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[Dr. Doctor]

Abraham Lincoln once said, "If you want to test a man's character, give him power."

That statement sums up what magic does to people. Mages have the abillity to bend the elements to their will, heal the sick, and consort with spirits. In the case of the Magisters this power gives them the abillity to subjugate those without their power. Merrill uses her magic to help restore the history of her people, and to find Tamlen. Bethany doesn't even want her magic because of how her family is constantly moving to protect her.

The key thing is that its not magic itself that is dangerous, its what it brings out in those who have it that is dangerous.

[ReiSilver]

Arquen wrote...
I like how people immediately go to Wynne because truly she does benefit from having a spirit I suppose. Her spirit allows her to help and heal people, yes. However, her spirit is also killing her slowly and she does not have much time. She would be dead already if not for magic touching her life, but really - the benefit is that she gets a few more months? years? Not to mention if magic hadn't touched her life in the first place she would not have had a spirit enter her anyways. So, curious to say that she benefited from magic when magic is the cause of her dying either way.

Wynne is already quite old, given the medievil setting most people wouldn't get much older then Wynne. It seems to me before the attack on the tower her life wasn't all the affected by the spirit watching over her, then she was killed defending another mage and the spirit bought her back at the cost of shortening its life. Wynne now has extra time she just doesn't know how long it will last. I can't see how being connected to the spirit has attributed to her lifespan in any negative way

Arquen wrote...

"Hawkes life can be just as sucky magic or no. Even if a mage has a very
good life if you examine someone's whole life you're going to find dark
points, it would be impossible to separate the fault to magic or
something else. You'd be looking for a mage whose life is perfect which
you're just not going to find because life doesn't work that way, magic
or no. One might as well ask if anyone's life has been benifitted by red
hair."

This is probably the best point made. Magic is not the cause of people's lives being what they are. People who are not touched by magic may still have just as oppressed, terrible lives as those who are touched by magic. Yet because magic comes with a lot more weight than red hair it does impact a person's life. As stated society plays a role in this, but so does the fact that mages can turn into abominations and attract demons. A normal person without magic does not. So it is not something they worry about - being overtaken by a demon, hunted by a demon, coerced by a demon and even the fade is not something people who are not mages worry about. Not looking for a perfect mage life, but does a person benefit from being touched by magic. Can they be compared to a normal person who has potential to suffer, but does not have the same traits or weaknesses a mage is exposed to.

I actually think the risk of demons seems higher in DA2/Kirkwall then it is in the greater world. If we go back to DAO the harrowing purposefully pits a young mage against a demon, in a controlled environment yes, but the point is to see if the mage can come out unscathed. This says to me normally that either demons finding mages in the fade is not all that common or there are ways that even a child mage can protect themselves from having to deal with fade spirits. Otherwise what would be the point in the Harrowing if a mage meets demons in the fade all the time?

I kind of wish this was explored more in game, we've seen possessions and played mages but we don't get much insight into how actual training goes or how mages 'normal' dreams work. We see a lot of Special cases, an untrained child under a great deal of stress dealing with his father being poisoned, Uldred had the demons he actively summoned turning on him causing the trouble in the tower and then we have Kirkwall with it's mystery files hinting that the veil is torn or that the city itself is tainted in some way and being right next to Sundermount where the veil is also torn and dangerous.

But if we bring this back to the "does anyone benefit by being touched by magic" then you'd have to weigh risk vs reward, the Dalish and the Mages Collective show, at least to me, that the risk of magic can be outweighed and managed to become something beneficial.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Yeah, magic is essentially superpowers, and with that comes great responsibility.

I'd still choose to have the superpowers, though. The thing I hate most in fiction is when people with powers complain about just wanting to be normal. I wonder if most people really feel that way. Like, if you got a random set of superpowers (roll on a table of the Marvel Universe) tomorrow, would you be happy or annoyed?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 22 juin 2011 - 06:27 .

[Arquen]

I too would like more insight into what mage training is like. The Harrowing is briefly touched on in DA:O when you play a mage and actually go through it. It is easy to see how so many mages can fall prey to demons though, especially in the fade. There is also the idea that abominations aren't all horrible monsters, but more like possessed beings such as Connor and even Hadrianna at the end. Completely lost to humanity but still able to retain a human form, and Connor is even salvageable.

