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[ReiSilver]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Deliciously-Demonic wrote...

Why so little M!HawkeXFenris? D: I actually prefer that pairing to Fem!Hawke/Fenris. I know, blasphemy.

I'm totally with you in the m!Hawke/Fenris camp. My Fanfic is m!Hawke and Rival!Fenris. 8]

*raises hand* I also went for M!mageHawke rivalmancing Fenris and now I can't settle on anything else ^^; I might friendmance him with an FHawke one day but Marric would be sad facing in the back of my head the whole time... gees Marric learn to share!

On the end choice subject... I'll eventually do a templar siding run with my aggressive Hawke... but I just can't do it otherwise, the right of annulment is just wrong, going in to kill everyone because some other guy blew up a building to satify the bloodlust of the rest of the city? I can't justify that to myself, I'm just too focused on the rights of the individual/lives of the individual to sacrifice them for the sake of order. People can sacrifice themselves for the greater good, if that's their choice, but I can't let others be made to suffer for the greater good, so I always go with the mages (also the reason my Hawkes that let Anders live will likely still never forgive him).

Edit: Top of page, shamelessly posting my own art

Modifié par ReiSilver, 25 juin 2011 - 10:50 .

[tankgirly]

DreamerM wrote...

There are always a few conversations about the worth of the Circle going on on the Plot board. Personally I am not against Circles as a concept. A Mage that joins a circle surrenders their freedom, but gains a safe place to train where they will both be protected from the superstitious public and from the dangers of their own abilities. It's not a bad compromise in theory.

The problem is that it's a system that can easily be abused.

I've only completed one play-through so far, where I sided with the Mages because I couldn't justify killing them for Anders's (GODDAMNIT ANDERS) crime. Also, Meredith is a creeper.

I have no idea if my wisecracking rogue is going to do the same thing.

I remembered TBP mentioned this a while back(before Fenris' identiy was revealed), that most characters/people/places in Dragon Age reflected certain espect of the real world. They do exist, so I don't understand why there is a big fuss about it. Besides, Dragon Age II is about the conflict and the exisiance of the Circle, without it, there is no DAII.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Fenris is completely blinded by hate, though, and supposedly you can only cure him of that by offering him a greater obsession; namely Hawke. He couldn't be accounted for as a voice of reason, unfortunately. On that note, neither can Anders. But magic is in Hawke's blood, dormant or very much awake, and the only reason I can see for siding with the Templars is to become Viscount. But even as Viscount, what can you do to help the mages?

I agree on a Circle as a compulsory school that offers Mages a chance to learn how to use their magic effectively, how to shield themselves from demons. But Mages need to be allowed and accepted outside of the circle. Look at the things Anders can do as a healer. More mages could do that. If magic is meant to "serve man" then why lock them up where they can do bugger all, really? :/

[Arquen]

Honestly my last few pt I couldn't side with the templars because I friend Anders and I can't bear to kill him. Did it in one playthrough (my epic tragic warrior playthrough), and can't do it again. That being said it is also hard for me to rival him and have him side with the templars that way.

Fenris can go either way and I love to take him with me for the mages. I see him saying "told you so..." every time I beat an abomination and orsino. Yet I think he would stand by my hawke even through it all and not be angry just silent hoping hawke is doing the best he/she can. He would respect hawke's choice and follow just to be there good or ill.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Fenris' willingness to follow Hawke makes me queasy. It just feels like he's got a neon sign reading "SLAVE" above him when he'll cave to my Hawke wanting him to go against everything he's believed him for ten or more years. When he stands against Hawke, that's the first moment I thought, "Wow, Fenris, you *are* free."

So, yeah. Much as I understand him wanting to hold on to something he's come to love, anger and hate are both such corruptive forces, I just don't see how that *won't* interfere.

But I suppose if it's a possibility in game, it's more or less canon. XD

Modifié par FenrisDeSolar, 25 juin 2011 - 11:58 .

[Arquen]

Hate is always a double edged sword. The counter to hate is to find something that you can respect and love. Fenris is not blinded by hate to me. He is angry, abused, vengeful, and does HATE magic and magisters with a passion. Fenris will never overcome this hate, but that does not mean that he will be willing to betray Hawke (if you have built his relationship that is.)

