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[phyreblade74]

ipgd wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

No, I don't get it.  

Had he truly wanted to impress upon people the plight of the mages, why not blow them up?  Show the world how easily destroyed they are, how confining them leaves them vulnerable in the worst way to attack, that not even the Chantry can keep them safe.  By destroying the Chantry, rather, he gives credence to the idea mages are dangerous and need to be destroyed and/or controlled.  Now the Divine can go on to say, to all of Thedas, "See, see what happens when Templars are not allowed greater authority?  See what they can do to us?!"

Symbolically, his decision sucks.

That wouldn't have really accomplished the same thing. By blowing up the Chantry, he was attacking the institution that is largely responsible for the cultural attitudes towards mages.

Drumming up sympathy for the mages wasn't the point. He wanted to set the Chantry so against the mages that anyone born with magical skill would have absolutely no choice but to band together and fight for their lives, or be killed. He was striking against the idea of compromise, and removing the chance of compromise for everyone -- including the mages, whom will have no recourse or opportunity to surrender peacefully and will therefor be forced to fight for their freedom. That was part of it.

Polarization.

Nope, still don't get it.  Sorry.  My head just doesnt work that way.  Which might be a good thing, I don't know.  I suppose if you hear someone accuse me someday of making some sort of terrorist attack you can honestly say, "I never would've thought she'd be someone who'd do such a thing, wow."

Edited to add cool screenie, cause I'm on top again:

Modifié par phyreblade74, 28 juin 2011 - 09:14 .

[kromify]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Did it?  What ends up happening in Thedas as a result of Anders' action is left pretty much up in the air at the end of my game.  Did you get a different ending?  Wild.

it achieved what anders wanted; a fighting chance.  whether or not that chance goes the way he wanted is quite probably for da3

[ipgd]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Nope, still don't get it.

What don't you understand?

[kromify]

ipgd wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Nope, still don't get it.

What don't you understand?

i think attacking other targets for a desired outcome. because sticking with the obvious targets is on the face of it more sensible

@ Queen-of-Stuff. mine was killed when we did wwll. followed by wwll. and to spice things up; hitler.

Modifié par kromify, 28 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[phyreblade74]

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Did it?  What ends up happening in Thedas as a result of Anders' action is left pretty much up in the air at the end of my game.  Did you get a different ending?  Wild.

it achieved what anders wanted; a fighting chance.  whether or not that chance goes the way he wanted is quite probably for da3

Ahhh, "cutting off your nose to spite your face" logic.

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...
No -- I'm just saying that terrorism is heavily spun and demonized in the eyes of the public. In revolutions that fail or are ideologically opposed to a culture, those actions and methods are highlighted and pushed to the forefront; in movements that are successful, and in line with our culturally accepted morals, the terrorism is swept under the rug and we are left to believe that it is a tactic only used by evil men for evil causes.

I'm saying that people might have a different perspective on terrorism if they had a more objective view of its use in history vs. its modern media depictions.

Okay... but the mushy rhetoric works both ways.  People will use the language of modern civil rights to justify a mage revolution, while at the same time arguing that siding with templars is murder.

*looks around*  Oh, is this the Fenris thread?  lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And thus like all other institutions and social arrangements, it will inevitably start collapsing in and of itself and pave the way for something else.

How beautifully flawed human history is. Brings a tear to the eye.

Keep talking like this, KoP, and you might spark an interest in history and politics within me that was effectively killed during elementary school.

I'd most certainly want to talk about Ibn Khaldun and his theories, for sure

[kromify]

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... but the mushy rhetoric works both ways.  People will use the language of modern civil rights to justify a mage revolution, while at the same time arguing that siding with templars is murder.

*looks around*  Oh, is this the Fenris thread?  lol

...did you think they were going to justify them both at the same time? lol 

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... but the mushy rhetoric works both ways.  People will use the language of modern civil rights to justify a mage revolution, while at the same time arguing that siding with templars is murder.

*looks around*  Oh, is this the Fenris thread?  lol

...did you think they were going to justify them both at the same time? lol 

I can justify all kind of opposites at the same time.
Partially stems from my love to confuse people.

[kromify]

phyreblade74 wrote...

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Did it?  What ends up happening in Thedas as a result of Anders' action is left pretty much up in the air at the end of my game.  Did you get a different ending?  Wild.

it achieved what anders wanted; a fighting chance.  whether or not that chance goes the way he wanted is quite probably for da3

Ahhh, "cutting off your nose to spite your face" logic.

well anders does have a very big nose. plus he can heal the cut  

[phyreblade74]

ipgd wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Nope, still don't get it.

What don't you understand?

To me, it's illogical to attack someone who's done nothing to you, to compel them to do something to you, so you can then fight to save yourself from them doing something to you. 

[ipgd]

kromify wrote...

i think attacking other targets for a desired outcome. because sticking with the obvious targets is on the face of it more sensible

If his goals were to solve an immediate local problem, yes. But he is attacking and attempting to spur the displacement of a thousand year cultural institution.

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... but the mushy rhetoric works both ways.  People will use the language of modern civil rights to justify a mage revolution, while at the same time arguing that siding with templars is murder.

*looks around*  Oh, is this the Fenris thread?  lol

Of course. I don't think I've ever made any attempts to actively advocate for either side, have I? I think simplifying the issue into neat little black and white boxes kind of dilutes the overarching narrative themes. The core worldbuilding done for the mage/templar issue is very difficult and discussions pertaining to it are disserviced by broad generalizations.

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... but the mushy rhetoric works both ways.  People will use the language of modern civil rights to justify a mage revolution, while at the same time arguing that siding with templars is murder.

