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[Dr. Doctor]

What I wish Hawke could do:

The Hanged Man, lunchtime

Anders: (taking a bite of sandwich) So Hawke, you don't really talk about the mage's plight very much.

Fenris: Please if you're kind were free you would turn into Magisters.

Anders: Not all mages are like that.

Fenris: Says the abomination.

Anders: How dare you insult-

Hawke: (stands up and slams hands on the table) Enough! (points at Anders) You are worse than a sodding Chanter! I get that you're trying to be a flaming revolutionary! I don't need to be reminded about it every Maker-forsaken minute of the sodding day!

Anders: But-

Hawke: I'm not finished! (points at Fenris) You! I get that the Magisters are evil, ruthless, cagey blood mage blighters! I get that you don't like mages or magic because of your markings! But I don't need to hear it when I'm just trying to eat a sodding sandwich in the sodding tavern! I swear that if I hear one more thing about mages and templars from either of you I will kill someone!

Fenris: Can you the mustard?

Hawke: Argh! (blows a hole in the wall with her staff and storms off)

[Arquen]

I wish, I wish, I wish there was some way to point that out to him. He doesn't hate mages, he hates magisters. I wish you could point out that given the legal and social system in place in Tevinter, these people would STILL be causing suffering even if they weren't magical. If there's one thing people don't need any help with, it's finding new and more colorful ways to make each-other miserable.

I think Fenris understands the differentiation of mages vs magisters. He even explains that magisters collar their own, and any mage in Tevinter who does not use blood magic or abuses the system is not much more than a slave. Your either an apprentice to a magister, or a servant to a magister. I think he would even admit that he doesn't hate all mages. "I don't doubt some are true and noble men.." The problem lies in that Fenris ultimately and unwaveringly believes any mage who becomes free or is left without some kind of teaching and control will turn into a magister or more clearly a mage who abuses all kinds of power and subjugates others for personal gain. More than that they attract demons and become abominations. Unrestricted mages are easy prey to temptation, blood magic, and abuses of their powers. Fenris even offers that not all mages do fall prey to it, but that for every strong mage who doesn't there are a dozen weak ones who do. Unfortunately, it only takes one weak mage to cause utter and complete disaster. Imagine a group of mages and we have the Circle in Ferelden disaster and the Tevinter Imperium Golden City/ Black City started the freakin' blights disaster. This is just to point out that Fenris does not hate mages for being mages, but for the potential in every mage to fall prey to such things.

I agree it is muddled in his dialogues and scenes. Often exchanging "mages" and "magisters" is confusing as to whether or not he harbors hate for one or the other or both. Yet whenever he acts out of anger and hate it is always toward slavers, blood mages, or the magisters that have hurt him.  When it comes to mages, he only offers that it is dangerous and perhaps unwise to let them be free. Fenris says a few times how he hopes Hawke will not regret helping mages one day. I don't think this is out of hate for mages in themselves, but again because of what free mages are capable of. This is especially apparent after Feynriel. He states that he hopes Feynriel won't live to regret the kindness Hawke has offered him.

I also always found this interesting "The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium as a group, maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using Blood Magic. Though blood magic is now banned in the Imperium, some mages are quietly acknowledged as the most proficient dream-walkers and diviners." So to me when Hadrianna was "houding his sleep..." can bring a whole new meaning to that.

As far as Fenris in the Fade I think Keeper Marethari says it best. Demons will find whatever deep seated nugget of desire, emotion, weakness a person has inside them and exploit it to the utmost degree. They can literally pull things out of people that people don't know exist. I believe this is what happens to Fenris. He comes out of the gate all stand offish and "cast your eyes elsewhere!" Yet a sudden image flashes in his head of actually having enough power to stand on equal footing with any magister. That offer traps him because he is at the core so very tired of running, so very angry at being a slave, and would in his fury take vengeance on all magisters. In that moment the demon pulls out a chance not only to take revenge on his master, but having never to fear any magister or mage or even being hurt ever again. Preying on a fear he buried, but the demon found. Yet all he said was.. "what.. would I have to do.." and BAM! trapped.

I love taking Fenris to the fade because I think it makes him appreciate something about mages he never knew, but it also reinforces how difficult it must be for mages to resist these temptations. Hawke "performed a miracle" with Feynriel, and most do not come out of the fade intact. Fenris appologizes for being weak, and the experience humbles him somewhat. He "hopes we never come across something like that again." I never saw anything of selfish desire in the fade sequence, but more exploitation of buried emotion.