Fenris does not need to follow Hawke, he wants to follow Hawke because he respects and/or loves him/her. I used to think of theories about how Fenris pretty much traded one master for another, but I threw it out simply because he chooses to follow Hawke, and it is not an easy choice for him to make. He will betray you and go his own way or suffer death by Hawke because he makes his own choices to do so. Basically, he takes the situation and doesn't just blindingly follow, but begrudgingly follows because he wants to be there for Hawke good or ill. He makes this decision as a free man, and not a blind follower. It is a choice he thinks about, but decides there are more important things in this world than his personal hatred and vendetta against magisters. Moreso, I believe in time he can accept that he is fighting against a type of slavery and as such would join Hawke to make a better solution for the mages. Still maintaining always that mages should not be left uncontrolled.

There no doubt will always be the core belief that Fenris holds about all mages turning to whatever means necessary for advancement and survival. That isn't so far fetched, and I don't think Fenris will ever go back on this. It is because of that I don't see him as a slave following Hawke blindly "just cuz" in the end, but someone who wants to be there for the only friend/love he has ever had. It is a true sign of tolerance and temperance on his part. He is willing to accept Hawke as a counterbalance to his personal feelings because his/her opinion matters so much to Fenris. This is what a true friend and comrade in arms would do. Stand with you no matter what because of the relationship you have built and not because of personal bias.

Modifié par Arquen, 25 juin 2011 - 12:55 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Deliciously-Demonic wrote...

Why so little M!HawkeXFenris? D: I actually prefer that pairing to Fem!Hawke/Fenris. I know, blasphemy.

Sorry. Didn't realize I didn't have any M!HawkeXFenris

Argggh, I just woke up. Too lazy right now to go find some. I work on it after I get... COFFEE! 

And the F-Gen babies in my legacy on TS2 are born, seeing as Ezio *finally* got out of college and he was *thankfully* the heir to the legacy (thank you, magical internet dice that I can use to roll a three-sided die). I need baby Fen, since baby Marian has already been born and  Leandra and Malcolm are expecting baby Bethany & baby Carver. (CHEESECAKE of TWIN DOOM!!! Never feed it to pregnant Sims unless you *want* twins)

=Edit=
*Grammar fail* is going to kill me. As well my own overusage of asterisks.

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 25 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[ForgeDark]

Arquen wrote...

Hate is always a double edged sword. The counter to hate is to find something that you can respect and love. Fenris is not blinded by hate to me. He is angry, abused, vengeful, and does HATE magic and magisters with a passion. Fenris will never overcome this hate, but that does not mean that he will be willing to betray Hawke (if you have built his relationship that is.)

Fenris does not need to follow Hawke, he wants to follow Hawke because he respects and/or loves him/her. I used to think of theories about how Fenris pretty much traded one master for another, but I threw it out simply because he chooses to follow Hawke, and it is not an easy choice for him to make. He will betray you and go his own way or suffer death by Hawke because he makes his own choices to do so. Basically, he takes the situation and doesn't just blindingly follow, but begrudgingly follows because he wants to be there for Hawke good or ill. He makes this decision as a free man, and not a blind follower. It is a choice he thinks about, but decides there are more important things in this world than his personal hatred and vendetta against magisters. Moreso, I believe in time he can accept that he is fighting against a type of slavery and as such would join Hawke to make a better solution for the mages. Still maintaining always that mages should not be left uncontrolled.

There no doubt will always be the core belief that Fenris holds about all mages turning to whatever means necessary for advancement and survival. That isn't so far fetched, and I don't think Fenris will ever go back on this. It is because of that I don't see him as a slave following Hawke blindly "just cuz" in the end, but someone who wants to be there for the only friend/love he has ever had. It is a true sign of tolerance and temperance on his part. He is willing to accept Hawke as a counterbalance to his personal feelings because his/her opinion matters so much to Fenris. This is what a true friend and comrade in arms would do. Stand with you no matter what because of the relationship you have built and not because of personal bias.

On the flip side of that - shouldn't Hawke stand with Fenris and side with the Templars because that is what a true friend would do?