The best argument against Fenris' statement about who actually benefits from being touched by magic is that MAGIC itself is not the cause of the negative, but the person wielding it. However, his statement still stands as valid that any person, but especially a weak person does not truly benefit from having magic. Other than being a healer, helping people, and being able to conjure powers beyond the normal, mages are struck with both sides. One being the attraction of demons to their power, the other being themselves and how they have the potential to turn on anyone especially if provoked. The best example so far is still Wynne in that she has a beneficial spirit that is allowing her to live longer, but having magic did not benefit Wynne I would say. Look at her life and how she came to the circle. The circle surely does not make a case of benefit, but again that is society. As stated previously about Wynne she was old perhaps, but she still would not have been in the fade, would not have attracted a spirit, and definitely would have had a different life and even death if it weren't for magic. Better life is debatable, but no doubt her spirit is not just a boon, but also a curse in some ways. Also, spirit aside I don't know if anyone would choose the superpowers when the risk is becoming an abomination or a demon host. It isn't so much the responsibility but the strength of will one must possess in order to withstand that temptation your whole life.

As Doctor said.. offer a man power and you will see his true character. The Harrowing serves very well (I think) to root out strong mages from weak mages, but apostates aren't privileged to this and within the system of the circle (as we all know) there are many flaws. Kirkwall is notwithstanding since it is an "enigma," and nobody really knows what goes on in that circle or what is up with the veil and all the blood mages/abominations. Yet again an example of how magic is NOT benefiting the people who are being touched by it in Kirkwall.

Rei again said it best, risk vs reward. Magic has its uses and the use of magic can benefit people. Yet the flip side is also true, that magic has such potential for destruction, oppression, and unstoppable force.

Modifié par Arquen, 22 juin 2011 - 06:52 .

[ReiSilver]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Yeah, magic is essentially superpowers, and with that comes great responsibility.

I'd still choose to have the superpowers, though. The thing I hate most in fiction is when people with powers complain about just wanting to be normal. I wonder if most people really feel that way. Like, if you got a random set of superpowers (roll on a table of the Marvel Universe) tomorrow, would you be happy or annoyed?

That's a pet peeve of mine too, I've spent a bit of time wondering about how certain combat spells could translate into mundane uses and it's now my head canon that Marric Hawke uses his magic to heat his bath water and chill his cold drinks on hot days (when he's sure he can get away with it of coarse). If someone did come up with a way for mages to give up their magic without being made tranquil my Hawke still wouldn't go for it as he's accepted it as a big part of who he is and finds ways to have fun with it.
I'm not sure if Fenris would be irritated by him using magic a lot or approve of magic being put to a harmless/practical use XP

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also wonder how the Dalish and the Rivaini train their mages. I do not believe they are necessarily harrowed in the way that Circle mages are. It seems that the Dalish only tranquil someone in extreme cases, when they've already been touched by demons and cannot be saved. And there was a time when all elves had magic (supposedly) and could practically live in the Fade. I wonder if the Harrowing is truly necessary, or if it is the best way to deal with that particular problem.

In a just system, mages who are too weak or who do not wish to undergo the harrowing wouldn't simply be tranquilled or killed, they'd be sequestered somewhere with older mages and some Templars who are willing to deal with the fallout if one does become possessed. I wonder how frequently that would actually occur, since pre-harrowed apprentices don't seem to be getting possessed left and right. I sometimes wonder if the Harrowing is acting like a beacon, allowing demons to know that a particular mage exists, and thus making it easier for them to find him or her.

Also, I don't think any experiences in Kirkwall should be an indication of how susceptible mages are to demonic possession in general. The veil there is ridiculously thin, and it's basically Silent Hill (or at the very least, Innsmouth.)

And... and this is a horrible example, but the kind of place my mind goes late at night... Fenris's powers are what allowed him to eventually gain his freedom, to eventually find friendship, and love. Were it not for his markings, he would never have been on that island, or escaped, or met Hawke.

When he was a powerless slave, Fenris fought for power, sought it out. I often think that Danarius's biggest mistake was taking Fenris's memories, if that is indeed what he did. A man who knows he asked for power is much less likely to resent it.

One thing I do like about magic is that it is... completely random. Anyone can be born with it, from a noble to the lowliest elven slave. Except in cases like Tevinter, this makes it much more difficult for an oppressive government to completely dominate its citizenry... anyone one of them could be born a mage and develop great power. Now, if we do learn that Andraste was indeed a mage (which has been hinted quite a few times) that would be an example of a time when the existence of magic allowed someone who was oppressed to do a great deal of good for a huge amount of people through the medium of magic.

Magic is a force, no more one of good or ill than any other form of power... except that it seems to be significantly more random in who gets it, meaning it is harder to control. It's like a lottery that anyone can win, or lose... another element of chance in the world.

