out on one of my other warriors.

Hadriana: The ones that your champion killed in pitched battle?

Danarius: Oh. Right. Forgot about that.

Hadriana: So what do we do now?

Danarius: We perform the ritual.

Hadriana: Without testing it? Master, forgive be but I get the feeling that this will come back to bite us.

Danarius: Please, I am a Magister of the Imperium. What's the worst that could happen?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arquen wrote...

I don't see it that way. I can see where your coming from in thinking that Varania is a poor lost soul thrown into the chaos of the world of freedom. However, as Caoilfhionn pointed out she has been free for a very long time. Just because she didn't live with Fog Warriors for a couple of months didn't mean she never saw how free elves lived. She learned a trade, had a job, was "a servant, not a slave," and even "left the service" of her master. She could make choices and do things Fenris never could.

To me she isn't worth pitying, she was given a chance at Freedom, and allowed to live free. To say that wasn't worth much because it was a "hard life" does not justify her choice to sell out her brother to a worse fate than she had ever suffered just for a chance at power. It is beyond selfishness, and it is her choice, she could have left Danarius and Fenris behind. She was free to do so, but didn't because she thought only of herself.

I never believed Fenris was "exactly the same as her" at any time. He was a slave who never dreamed of freedom and she was a servant who got paid for her work, could choose to leave her employer and could move around and do as she wished. Being a servant differs enough from a slave because you have the choice to leave your employer. You have the choice to go somewhere else, refuse to do something, and you get paid wages - money you can do what you want with. Very different from a slave.

As for what to do with your freedom. I just won't go there. The problem of freedom is insanely deep and goes down many rabbit holes. Nobody is truly free, and nobody knows what to do with freedom.

Varania had choices, Fenris did not. Even when it came to the Fog Warriors it was "inevitable" that he ended up back with his master until he realized what he had done. To me the Fog warriors didn't show him what to do with freedom, but more that freedom was possible to achieve, and that is why he ran. Varania on the other hand was sent with her mother out of her slave life ... we don't know to where, or where she learned her tailor skill, or who her mother was or how she died or anything. Perhaps knowing more could allow for pity, but as is she was able to live free from slavery which would have denied her basic human rights.

When I was younger I did a lot of reading... and some of the books were about the American South post civil war. Sharecroppers (or other freed slaves doing the jobs they used to do as slaves) often had very little practical freedom (Here's some good PBS-based info on that situation).  I'm thinking that a freed slave in Tevinter is essentially equivalent to a sharecropper, or an ex-slave in a Jim Crow society.

From one of the PBS articles on Sharecroppers, this first person account: 

"After they told us we were free -- even then they would not let us live as man and wife together. And when we would run away to be free, the white people would not let us come on their places to see our mothers, wives, sisters, or fathers. We was made to leave or go back and live as slaves."

As Varania "leaving her master," I kind of assume that she was given the money to do so by Danarius, as part of the trap he was setting for Fenris.

Basically, I see no reason to believe that an ex-slave in Tevinter would be any freer than a serf in Medieval times, or a freed slave in the Jim Crow south. If she had money, it was probably barely enough to live on. When you have only enough money to keep yourself from starving if you work all day and all night, you can't just "choose to go somewhere else," because going somewhere else costs money.

Being a servant differs from a slave sometimes, but sometimes they are functionally the same thing, especially a society where your "kind" is seen as inferior, as elves are everywhere but among the Dalish and Rivaini. In the post-Emancipation south, being a sharecropper was sometimes worse than being a slave was. Sometimes servants can be denied their basic human rights, because no one will help them. No one will fight for them. When they are robbed the police do not care, because they are not rich and powerful (see the linked sharecropper accounts). I believe that it's very possible that Varania was as miserable as a freed slave in the south would have been, and as powerless and oppressed.

It's not always easy for a servant to move around or find new employment. Even in Victorian England you basically needed references or you were screwed, and if your master didn't choose to give you a reference than god help you, and get ready to starve on the street. The other option was to get one of your servant friends to get you a job. Varania and her mother were "freed" with no references and no friends in the servant class, so they probably had to take whatever work they were offered, with little chance to move elsewhere. Someone in that situation would not understand what freedom was like at all. I believe that in Tevinter, only the Magisters are truly free.

Of course, all this is supposition. The Tevinter Imperium could be sunshine and daisies for everyone who isn't a slave. But I don't see any reason to believe that is so... and in societies where slavery is prevalent, freed members of the slave race are often not really free.

[beckaliz]

@CulturalGeekGirl

I marvel at your ability to have two intense discussions going at once in multiple threads. @_@;; Wow.

[ReiSilver]

@CulturalGeekGirl this is what I suspected as well, we have no proof of what happened to Varania while she was free but we have seen how alienage elves live in DAO and DA2, with the threat of nobles coming in and basically doing as they please and we know that elves who leave alienages are targets of abuse and can have their homes burned down, and that was in Fereldan and we know the history of what can happen to freed slaves.
We don't know what happened to Varania but I believe she must have thought the only way to get control over her own life was to be a magister with the price of selling out her brother back into slavery.
What she did was still a terrible betrayal but not one I'd condemn her to death for.

@Harle Cerulean I think since Fenris will argue for a reason to spare her I don't see it as an order, and I think having a character who has contributed to the death of a sibling being present really helps, be that Hawke or Varric, who can also kill his sibling for a betrayal, he is able to weigh in telling him 'it wont help' (I just love when companions will chime in and show bonds between each other outside of the PC Varric cares about the broody elf!) it makes it seem more imploring then ordering.

[ReiSilver]

Ok I did a silly mini comic about my Hawke and Fenris



deviantart link

[Tealsie]

ReiSilver wrote...

Ok I did a silly mini comic about my Hawke and Fenris

[snip cuteness]

deviantart link

Poor little Hawke. Six months? Don't worry dear, you've only got, what... 2 1/2 years left?  hang in there...

[Meeszy Alexy]

ReiSilver wrote...

Ok I did a silly mini comic about my Hawke and Fenris

-snip-

deviantart link

Awww, look at little chibi Fenris' cute little face!

[Arquen]

I want that Fenris as a chibi doll to huggle lmao. His face is so cute. Im left with d'awwwww.

As for the whole sharecropper thing. I too have read a lot about slavery of all kinds and do know quite a bit about sharecroppers, indentured servants and how free slaves lived in the south.

However, I view tevinter much like ancient rome. It was based off rome so that is where my mind goes. Yet when I see varania and realize what Fenris went through just to find her and get her to kirkwall I can't help but think she had choices. She had a crappy life as an alienage tevinter elf, no doubt but to seriously accept coin and an offer from her brother just to bring him back to slavery for personal gain. I just understand fenris' rage at that, and have no qualms letting her die. If I knew a backstory or more about her then perhaps I could feel pity, but as it is there isn't anything to suggest she lived a worse life than Fenris did under dansrius. Moreover, she states he got the better deal. That is so ridiculous to say because how does she know what he has had to go through? She assumes her life is just the worst. Fenris' sacrifice means nothing to her. She implies she hates him for doing it. That or she is jealous of it, but either way she basically says "thanks for nothing! I've suffered more so you deserve this and I deserve my shot at power." Sounds familiar "a sniveling social climber who would sell her own children for a chance at power." Sorry, no matter her life as a free slave she is not pity worthy to me.