[Deliciously-Demonic]

I've always thought Fenris was a little...not right in the head. I can understand a phobia of mages, or a justified hatred, but...really, Fen, who gives *that* much approval to sending poor magelings to their eventual doom? It's nearly as bad as Anders' fanaticalism or however the hell that's spelled. (Geez, BW, can ya give us a *normal* male LI next time? Whatever, so long as you keep pushing those lovely Fenrises/Valens/Alistairs my way, lol)
Since they don't exactly show us what happened in between the sex&making up besides whatever quests you do in between, I've always gotten the feeling that Fenris both avoids, and stalks Hawke. Not on purpose, of course, but...I can't find the rights words to explain it. x_x Damn I'm tired.

All of my characters have been Freedom-Fighting mages, therefor rivaled Fenris. So it made sense to me when he either turned or stayed when siding with the mages. My one mage-hating Hawke (Alejandro), I couldn't even do fully (he loves Bethany and was traumatized when she was taken to the Circle) so I made him a total bloody hypocrite (which Anders sorta called him on.) But when he sided with the mages to save Bethany (and thanks to my inability to side Templar), I felt...disappointed when Fenris stayed. Alejandro just sold out everything he believed in...and for what? A group of Blood Mages? I think it would have made more sense for Fenris to lose faith n him for that, and turn against him.

[Annarl]

Arquen wrote...

I'll quote myself from the other "who hated Fenris" thread. I spent waaaayyy to much energy and time on there writing volumes of Fenris debate, LOL.

"People stereotype Fenris based on looks, past characters, and personal bias. It is so blinding that they completely miss out on the depth of the character. "

I love Final Fantasy, but I never actually saw Fenris as anything Final Fantasy-esque. Perhaps if I had stalked the boards pre-game and only had a picture and a voice I might have fallen into that trap of "Oh look another wounded hero, badass pretty boy type." Yet when I go into a game I try to go in without assumptions. This allowed me to appreciate Fenris for who he was in game, the character Gaider designed, and not allow personal experience and bias from previous "cliche" characters in the way.

Anders is another who fell into this trap. Having known him from Awakenings a lot of people were like "omg he is romanceable, awesome I loved him in Awakenings!" and then were disappointed or shocked by his new "developments" in DA2. They had set certain standards and bias' in their heads of how he was going to be, and either were pleasantly surprised or disappointed or both.

It's funny I've been playing Final Fantasy well since I started playing games (FF7 and FF8 are still my favs) but I never saw Fenris as a Final Fantasy-esque character.  Fenris is no boy.  And has powerful motivations for the way he is, whether or not your PC agrees or disagrees with him  He isn't broody for the sake of being broody.  He is not an anti-hero like Squall.  But maybe because I too didn't go in with any preconceive notion of who he was.  In truth I saw him as not Final Fantasy-esque (well except for the hair) before hand.  I was able to appreciate his character both good and bad.

Now Anders, well... I'll leave him alone.

[Annarl]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

I think Alistair is someone I probably could dump very easily. I might feel terrible for a while for leading him on, but I've never found Alistair irresistable. More like, sort of sexy and perfectly acceptable when hardened. Zevran, on the other hand, was irresistable to me. I always made sure to have my way with him first, and then move on to Alistair if playing a female HN. I never actually managed to get them both through the political marriage thing. :/ If I *could* do that, I would. If I'm saving Ferelden, I want to keep it.

This is really interesting because I felt the exact same way but for the opposite people. I can dump Zevran without a second thought. It's like, "Meh you're like the village bicycle, so I have no qualms lovin' and leavin' ya.". But with Alistair I feel he is legitmately marriage material, heh. So, I always do what you do too, but in reverse. Romance Zevran, then move on to Alistair and dump Zev once I get confronted. Admittedly, I also make sure Alistair is hardened.

It always interesting to me how different people view the same characters.  I like both Alistair and Zeveran, for very different reasons.  But I guess being older I felt that Alistair was a little too high school romance for me.  While Zervan seems to really grow in the romance with the Warden.  He wants to love and be loved by the end of the game.  He has the courage go for what he wants.  While Alistair has to be pushed and if not hardened will reject his love.  While I think overall the LI in DA2 are a little shallow when compared to DA:O, Fenris has the kiss scene at the end of the game and seems to be on his way to being a stronger person. (romanced or not)  His growth as a person is probably what appealed to me the most.