[DreamerM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
 The veil there is ridiculously thin, and it's basically Silent Hill

Homygawd. Clap if you believe in crossover-fairies.

Hawke and Friends. In Silent Hill. My brain has melted.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I often think that Danarius's biggest mistake was taking Fenris's memories, if that is indeed what he did. A man who knows he asked for power is much less likely to resent it.

Well, he didn't ask for power, in as such. I don't think it was the markings he wanted, he was after the Boon that came with them. The one he could use to free his mother and sister. That actually would be totally in keeping with Fenris personality as we come to understand it. I'm not surprised that he would work his ass off for the chance to improve the lot of his loved ones, not really caring what doing so would cost him.

[Arquen]

Alright I saw the coast prompt and I did some Fenris/F!Hawke fluff. It is no doubt just fluffy, puffy, mushy crap, but I liked it. Maybe in a weird mood, like Hawke was in my story, LOL. Anyways, for those interested I would love feedback. I usually don't write mushy stuff, but I just went with it.

PROMPT: COAST:
FULL story at my LiveJournal

PREVIEW:
Hawke stared into the flames of the little fire she had made for herself. Her lavender hued eyes caught in the light. The sound of the waves softly lapping against the shore seemed to soothe her somewhat.

She took in a deep breath taking in the silence around her.

"One week..." she whispered to the wind around her tilting her head to the open sky. It was twilight, the stars were just now making an appearance as the sun blazed on the horizon.

"One week since mother..." she realized before she knew it that the tears were stinging her eyes again.
She cursed her weakness, clenched her fist and her teeth and thought of something else. Something besides her mother's cold eyes, mutated flesh... besides her brother's last breath in her arms and his body being ravaged by the blight. It was.. no good, her mind wandered back to her grief. Grief she didn't show anyone. The very reason she came out here night after night, made her fire, listened to the sounds of the coast. The mansion was empty, her "friends" seemed to come and go as they saw fit. Sandal and Bodhan always lurking about. She could find no peace there, but here. Here on the wounded coast...

"The wounded coast.." she laughed. She wiped her eyes with her hand, pulled her cloak tighter around her. "ahh what am I doing here night after night. I bet everyone is at the Hanged Man drinking away as per usual." A smile
traced on her lips. She thought of all her companions and how nobody had doted on her about her grief. Nobody except Aveline, but she expected as much. Then her mind wandered to him, and her blood turned cold in her
veins. He had come to her mansion the night it had happened. His attempt to console her had been laughable, but ironically it was the only thing she wanted to hear in that moment. It had ended so abruptly between them, but with all that had happened now it seemed a distant past. "Fenris.." she mouthed to the stars, letting herself relax and
closing her eyes for a moment.

The moment didn't last long. The sound of rustling nearby sent Hawke for her staff lying nearby. She
gripped it tightly, and allowed the staff to glow a little to alert the intruder she was not easy prey.

"Come out of there before I start lighting up the brush like a bonfire!" Her eyes narrowed at the brush.

"Hawke? What are you doing out here in the middle of nowhere?" A familiar voice said as a lanky figure stepped from the shadows. It was him.

Hawke put down her staff nonchalantly, and stared at him with an icy gaze. One she had perfected over the weeks since their night together.

"I could ask you the same thing, Fenris" her tone came out sharper than she had meant it.
--------------------- See link for continuation ------------

Modifié par Arquen, 22 juin 2011 - 11:04 .

[Annarl]

Arquen wrote...

.....snip

Fenris: Is there anyone who's life has been touched by magic that actually benefits?

I thought about it and pondered it, and I came up with nothing. Sure, Hawke benefits slightly but it's more a burden especially in the last act and even her/his whole life having to be in hiding. Anders definitely doesn't benefit.. neither does Bethany really especially if she goes to the circle. Hell... name one person who DoES benefit... Danarius? -- no not really.. fool is dead. Morrigan? -- she ends up with a demon child and a psycho mom. Flemeth may be one to benefit from magic, but can her powers really be called magic? She has such power.

Tevinter magisters -- yeah that was pretty much all I came up with, but then I thought they really don't benefit so much because they constantly have to vie for more power and backstab to get it. *sigh* Oh Fenris, you are so wise sometimes and don't even know it.
.......

This question could have been a very good theme in the game, especially in Act 3.  This is where the subtly of choice was lost in the game ...how do we view magic and those who have the ability to use it.  Are bad mages the result of the repressive system or are they inherently more likely to be corrupt (like politicians:lol: just kidding) Should the circle stay prison like or become more open like a school (my option).  Or should there be no system?  And this is where Fenris and his life experiences could have played a more important role.  Instead, we have over done bad blood mages and rotten rapist templars.

