55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

He was the Body Guard/Watch Hound for a Tevinter Magister. In all the dealings that are required in their travels he would have been required to understand the languages or at the minimum figure them out by being around it so much. For example if his Master wanted to relay something to him that he wouldn't want someone else in the room to know? It'd be advantageous to teach your "pet" a few languages as back ups. He was a slave yes but he was also a lyrium infused body guard designed and trained to fight against magic and to mock qunari custom. A warrior chained and enslaved to a mage not the other way around like in the Qun.

[Arquen]

I totally get on board with people in tevinter mostly knowing 2 languages. It seems every tevinter character you encounter is fluent in the common tongue. The problem I have with fenris knowing both languages growing up is the memory wipe. It begs the question if the memory erasure process is specific enough to wipe personal memories but not languages? Or did fenris have to learn everything over again?

I actually imagine the ritual could be targeted to wipe personal memories of family history and name. Yet still remain intact skills such as language and warrior training. Either that or danarius re-taught these things to fenris after the ritual, but it seems likely that he was a warrior or fighter beforehand and probably knew both languages growing up as a child.

So, did he retain his warrior and language knowledge? Did the memory wipe erase everything or just parts? He doesn't remember a childhood so he can't remember how he learned arcanum and the common tongue unless danarius re-taught him. I wish you could ask him. As for the laqun I assume he isn't fluent but more knows it from exposure as said. Also, I didn't really count the dalish because he only really seems to know a couple of phrases that most other city elves would know like shem. Didn't really count it.

[nitefyre410]

Arquen wrote...

I totally get on board with people in tevinter mostly knowing 2 languages. It seems every tevinter character you encounter is fluent in the common tongue. The problem I have with fenris knowing both languages growing up is the memory wipe. It begs the question if the memory erasure process is specific enough to wipe personal memories but not languages? Or did fenris have to learn everything over again?

I actually imagine the ritual could be targeted to wipe personal memories of family history and name. Yet still remain intact skills such as language and warrior training. Either that or danarius re-taught these things to fenris after the ritual, but it seems likely that he was a warrior or fighter beforehand and probably knew both languages growing up as a child.

So, did he retain his warrior and language knowledge? Did the memory wipe erase everything or just parts? He doesn't remember a childhood so he can't remember how he learned arcanum and the common tongue unless danarius re-taught him. I wish you could ask him. As for the laqun I assume he isn't fluent but more knows it from exposure as said. Also, I didn't really count the dalish because he only really seems to know a couple of phrases that most other city elves would know like shem. Didn't really count it.

  


Is it ever stated that branding and   memory wipe were the same ritual - they could have be to seperate  rituals.    The memory targeting his past but leaving intact his fighting ability, basic knowledge of the Tevinter  language and culture. Getting rid of the things that where not needed for him to become the  perfect  weapon.   Seems to me that i would be a waist of  time to completly wipe everything making him blank slate and have to retrain him.
 

[Rheia]

Hi guys! Haven't been here for a long, long time, it feels like

Question for you all: when is the best time to play through Legacy to get the most of Fenris' banters? I haven't installed it yet, have been (re)playing Jade Empire/Civ5 lately... but I'm planning to make another playthrough, and some non-spoilerish advice would be appreciated .

[Ineffable Igor]

I think the memory erasure works like retrograde amnesia (i.e., no short term memory loss or difficulty in remembering new things, but can't remember anything up to the point of onset).  There are different kinds of memory that can be affected depending on what area of the brain is most severely affected by the disease.  In Fenris's case I think it would be his personal memories: things that had happened to him, who he was, friends and family and so on.  His procedural memory remains intact though, so he can still speak any languages he knows and use any skills he has learned, such as his fighting abilities.

I wonder if Danarius actually planned on the whole memory wipe thing.  It's possible that he didn't and it was just a happy accident for him.  Seeing as the branding procedure was so painful, the memory loss could have been due to both physical and psychogical trauma.   