[Friera]

Arquen wrote...



I love taking Fenris to the fade because I think it makes him appreciate something about mages he never knew, but it also reinforces how difficult it must be for mages to resist these temptations. Hawke "performed a miracle" with Feynriel, and most do not come out of the fade intact. Fenris appologizes for being weak, and the experience humbles him somewhat. He "hopes we never come across something like that again." I never saw anything of selfish desire in the fade sequence, but more exploitation of buried emotion.

But when I romanced Fenris (rival) and did the Fenris Apology after the fade Fenris just went completely nuts on my Hawke telling him that everything was he´s fault! I think thats a weakness that the blames others for his own faults. He was weak giving up his friends for power. Also says much about his so-called love for Hawke.

Regardless, I love Fenris <3

[Annarl]

Totally off topic (no Fenris just a peek at Anders) but who has seen this video. It's Dragon Age Dance Party. It made me burst out laughing. What modders can do is...amazing.

Modifié par omearaee, 26 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[Friera]

omearaee wrote...

Totally off topic (no Fenris just a peek at Anders) but who has seen this video. It's Dragon Age Dance Party. It made me burst out laughing. What modders can do is...amazing.

Its blocked...

[Annarl]

Here's the link


Just copy and paste into your browser.

Modifié par omearaee, 26 juin 2011 - 06:09 .

[Deliciously-Demonic]

Ooh...dat ass. >8d
...what? Sorry, sorry! I'm just a fan-girl!

I remember when all we had of Fenris was the Hip Wiggle/Table Slam and we were speculating all over the place. My favorite was Hawke getting captured and Fenris being upset because they weren't just storming the gates, but Aveline was trying to be reasonable about it (she *is* the Captian of the city guard, after all.) Pity it was only about Varania.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes
Fenris: How is he?
Anders: Not well. Nothing we try works.
Merill: We suspect blood magic.
Isabela: -sighs- Why does it always lead back to blood magic?
Anders: It just makes all mages look worse when it's used. -snort- Not like Alejandro'd care.
Merill: Anders! Don't speak ill of the dead!
Fenris: Dead? What do you mean, dead?!
Merill: Did I say dead? I meant dying! Er, I mean, I meant...sick!
Varric: Daisy, don't beat around the bush.
Anders: Look, there's nothing we can do. The poison, whatever it is, is very potent.
Fenris: So you give up?!
Anders: There's nothing-
Fenris: -stands of and slams his fists on the table- No! I will *not* allow Alejandro to die!
Anders: Well...there is one option...
Fenris: Tell me. Now!
Anders: The Urn of Sacred Ashes. Andraste's ashes. They're said to cure any ailment. My old commander tracked it down. I'm sure Teyrna Amell will be more then willing to help.
Fenris: Then what are we standing around for?

[Meeszy Alexy]

Just thought I'd share this with you all. It made me smile, at least.

[Arquen]

Friera wrote...

But when I romanced Fenris (rival) and did the Fenris Apology after the fade Fenris just went completely nuts on my Hawke telling him that everything was he´s fault! I think thats a weakness that the blames others for his own faults. He was weak giving up his friends for power. Also says much about his so-called love for Hawke.

Regardless, I love Fenris <3

On the rival path he pretty much states the same thing except he is like "why did we go to the fade to begin with?" I know people get hung up on that line "...the more I think about it the more I believe you are also to blame." Key word being also. He doesn't completely blame Hawke, and he made a choice to stay by Hawke's side, but he thinks it was the wrong decision. Mostly because it put everyone in danger, including Hawke. I think he still learns something on the rivalry path, but it is less humbling, and he is less forgiving of Feynriel and Hawke. He states there were better options like "hunting down the boy's body and killing him" instead of entering the fade. Yet he also states that he hopes Hawke learns that " not every mage is worth saving," and this is on par with his friendship path in that he is warning Hawke about the danger of free mages and how he hopes Hawke doesn't live to regret showing such kindness to them. Saying, "I simply hope we don't all regret the day you learn how true that is." That being his belief that not all mages are worth saving. On the rivalry path Fenris is more focused on trying to get Hawke to open their eyes and stop being naive about mages. He sees Hawke as a complete mage sympathizer and attempts to warn Hawke over and over that being complacent and naive about mages leads to dangerous consequences.