Modifié par omearaee, 25 juin 2011 - 04:01 .

[FenrisDeSolar]

Arquen wrote...

Hate is always a double edged sword. The counter to hate is to find something that you can respect and love. Fenris is not blinded by hate to me. He is angry, abused, vengeful, and does HATE magic and magisters with a passion. Fenris will never overcome this hate, but that does not mean that he will be willing to betray Hawke (if you have built his relationship that is.)

Fenris does not need to follow Hawke, he wants to follow Hawke because he respects and/or loves him/her. I used to think of theories about how Fenris pretty much traded one master for another, but I threw it out simply because he chooses to follow Hawke, and it is not an easy choice for him to make. He will betray you and go his own way or suffer death by Hawke because he makes his own choices to do so. Basically, he takes the situation and doesn't just blindingly follow, but begrudgingly follows because he wants to be there for Hawke good or ill. He makes this decision as a free man, and not a blind follower. It is a choice he thinks about, but decides there are more important things in this world than his personal hatred and vendetta against magisters. Moreso, I believe in time he can accept that he is fighting against a type of slavery and as such would join Hawke to make a better solution for the mages. Still maintaining always that mages should not be left uncontrolled.

There no doubt will always be the core belief that Fenris holds about all mages turning to whatever means necessary for advancement and survival. That isn't so far fetched, and I don't think Fenris will ever go back on this. It is because of that I don't see him as a slave following Hawke blindly "just cuz" in the end, but someone who wants to be there for the only friend/love he has ever had. It is a true sign of tolerance and temperance on his part. He is willing to accept Hawke as a counterbalance to his personal feelings because his/her opinion matters so much to Fenris. This is what a true friend and comrade in arms would do. Stand with you no matter what because of the relationship you have built and not because of personal bias.

There's a lot of sense in that, with one flaw. Not everyone is his friend. Some are Rivals. Some are rivals and lovers. If you choose a rival path with him, you can't miss one single little thing for him, or he will walk away from you, and would likely fight you to the death if you side with the mages.

I did all his quests, save one, which was his final Questioning Beliefs. My Hawke had given Fenris both his gifts, flirted with him, taken him to kill both Hadriana and Danarius... And without fail, his back was always turned to me in the Gallows. 

I mean, yeah, I could go back and fix that, and see pretty much all of what you just said, but basically the difference lies in five minutes of time invested in him. Or in my case, where the final quest never triggered, I probably chose one too few "I love magic"-options, and that was my bane.

But my Hawke did all other things right. So Fenris walks away, because... what? I didn't stroke his hair one last time? I think he walks away because that makes the most sense for him when Hawke chooses the mages, regardless of the situation. Even as a friend, I always get the feeling that he feels compelled to stay with Hawke more than anything. Even if it's something he's not aware of, I don't think it's any virtue of his own that makes him stay. I'd put it down to a conflict of instincts that results in "do nothing. Wait. Look for an opportunity." Or perhaps he's just an addictive/obsessive personality, and that's how he holds onto his hate for so long.
Either way, I'm not cementing him into anything, since he'll basically always be what he is in game, and then that little bit more that only his creator knows. Not to mention the kinks and quirks infinite fangirls will glue onto him.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Deliciously-Demonic wrote...

I've always thought Fenris was a little...not right in the head. I can understand a phobia of mages, or a justified hatred, but...really, Fen, who gives *that* much approval to sending poor magelings to their eventual doom? It's nearly as bad as Anders' fanaticalism or however the hell that's spelled. (Geez, BW, can ya give us a *normal* male LI next time? Whatever, so long as you keep pushing those lovely Fenrises/Valens/Alistairs my way, lol)
Since they don't exactly show us what happened in between the sex&making up besides whatever quests you do in between, I've always gotten the feeling that Fenris both avoids, and stalks Hawke. Not on purpose, of course, but...I can't find the rights words to explain it. x_x Damn I'm tired.