[CulturalGeekGirl]

To the limited extent that amnesia is known and documented, most people retain all skills and languages. This is one of the cooler things about the human mind... language works even if you don't remember learning it, because it's not based on memory. Amnesia can cause difficulty with languages and skills, but it's by no means a given.

Beyond the purely scientific, in literature amnesia has almost always been associated with a complete retention of skills and abilities. There are so many "I have amnesia, and all of a sudden I realize I have combat/lockpicking/other skills that give me hints about what my life was!" sequences it's kind of ridiculous. So I think Fenris retaining all his skills and languages isn't particularly strange, medically or when it comes to the traditional narrative function of amnesia.

[Ramante]

Rheia wrote...

Hi guys! Haven't been here for a long, long time, it feels like

Question for you all: when is the best time to play through Legacy to get the most of Fenris' banters? I haven't installed it yet, have been (re)playing Jade Empire/Civ5 lately... but I'm planning to make another playthrough, and some non-spoilerish advice would be appreciated .

All dialogue connected to a romance is bugged when it comes to Fenris. -.-
So it doesn't really matter at this point when you play the dlc, but if you are in a romance with Fenris I suggest waiting till a patch is released. Otherwise just play it to see what it is about and replay it with the patch.
I suggest taking Anders with you, he is annoying (as usual ) but thanks to him Fenris has some nice banter in the end.

[Rheia]

Ramante wrote...

Rheia wrote...

Hi guys! Haven't been here for a long, long time, it feels like

Question for you all: when is the best time to play through Legacy to get the most of Fenris' banters? I haven't installed it yet, have been (re)playing Jade Empire/Civ5 lately... but I'm planning to make another playthrough, and some non-spoilerish advice would be appreciated .

All dialogue connected to a romance is bugged when it comes to Fenris. -.-
So it doesn't really matter at this point when you play the dlc, but if you are in a romance with Fenris I suggest waiting till a patch is released. Otherwise just play it to see what it is about and replay it with the patch.
I suggest taking Anders with you, he is annoying (as usual ) but thanks to him Fenris has some nice banter in the end.

*laugh* That figures.  I'm going to hope that this will see better fixing than poor Zev's dialogs :/.
Thanks for the heads up on Anders, though! Much appreciated

[Arquen]

Its never states that they are the same ritual. However, if you give fenris back to danarius (ouch my heart!) He sends you a letter about wiping fenris' memories again. Therefore, it is assumed they are 2 different procedures. Of course fenris would not remember the memory wipe procedure I wouldn't think. He does remember the ritual for the pain. I speculate that the ritual and the memory wipe happened close or simultaneously the first time around, but the memory wipe can no doubt be done separately.

As for the memory wipe being like amnesia then that just reinforces my theory that his memories returning is possible then. That he isn't lying about his memories returning then disappearing, but is severed from them due to the memory wipe. Still think its tied to the fade and emotion though. I don't know if they will ever truly come back.

[Dark_Angel_115]

Luke just posted a comment on the ps3 legacy glitch thread that the reason for Fenris's LI banter being glitched and not the other LI's is because his is the only one that is Hawke/Fenris banter where as the others are Companion/Companion banter.... if Im reading what he wrote right...so hopefully since they know what is wrong it will get patched soon.

[Arquen]

Hey... ill take it. It is something!

Still, only one of his LI banters is hawke/fenris. The other one is with varric. That one didn't trigger either. Plus, the isabela/fenris flirts trigger. Grr... one thing at a time I guess. Baby steps. It is something. They are looking into it at least.

[nitefyre410]

Arquen wrote...

Its never states that they are the same ritual. However, if you give fenris back to danarius (ouch my heart!) He sends you a letter about wiping fenris' memories again. Therefore, it is assumed they are 2 different procedures. Of course fenris would not remember the memory wipe procedure I wouldn't think. He does remember the ritual for the pain. I speculate that the ritual and the memory wipe happened close or simultaneously the first time around, but the memory wipe can no doubt be done separately.