*looks around*  Oh, is this the Fenris thread?  lol

...did you think they were going to justify them both at the same time? lol 

I can justify all kind of opposites at the same time.
Partially stems from my love to confuse people.

did you want some sugar? then we could make delicious pancakes together!  

[Tealsie]

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Did it?  What ends up happening in Thedas as a result of Anders' action is left pretty much up in the air at the end of my game.  Did you get a different ending?  Wild.

it achieved what anders wanted; a fighting chance.  whether or not that chance goes the way he wanted is quite probably for da3

Ahhh, "cutting off your nose to spite your face" logic.

well anders does have a very big nose. plus he can heal the cut  

I don't think even Anders can regrow a nose.  though it would be interesting if he can reattach things...

[phyreblade74]

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

kromify wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Did it?  What ends up happening in Thedas as a result of Anders' action is left pretty much up in the air at the end of my game.  Did you get a different ending?  Wild.

it achieved what anders wanted; a fighting chance.  whether or not that chance goes the way he wanted is quite probably for da3

Ahhh, "cutting off your nose to spite your face" logic.

well anders does have a very big nose. plus he can heal the cut  

Haha!  Actually, I mod Anders' face every PT.  His nose in my game isn't so big, lol.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I can justify all kind of opposites at the same time.
Partially stems from my love to confuse people.

did you want some sugar? then we could make delicious pancakes together!  

....ok now you're confusing me.

But making pancakes with you does sound delicious....

[phyreblade74]

I'm heading home, guys. Here's me, signing off, saying, "I still like the Elf way way better than the crazed Mage."

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I can justify all kind of opposites at the same time.
Partially stems from my love to confuse people.

did you want some sugar? then we could make delicious pancakes together!  

....ok now you're confusing me.

But making pancakes with you does sound delicious....

i like confusing people too!  

hmm yummy. just let me fetch my, uh, utensils  <3

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd most certainly want to talk about Ibn Khaldun and his theories, for sure

Yet another person I've never even heard about. Terrible form, self If you want to, you can PM me. I'd be open for discussions.

What, you're serious? Really?
Gee, like that's a dream come true


Nah, I'll spare you the boredom. But I may refrerence him next time in my posts.

[ipgd]

phyreblade74 wrote...

To me, it's illogical to attack someone who's done nothing to you, to compel them to do something to you, so you can then fight to save yourself from them doing something to you. 

As his actions are symbolic, so too do the parties involved become representatives. Anders is not attacking Elthina, he is attacking The Compromise she represents -- stagnancy, complacency, valuing the status quo above all; he is not attacking the building of the Chantry, but the cultural and religious institution it represents. Though he ultimately wants to free the mages, he actively provokes their murder through Meredith because her actions will serve as a rallying example of extremity and injustice. Though he ultimately wants peace, presumably, he takes dramatic, violent action in order to draw attention to himself and position himself as a martyr figure to be exploited and galvanize Thedas into the war he believes is required to change the world state. His actions are done with long term goals in mind (THOUGH NOT LONG TERM ENOUGH FOR YOU KOP I'M SURE), not simply immediate ones.

Modifié par ipgd, 28 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Heidenreich]

I love it when I accidentally spark a debate.

It's OKAY if you like Fenris more.. just don't write off Anders because he chose his cause over your hawke ;p He tells you right up front that he's going to, if you listen to him.

Also?

*licks KoP and Ipgd and runs away*

Modifié par Heidenreich, 28 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Haha!  Actually, I mod Anders' face every PT.  His nose in my game isn't so big, lol.

Anybody ever make a mod to put Anders's earring back? I looked all over dragonnexus (and saw some good facial mods, but no earring /cry).

I think the artists did a really good job on the companions overall, it's the DA:O folks who show up in DA2 that I've modded to hell and back. Although, Bann Teagan still looks good, go figure.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 28 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[SurrealSadi]

Tealsie wrote...

I don't think it's so much about either of them(Anders and Fenris) being broken personality-wise... but more mind-wise. Like has been said many times now: He's quite insane.  Or... to use a quote from one of my favorite books(The Tale of Despereaux)

"There are those hearts. reader, that never mend again once they are broken. Or if they do mend, they heal themselves in a crooked and lopsided way, as if sewn together by a careless craftsman."

Fenris tries to put his back together properly, over time. Or fill in the gaps with Hawke's help. Anders seems to realise his is broken, but is more in a "woe is me!  " sort of state, and doesn't try to fix anything... instead he does things which break it even more. At times, I think his mind is so broken that it's pretty much just dust or splinters floating about.   I don't hate or dislike him. If I, personally, were in a relationship with him/someone similar... I wouldn't try to sway him from his "purpose" after a certain point... but I couldn't stay with him either. Partially out of fear that he'll pull all of the same crap all over again.

I can never bring myself to support Fenders(I don't hate it, I just don't agree with it). I think they hate eachother too much to have that kind of a relationship.  

Your comment about splinters makes me go back to the Black Jewels books... In them, the Blood, a race of humans with magical abilities, can go insane, with their Chalice(it is literally a chalice, not symbolism) shattering. 3 prominant characters have their Chalice shatter. One never recovers, the other 2 do(which is INCREDIBLY RARE).

The reason I bring this up is because, in at least 2 different instances, the author describes the one character as moving from piece to piece of her own shattered Chalice, that her Chalice, and therefor her mind, was in shards, and her Self moved between each shard, living in one for a time before moving to the next.

Really good books. I recommend them to everyone. They're by Anne Bishop.