This is why I assume he is obsessed about Hawke more than anything. I think, no matter how you look at it, it's an infatuation on his part, and that is why he'll stay for so long, even when you time and time again help mages. But when a... a...? Let's call it non-developed! When a non-developed Fenris is asked to join Hawke in protecting the mages in the Gallows, that's a "hey, here's a kick in the teeth, why don't you wake up bite back"-moment. And that's something he'll take. I'm guessing Fenris thinks things will eventually come to mould around him. He's been solitary for most of his life, when not serving someone else's whims. I think his life always has, and always will, revolve around him first and foremostly.

Lest you offer him something else to focus on, he will always hate mages, and be unwilling to protect them. Which I like. 

[Dr. Doctor]

The thing with Fenris is that while he does hold a great deal of animosity towards mages he never says that he or anyone else is immune to temptation. Regular people can be tempted to gain power or influence over others, but when a mage falls to temptation, everything goes pants-on-head crazy.

What makes me curious is what happens if you take Fenris into the Fade in Night Terrors. The pride demon makes him the offer to give him the power to face Danarius "as his equal" we never find out exactly what this means but it could be possible that somewhere in Fenris' mind is a part of him that wishes he could use magic against his tormentors. It could be that he despises those who use magic for their own benefit while people like him have to work to get the same result. His hatred of Hadrianna is defined by how she tormented him and used her position as a magister's apprentice to avoid retribution from Fenris, not simply the fact that she was a mage.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not exactly a kid, and that actually made me appreciate Alistair's romance more. As Stephen Merritt wrote:
"You make me feel like I was seventeen again
You make everything beautiful seem true."
Alistair is too damn good for this bad old world, which is why I don't harden him unless I need him on the throne. That kind of innocence and sincerity, but without the outright moronic brashness and overconfidence of youth, is something interesting. Most of the time that kind of sweetness is overwhelmed by a heavy dose of bull-headed-stupid, but Ali at least is smart enough to realize he knows nothing. Half of my affection for him is how he insists he isn't a leader and shouldn't lead.

I like Zevran too. He's more of the lover you don't have to worry about. Alistair, I want to protect from the damaging influences of the world, while Zevran can take care of himself. He wants you, he might need you to make him truly happy, but if you don't go after him he'll be jovial enough in his own life.

I like Fenris because he knows who and what he is, and he sticks to that. He's not "too good," like Alistair, but he's also not completely, independently self-sufficient like Zevran. Fenris is always either a lone wolf or a follower, but I think he realizes what each path brings for him. When he is by himself, he is nothing but survival... he doesn't make friends or enjoy himself, he lives on grit and instinct. When he's following someone, he can trust them to take care of the big things and start relaxing: drinking with Donnic, playing cards with Varric, hooking up with Isabella. He stays with Hawke because Hawke offers something valuable, no matter the path. Fenris needs a structure to support him if he wants to relax enough to be a person, and Hawke offers that structure.

Which makes me realize how much some of my fondness for Bioware boys is that they tend to be perfectly fine with being your subordinate, and accept your PC as their protector. I have kind of an Utena complex, I will admit.

[DreamerM]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Fenris' willingness to follow Hawke makes me queasy. It just feels like he's got a neon sign reading "SLAVE" above him when he'll cave to my Hawke wanting him to go against everything he's believed him for ten or more years. When he stands against Hawke, that's the first moment I thought, "Wow, Fenris, you *are* free."

I've thought about this too. And I remember something that Zevran actually said in DA:O, when told there are fates worse then death and asked why he would escape the Crows only to swear an oath to the Warden. Zevran replies that the Warden spared his life, and the other person (Morrigan I think) comments that there are fates worse then death.

Zevran's response was "Yes, and one of them is to be unable to choose your masters."

I think this might resonate with my understanding of Fenris. He chooses Hawke. When you meet him in Bait and Switch, he could have just walked out, said thanks, paid you and sent you on your way, but for some reason (I think he smelled Player Character) this lone-wolf decided it might be good to have someone to watch his back for once, and based on very little, he trusts the job to you. You don't let him down, and you win his trust.

He doesn't ever "serve" you, no more then any of your other party members do. You can't go through life attached to nobody. That'd be very lonely.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The thing with Fenris is that while he does hold a great deal of animosity towards mages he never says that he or anyone else is immune to temptation. Regular people can be tempted to gain power or influence over others, but when a mage falls to temptation, everything goes pants-on-head crazy.