To me the rivalries are kind of flawed like that in that no matter how you rival someone they assume you have complete opposite views from them. For example, when you rival Anders no matter how you do it or how your Hawke believes he always treats you like a Templar hugging, tranquil supporting, circle loving Hawke even though you may have just been "hey! blood magic rocks! Hey, lets kill these people because, well.. they suck!" and have no love for Templars or the Circle. Same with Fenris, he treats you like a mage loving, slavery supporting, free all mages idealist even if those aren't the methods you used to rival him.

As for personal weakness in blaming others, that is definitely something he does do moreso on the rivalry path. His whole scene in act 3 where he is cursing at Hawke and blaming Hawke for leading him into everything is a good example. Yet he also grows as a person and makes the realization that he is just blaming others for no reason. I think it is more telling about his love/respect for Hawke in that he decides to stick by Hawke even if he believes Hawke is wrong. That more than anything should be the judge of his character, and not his outbursts. He is quick to anger, but he also realizes that he has made choices for himself, and he cannot blame others for those choices. He even appologizes to Hawke stating "why am I angry at you..." He realizes that "everything I have done, I have done to myself," in the end and that is a huge step. He is quick to blame Hawke because it is easy to believe that Hawke leads him by the hand into situations he would not have been in otherwise, and I think it takes him a long time to figure out why he continues to follow Hawke because... Festis bei umo canavarum.

PS: that letter is freakin awesome! Varric, LOL... I would crack up seeing Fenris actually dictating that, and Varric getting all queasy writing it.

Varric: Are you serious? You want me to write what...?
Fenris: Just write it down Varric. I paid you well enough. No questions.
Varric: If you say so, elf, but I'm starting to think not all the coin in the world is worth this..

Modifié par Arquen, 27 juin 2011 - 12:43 .

[SurrealSadi]

As an aside to the topic, I went back to DA:O for a while.. Need a break from 2... and the Hungry Prisoner in Ostagar... sounds a great deal like DA2 Anders..... o.o

[stephen1493]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

What I wish Hawke could do:

The Hanged Man, lunchtime

Anders: (taking a bite of sandwich) So Hawke, you don't really talk about the mage's plight very much.

Fenris: Please if you're kind were free you would turn into Magisters.

Anders: Not all mages are like that.

Fenris: Says the abomination.

Anders: How dare you insult-

Hawke: (stands up and slams hands on the table) Enough! (points at Anders) You are worse than a sodding Chanter! I get that you're trying to be a flaming revolutionary! I don't need to be reminded about it every Maker-forsaken minute of the sodding day!

Anders: But-

Hawke: I'm not finished! (points at Fenris) You! I get that the Magisters are evil, ruthless, cagey blood mage blighters! I get that you don't like mages or magic because of your markings! But I don't need to hear it when I'm just trying to eat a sodding sandwich in the sodding tavern! I swear that if I hear one more thing about mages and templars from either of you I will kill someone!

Fenris: Can you the mustard?

Hawke: Argh! (blows a hole in the wall with her staff and storms off)

Anders: Whats the problem with Mustard?

Fenris: Women.

[MelpomeneTears]

I've been wondering about this for a while now and would love it if someone knew the answer. In act 1 when you meet Fenris he kneels over the man he just killed and then stands to say that Danarius is in Kirkwall and in a mansion in Hightown, and he knows where it is. Yet in act 2 he tell you he can't read. So what was it that gave him all of that information in act one with no words?

[stephen1493]

MelpomeneTears wrote...

I've been wondering about this for a while now and would love it if someone knew the answer. In act 1 when you meet Fenris he kneels over the man he just killed and then stands to say that Danarius is in Kirkwall and in a mansion in Hightown, and he knows where it is. Yet in act 2 he tell you he can't read. So what was it that gave him all of that information in act one with no words?

My guess is that he combined prior knowledge with the immediate happenings. That he had previously suspected the mansion would be Mr. D's safehouse and the immeadiate occasion confirmed it.  Was it a note he found on the body that aroused suspicion of the mansion? 