Modifié par omearaee, 22 juin 2011 - 03:13 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I wish that we could have seen the College of Magi in Cumberland. From the sound of it it's more of a place of magical education than a prison for mages.

Here's a question, why in the Maker's name would anyone think that having a Circle in a place where the Veil is wonky? According to the codex entries for The Bone Pit and the Enigma of Kirkwall, the magisters took what was already a pretty thin area of the veil, and made it even thinner. That could explain why Hawke and Company can't go one week without fighting demons and rogue mages.

[DreamerM]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 From the sound of it it's more of a place of magical education than a prison for mages.

Which, I think, is how a Circle needs to be if it's going to "work." Yes there's a risk involved in letting the mages have some degree of freedom, but Meredith demonstrated what will inevitably happen if you try and control EVERYTHING.

[Patriciachr34]

@Arquen...loved your story.

About magic...It seems to me the problem about magic and mages is that he circles have been set up to contain the mages, not find ways to make them useful to the general populace or even integrated them. The chantry keeps vilifying magic, equating its use to sin. This attitude is the primary reason we do not see mages integrated in the general populace for the public good. The chantry teachings keeps the general populace fearful and allows the chantry to maintain control of the circle and gives them an excuse to have their own army. The same teachings keep the chantry from finding ways to teach the mages how to be useful. Thus the mages either accept their lot or become criminal (apostate).

[Dr. Doctor]

To me it would make sense for Mages and Templars to work together. People don't want to work with the Templars because they come in, haul off the mage in chains and threaten to harm those who ask about him/her. The concept of hunting down every single mage and locking them in a Circle for the rest of their lives is infeasable.

There's more mages in Thedas then there are Templars to go and find them all and there can't be enough room to put them all into the Circles. If the Circle acted as a way to train mages in how to use their powers and how to use them in the outside world could do a lot of good. Right now, mages pretty much lean how to use their powers and then do pretty much nothing with them. If mages were allowed to live and work in society as people not prisoners there's a good chance that there would be fewer incidents of blood magic.

There still would need to be Templars to hunt down those who practice blood magic or use their magic to harm others along with fighting demons, abominations, and other assorted baddies from the Fade. But other than that it would be the Circle's job to provide the training and education required to help those with magic master their powers and to educate the populace on how magic works.

The only other thing is that there would need to be some sort of Council consisting of the First Enchanters, Knight Commanders, and various rulers from Thedas to help govern the use of magic. (Think the White Council from the Dresden Files)

[Patriciachr34]

I agree with your assessment, but what you're suggesting will require a shift in power from the chantry to civil authorities. The chantry is not going to give up the power it currently has without a fight (enter Cassandra). I think that is why what happens in DA2 is so pivotal. Regardless of who you side with, the Templars break away from the chantry to hunt rebellious mages. The mages are also tired of oppressive chantry oversight and open rebel across Thedas. Whether Fenris' words ring true or not will depend on the overall nature of the mage rebellion. Will the majority of the mages use blood magic to further their cause or will they refrain? In the end, there must be a resolution, one way or another.

[Dr. Doctor]

The question that I have is what is the ultimate objective of Cassadra, Leliana, and the other Seekers? Without control over the Mages or Templars the Chantry has lost the majority of its political and martial abilities. Cassandra states that the Seekers are out to prevent war, not to avenge the Chantry.

Whatever the outcome of what started in Kirkwall is, I get the feeling that the power of the Chantry is going to be maginalized.

[Arquen]

Not to mention these suggestions are heading straight for Tevinter Imperium territory. A council of powerful people who govern mages, with mages on said council. This is exactly what started the Tevinter Imperium structure. I don't doubt they started well enough, but pretty soon it degenerates into politics and backstabbing and who has the most power wins. Oh yes... blood magic is forbidden in Tevinter less we forget. Unless, you know.. it's useful to the mage attempting to gain power.

Oh Fenris, don't distract me with your logic!

[Patriciachr34]

@ Dr. Doctor...Cassandra's hope is that Hawke can be the voice of peace in all of this. However, our Hawke is currently no where to be found.

@Arquen...True. There must be a neutral governing body and strict oversight of mages. I've always liked the idea of licensing mages to perform magic. Much like a doctor, lawyer, or accountant they would have to participate in some sort of program like professional continuing accreditation or some such system to maintain their license.