What makes me curious is what happens if you take Fenris into the Fade in Night Terrors. The pride demon makes him the offer to give him the power to face Danarius "as his equal" we never find out exactly what this means but it could be possible that somewhere in Fenris' mind is a part of him that wishes he could use magic against his tormentors. It could be that he despises those who use magic for their own benefit while people like him have to work to get the same result. His hatred of Hadrianna is defined by how she tormented him and used her position as a magister's apprentice to avoid retribution from Fenris, not simply the fact that she was a mage.

Honestly, I think he fought for his markings because he also desired power once. 

I was definitely suspicious of it during the Fade sequence, as well as his meeting with Varania.

[FenrisDeSolar]

DreamerM wrote...

I've thought about this too. And I remember something that Zevran actually said in DA:O, when told there are fates worse then death and asked why he would escape the Crows only to swear an oath to the Warden. Zevran replies that the Warden spared his life, and the other person (Morrigan I think) comments that there are fates worse then death.

Zevran's response was "Yes, and one of them is to be unable to choose your masters."

I think this might resonate with my understanding of Fenris. He chooses Hawke. When you meet him in Bait and Switch, he could have just walked out, said thanks, paid you and sent you on your way, but for some reason (I think he smelled Player Character) this lone-wolf decided it might be good to have someone to watch his back for once, and based on very little, he trusts the job to you. You don't let him down, and you win his trust.

He doesn't ever "serve" you, no more then any of your other party members do. You can't go through life attached to nobody. That'd be very lonely.

Zevran swore his life to the Warden so as to not lose it to the Crows. Or that's how I understood it.

As for Fenris choosing Hawke... I like that. Nicely put. Makes sense.

[DreamerM]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Zevran swore his life to the Warden so as to not lose it to the Crows. Or that's how I understood it.

He still made a deliberate choice to exchange one master for another. He doesn't even ask the Warden to let him go, because freedom isn't what he wants right now. Later, yes, but not right now.

FenrisDeSolar wrote...
As for Fenris choosing Hawke... I like that. Nicely put. Makes sense.

Thanx. That is the important distinction, as far as I'm concerned. I was worried too that Fenris's old slave habits would die hard, but I do think that since his loyalty to Hawke is his own choice, we don't have to worry that Hawke is a substitute for Denarius.

[FenrisDeSolar]

DreamerM wrote...

Thanx. That is the important distinction, as far as I'm concerned. I was worried too that Fenris's old slave habits would die hard, but I do think that since his loyalty to Hawke is his own choice, we don't have to worry that Hawke is a substitute for Denarius.

I never felt as if his loyalty was under scrutiny. Just his motive for handing it over so freely. So basically, I don't think this is some sort of extended Stockholm Syndrome -- that Fenris is looking for a captor -- but I think he'll always be more comfortable living for himself for someone else in one way or another. If that makes any sense whatsoever, and if it doesn't I'll just stfu now.

[FenrisDeSolar]

I said I would stfu. I lied, again. It's not a habit, I swear. >_O

I just updated 'Until We Bleed' again, is all... <--- leads to ff.net

You can read it on deviantArt here...

Modifié par FenrisDeSolar, 26 juin 2011 - 12:09 .

[DreamerM]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...
I think he'll always be more comfortable living for himself for someone else in one way or another. If that makes any sense whatsoever, and if it doesn't I'll just stfu now.

I think he already is living for himself. Hawke doesn't tell him where to go, what to do, what to wear and how to live his life, although Hawke is one of the things he considers when he works through these things. Considering that for years at a time, his one loyalty was to Denarius, and his duty was to indulge his whims great and small, that Fenris has developed so much independance and agency in a relatively little amount of time is a testiment to either how strong of a personality he really is or how fed up he really got with being enslaved.

[Deliciously-Demonic]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

I said I would stfu. I lied, again. It's not a habit, I swear. >_O

I just updated 'Until We Bleed' again, is all... <--- leads to ff.net

You can read it on deviantArt here...

-The rabid fangirl runs off to read-
Reminds me, I need to write me a DA2 fanfic.