[MelpomeneTears]

Stephen1493
I'm not sure he bends over the body and seems to be going through his clothes then says. "It is as I suspected, my former master accompanied them to the city" he asks you to help then says "The magister is staying at a mansion in hightown, Meet me there."

[Deliciously-Demonic]

A map?
Or maybe he can read bits of Arcanum (assuming it has a written language) but nothing of Common. Or he just recognizes Danarius' handwriting, despite not being able to read it, and he just assumed. Both would explain his assumptions being incorrect.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, just why does a wealthy, powerful, magister of the Tevinter Imperium, own an estate in Kirkwall of all places, a city know for absurdly strict Circle and abundance of templars? Powerful as Danarius is, the templars are like The Cowled Wizards from BG2; there is always, always more of them. And eventually he'll run out of mana and rely only on blood magic. That'd make him easy pickings for a quick enough blade.

Off-topic, I just remembered, my cousin Darius, who hates Fenris because of his whole anti-mage attitude, insists that I call Danarius. -snicker-

Modifié par Deliciously-Demonic, 27 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[stephen1493]

MelpomeneTears wrote...

Stephen1493
I'm not sure he bends over the body and seems to be going through his clothes then says. "It is as I suspected, my former master accompanied them to the city" he asks you to help then says "The magister is staying at a mansion in hightown, Meet me there."

Theory 1: It was a note with the address on it. Fenris, not knowing how to read, realized that the mansion's address would be something he HAD to memorize. Thus, he used extreme concentration to memorize all the wierd shapes that the address would look like to him, just in case the same address would turn up later. (most impressive)

Theory 2: He saw something that was only native to the neighborhood of mansion in the man's pocket. ( Impressive)

Theory 3: He got a good look at the guy and realized he'd seen him go in and out of the mansion before. ( most plausible)

Theory 4: He smelled him and he smelled alot like the mansion + Danerius. (The one i wish was true )

Modifié par stephen1493, 27 juin 2011 - 04:36 .

[MelpomeneTears]

Deliciously Demonic, I think the mansion belonged to a merchant and Danarius was renting it, but to answer the question try reading the enigma of Kirkwall stuff, it makes for some interesting thoughts.

[MelpomeneTears]

Stephen1493 thanks for the theories, the third one does make sense if he was watching for slave hunters just in case, I like that.

[stephen1493]

MelpomeneTears wrote...

Stephen1493 thanks for the theories, the third one does make sense if he was watching for slave hunters just in case, I like that.

Anytime

[Arquen]

I think the best theory lies in that he puts together pieces of information that he has gathered. He was obviously suspecting a trap and that's why he recruited Hawke in the first place.

When he says "it's as I thought, my former master accompanied them to the city." I think he already knows the location of the mansion and puts it together that Danarius must be there. The mansion does not belong to Danarius and although Tevinter citizens aren't exactly welcome outside Tevinter I don't think any Templars would really mess with one. Danarius is probably free to come and go as he pleases, as is evident by his appearance in the Hanged Man. The mansion in itself is also a decoy which makes me believe that it was part of the information leaked to Fenris to lure him into a further trap.

Yet when his first trap with the box thing failed Danarius more than likely just fled and abandoned the mansion. Fenris finds out later that it was never Danarius' mansion in the first place and whether or not Danarius rented it, bought it, or just killed the guy and took it is unknown to Fenris.

As for what exactly he finds on the body is anybody's guess. I would say a map that he could see the mansion marked on, a medallion or token that identifies a Tevinter magister, coin or something similar that traces back to Danarius. Either way I think Fenris has been following the leads for a while, and it just so happens he finds something on the corpse to confirm his suspicions. With the trap sprung and failed Danarius will flee, and so he has to check out the mansion (his only lead) before "he has a chance to flee."

[ReiSilver]

Arquen wrote...

On the rival path he pretty much states the same thing except he is like "why did we go to the fade to begin with?" I know people get hung up on that line "...the more I think about it the more I believe you are also to blame." Key word being also. He doesn't completely blame Hawke, and he made a choice to stay by Hawke's side, but he thinks it was the wrong decision. Mostly because it put everyone in danger, including Hawke. I think he still learns something on the rivalry path, but it is less humbling, and he is less forgiving of Feynriel and Hawke. He states there were better options like "hunting down the boy's body and killing him" instead of entering the fade. Yet he also states that he hopes Hawke learns that " not every mage is worth saving," and this is on par with his friendship path in that he is warning Hawke about the danger of free mages and how he hopes Hawke doesn't live to regret showing such kindness to them. Saying, "I simply hope we don't all regret the day you learn how true that is." That being his belief that not all mages are worth saving. On the rivalry path Fenris is more focused on trying to get Hawke to open their eyes and stop being naive about mages. He sees Hawke as a complete mage sympathizer and attempts to warn Hawke over and over that being complacent and naive about mages leads to dangerous consequences.