[Arquen]

5 hours no updates?! For shame!
Honestly I dont think a neutral ruling body exists. Your dealing with basically restricting a group of people or changing it so they have lack governing. Neither way works... to much freedom and you have tevinter to little and you have kirkwall. Where is the middle. Also, that one line is exactly the theme of da2. As I said I heard him say it and went "damn, good question."

[Garridian]

It seems to me that when ever I come on line every one has been gone for hours, I am on the West coasr is that the problem?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

A neutral body could be composed of non-Andrastean elves and dwarfs. In my ideal setup, the patrols that seek out untrained mages would be composed of a mage, a templar, and then a neutral elf or dwarf. (If there aren't enough of those, human rogues would do as well. Get yourself a nice little balanced party going, there.)

There would still be a mage institution and a templar one, but they would be supervised by a coalition of secular leaders and more neutral elves/dwarves. For me, elf rights are as important as mage rights in this coming future, and are, indeed, closely linked, as one of the reasons for the persecution of the Dalish is their sheltering of their keepers. The Chantry is also somewhat responsible for the anti-elf prejudice and the state of the alienages. And there's no shortage of Dusters who would be willing to come topside and have a job where They get to boss someone around for a change. The natural magic resistance there is an additional bonus.

I have more advanced structural and procedural details, but I'm tired and vaguely nonsensical right now.

[Arquen]

Interesting thought about what fenris would say about elven rights. From what we hear he doesn't much care for elves or humans, but he also hates the alienage. Of course he doesn't like the dalish much either. To be perfectly honest fenris would probably support a better life for elves, but then again he might not care. He is an elf that is about as far as his loyalty to his race goes. Understandable I think. He was a slave first an elf second.

[DreamerM]

Arquen wrote...
From what we hear he doesn't much care for elves or humans, but he also hates the alienage. 

Reading Mr. Gaider's short "Fenris" story makes this a bit plainer. Fenris is very proud. This is kind of ironic, since he was property, but he was at least valued property.  He just can't relate to the city elves who live and die in squallor. Even if he knows it would make running and hiding a lot easier if he was willing to wear rags and blend in, he just can't bring himself to do it.

[Arquen]

Proud... that's a good word for it. I know how he feels. He distances himself from the elves as I said because he doesn't relate to them. I like how sebastian says he could be a rolemodel to other elves and slaves. Yet fenris adamently denies he's done anything worth admiring. It is still hard to read if fenris would actually choose to support elven rights in any way, though. I think he would not blend with them because he does not want to hide. He prefers to encounter what comes his way rather than trying to be a shadow always fearful of being found out.

[Dr. Doctor]

Prompt time.

Candles:

The Chantry

Sebastian: (walking towards the door, notices Fenris kneeling in front of the wall of rememberance lighting a candle)
I am sorry.

Fenris: For what?

Sebastian: Your loss. I have heard of what happened at the Hanged Man from the congregation.

Fenris: Then you know what I have done.

Sebastian: What have you done?

Fenris: I murdered my sister, I destroyed the last of the life I left behind in Tevinter.

Sebastian: Yet here you are lighting a candle for her in the chantry.

Fenris: I feel like a monster for what I did. That anger, it stains my soul as much as these markings.

Sebastian: The fact that you feel repentant about your actions means that you're not a monster. The Maker gives us free will, we can become whatever we choose to be.

Fenris: I have been on the run for so long I haven't thought of what I would do with freedom.

Sebastian: You might try talking to Hawke. That could be a start.

Fenris: I have talked to...(notices Sebastian staring at him)...That is a subject best left alone.

Sebastian: Well, now that you have your freedom working up the nerve to talk to her is something that you'll have plenty of time for.

Fenris: Was that humor?

Sebastian: Indeed it was.

[DreamerM]

Arquen wrote...
 I like how sebastian says he could be a rolemodel to other elves and slaves. Yet fenris adamently denies he's done anything worth admiring.

I need to get the Exiled Prince DLC...dang u Bioware, I don't wanna pay $7 for an archer!

There is a Banter conversation Fenris can have with Varric where Veric will ask him why he doesn't make things easier on everyone and at least dress less conspicuously. Fenris replies that it doesn't matter what he wears, his markings would still show.

I call B.S on that. I doubt those racist humans can really tell the difference between one tattooed elf and another (although to be fair, most elf tattoos don't glow, although Fenris's markings only seem to glow when he decides to use them, which he shouldn't have to do if he kept his cover intact).

Most elves who live amoung humans are told they are worthless, day after day. Fenris actually values himself and sticks up for himself. That alone is a quality more elves could stand to learn from.