Part of me wonders if Fenris actually lied about his memories returning when he...y'know...with Hawke. Considering how spur-of-the-moment it actually was, maybe when everything was all said and done, he freaked out, maybe thinking he was just trading one master for another, or something akin to that. Mostly that face he makes when he leaves.
To quote one of my favorite YouTube comments, "Only Fenris could pull the ultimate booty-call, and walk away looking like *he's* the one that just got used."
Maybe he thinks he was used by Hawke. Maybe he thinks he should be angry, but his feelings for Hawke get in the way of that and confuse him. I dunno. Food for thought.

[Arquen]

OMG so much to reply to! 

I think this might resonate with my understanding of Fenris. He chooses Hawke. When you meet him in Bait and Switch, he could have just walked out, said thanks, paid you and sent you on your way, but for some reason (I think he smelled Player Character) this lone-wolf decided it might be good to have someone to watch his back for once, and based on very little, he trusts the job to you. You don't let him down, and you win his trust. 

He doesn't ever "serve" you, no more then any of your other party members do. You can't go through life attached to nobody. That'd be very lonely. 

I completely agree with this. Fenris has "hired" people before, but "never anyone of substance." He finally found someone who was willing to help him in exchange for help back. As I've said before, Hawke is offered a living weapon's help and loyalty in exchange for taking out some slavers and a crazy mage or two? That is one hell of a deal. Yet, Fenris did "[choose] to stay with Hawke, because [he] thought you could help him, and you did!" It was his independent choice from the beginning, and it has always been his choice to stay in Kirkwall when he could very well have left after the Deep Roads and even Hadrianna.

On the rivaly path I believe it is a mutual respect thing. The conversation in Act 3 is very telling. Hawke says "we aren't exactly friends, Fenris," and he replies "yet I respect you." It is because of this respect that he will side with Hawke and the mages. Yet it is still his choice, and an even harder one if on the rival path I think. As stated everything has to be perfect and he has to be 100% rival because that is the only way he will have enough respect and faith in Hawke to follow him/her and see it through. On the rivalry I want to say he follows because he wants to be there when it all falls apart, and he still wants to be there for Hawke because it is something he/she needs. On the rival path I see Fenris and Hawke as counterbalances to eachother, they respect eachother even if they do not agree on anything. They desperately want each other to "open their eyes," and see it from the others point of view, but both are so stubborn that they won't. So they argue and disagree, but they don't hate eachother, and they provide levity and grounding for eachother. Fenris grows as a person on either side, but on both sides he has utmost respect for Hawke, and Hawke shows him that there are more important things in the world than his personal feelings and hate.

He also states that "making decisions for himself was never his strong suit," and Hawke pushes him to admit that "everything he has done, he has done to himself." This is him admitting that he has made personal choices that have led him to where he is today. Hawke also pushes him to admit that his hatred is poisoning his personal growth. Something he reluctantly admits, but seems more inclined to work on than before.

As far as "right in the head," lol, I don't think that is quite the phrasing I would use but no, Fenris has some deep seated hate and anger issues. Fenris is anything but normal. It isn't that he wants to see magelings go to their deaths, and revels in killing mages just because, but he "will not allow what happens in Tevinter to happen here." His real anger is towards slavers and the people who hurt him, not all mages in general. He supports the Templar side not because he loves the Templars or the Circle, but because he feels it is the only way to keep the lid on the situation. He even states if you side with the Templars that he has seen it before, mages turning to whatever means necessary to preserve themselves. "It is not pretty." Yet he doesn't sound gleeful about it, happy to go on a slaughtering rampage or anything. It is just him making the "hard choice" to do some evil now for a greater good later. 

Modifié par Arquen, 26 juin 2011 - 04:16 .

[DreamerM]

Arquen wrote...
 Fenris is anything but normal. It isn't that he wants to see magelings go to their deaths, and revels in killing mages just because, but he "will not allow what happens in Tevinter to happen here." His real anger is towards slavers and the people who hurt him, not all mages in general.

I wish, I wish, I wish there was some way to point that out to him. He doesn't hate mages, he hates magisters. I wish you could point out that given the legal and social system in place in Tevinter, these people would STILL be causing suffering even if they weren't magical. If there's one thing people don't need any help with, it's finding new and more colorful ways to make each-other miserable.

Sigh....