To me the rivalries are kind of flawed like that in that no matter how you rival someone they assume you have complete opposite views from them. For example, when you rival Anders no matter how you do it or how your Hawke believes he always treats you like a Templar hugging, tranquil supporting, circle loving Hawke even though you may have just been "hey! blood magic rocks! Hey, lets kill these people because, well.. they suck!" and have no love for Templars or the Circle. Same with Fenris, he treats you like a mage loving, slavery supporting, free all mages idealist even if those aren't the methods you used to rival him.

*snip*

I just wanted to say that one of the reasons I love the rivalry romance with Fenris so much is that it gives you the oppourtunity to play an idealist/cynic romance. I love the interplay of such a relationship in media, the way Fenris' rivalmance can play out reminds me a bit of Vash and Wolfwood from Trigun in the way Fenris seems almost protective when he admonishes Hawke for risking himself and others to save Feynriel and the "I simply hope we don't all regret the day you learn how true that is." line, especially talking to mage-Hawke, since by that point the admission that "Not all mages are as strong as you" seems to imply he's gotten to the point where he accepts Mage-Hawke

[tankgirly]

@D-D, this thread sudden is more than alive again since your return. Arh....such a nice feeling.

[stephen1493]

tankgirly wrote...

@D-D, this thread sudden is more than alive again since your return. Arh....such a nice feeling.

I feel so ignored... 

Modifié par stephen1493, 27 juin 2011 - 07:30 .

[DreamerM]

Deliciously-Demonic wrote...

just why does a wealthy, powerful, magister of the Tevinter Imperium, own an estate in Kirkwall of all places, a city know for absurdly strict Circle and abundance of templars? Powerful as Danarius is, the templars are like The Cowled Wizards from BG2; there is always, always more of them. And eventually he'll run out of mana and rely only on blood magic. That'd make him easy pickings for a quick enough blade.

Well Denarius isn't just a mage, he's also a wealthy and powerful nobleman. The Chantry doesn't need more problems with the Black Divine then it already has. I imagine the Magister's status as nightmare fuel/political hot potatoes protects them from Templar who might be otherwise inclined to point and yell APOSTATE! Even if it wouldn't technically be true, since Magisters do come from their own Circles, they just rule over those Circles, AND their Templars, like the feudal-lords-throwing-fireballs that they are.

As for the house, is it weird that I always just imagined Denarius owned a timeshare? Or he's so effin' rich that he's like one of those celebrities who owns a house in every city he ever visits, just because he can.

[stephen1493]

DreamerM wrote...

Deliciously-Demonic wrote...

just why does a wealthy, powerful, magister of the Tevinter Imperium, own an estate in Kirkwall of all places, a city know for absurdly strict Circle and abundance of templars? Powerful as Danarius is, the templars are like The Cowled Wizards from BG2; there is always, always more of them. And eventually he'll run out of mana and rely only on blood magic. That'd make him easy pickings for a quick enough blade.

Well Denarius isn't just a mage, he's also a wealthy and powerful nobleman. The Chantry doesn't need more problems with the Black Divine then it already has. I imagine the Magister's status as nightmare fuel/political hot potatoes protects them from Templar who might be otherwise inclined to point and yell APOSTATE! Even if it wouldn't technically be true, since Magisters do come from their own Circles, they just rule over those Circles, AND their Templars, like the feudal-lords-throwing-fireballs that they are.

As for the house, is it weird that I always just imagined Denarius owned a timeshare? Or he's so effin' rich that he's like one of those celebrities who owns a house in every city he ever visits, just because he can.

Lets not forget that Denarius is also citizen of Tevinter.  A flat out attack on him would cause an international incident, and Meredith would have known that too. As for why he would own a mansion there, where else would be a better place to meet fellow powerful blood mages (or potential one's) than the city with the most oppresive templars?