As for the memory wipe being like amnesia then that just reinforces my theory that his memories returning is possible then. That he isn't lying about his memories returning then disappearing, but is severed from them due to the memory wipe. Still think its tied to the fade and emotion though. I don't know if they will ever truly come back.

Yes its possible  you really can't wipe some memory just  cut the connections and references that alot the recall the memory.   The memory is still they  he just does not have anything it use to recall the memory.

[Ramante]

Arquen wrote...

Its never states that they are the same ritual. However, if you give fenris back to danarius (ouch my heart!) He sends you a letter about wiping fenris' memories again. Therefore, it is assumed they are 2 different procedures. Of course fenris would not remember the memory wipe procedure I wouldn't think. He does remember the ritual for the pain. I speculate that the ritual and the memory wipe happened close or simultaneously the first time around, but the memory wipe can no doubt be done separately.

As for the memory wipe being like amnesia then that just reinforces my theory that his memories returning is possible then. That he isn't lying about his memories returning then disappearing, but is severed from them due to the memory wipe. Still think its tied to the fade and emotion though. I don't know if they will ever truly come back.

Didn't Gaider post something about the memory wipe occuring because of physical pain (like with Shale forgetting everything when she turned into a golem). i'm pretty sure it wasn't caused by a different spell/procedure but that it was a side-effect of the lyrium injections.

[nitefyre410]

Ramante wrote...

Arquen wrote...

Its never states that they are the same ritual. However, if you give fenris back to danarius (ouch my heart!) He sends you a letter about wiping fenris' memories again. Therefore, it is assumed they are 2 different procedures. Of course fenris would not remember the memory wipe procedure I wouldn't think. He does remember the ritual for the pain. I speculate that the ritual and the memory wipe happened close or simultaneously the first time around, but the memory wipe can no doubt be done separately.

As for the memory wipe being like amnesia then that just reinforces my theory that his memories returning is possible then. That he isn't lying about his memories returning then disappearing, but is severed from them due to the memory wipe. Still think its tied to the fade and emotion though. I don't know if they will ever truly come back.

Didn't Gaider post something about the memory wipe occuring because of physical pain (like with Shale forgetting everything when she turned into a golem). i'm pretty sure it wasn't caused by a different spell/procedure but that it was a side-effect of the lyrium injections.

Possible - the shock of  procedure was too much for him to handle and his brain went in self preservation mode.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 02 août 2011 - 06:41 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Arquen wrote...

Its never states that they are the same ritual. However, if you give fenris back to danarius (ouch my heart!) He sends you a letter about wiping fenris' memories again. Therefore, it is assumed they are 2 different procedures. Of course fenris would not remember the memory wipe procedure I wouldn't think. He does remember the ritual for the pain. I speculate that the ritual and the memory wipe happened close or simultaneously the first time around, but the memory wipe can no doubt be done separately.

As for the memory wipe being like amnesia then that just reinforces my theory that his memories returning is possible then. That he isn't lying about his memories returning then disappearing, but is severed from them due to the memory wipe. Still think its tied to the fade and emotion though. I don't know if they will ever truly come back.

If it was just an accident the first time, I really like the idea of Danarius realizing how very convinient that is for him (the bastard) since it makes Fenris "docile" and "affectionate".  Gives him a blank slate and lets Danarius impose perfect slave mentality on him, no questions asked.  I'm certain that when you send Fenris back with him the second memory wipe is completely on purpose, 'cause hey, it worked wonderfully last time until those pesky Ash Warriors showed up.  God, I hate Danarius.

I really hope he can get his memories back actually.  That would lead to some AMAZING character development as Leto comes back and Fenris has to reconcile these two identities he has.  I'm sure this conversation has happened on here somewhere already, but what do you guys think Leto was like?  I'm sure he and Fenris shared all the same basic personality traits, but they had to have had radically different experiences.  For instance, Leto had family, people he loved who presumably loved him back.  Probably some friends as well, perhaps even lovers.  Arg, it's just so interesting, I really hope BioWare doesn't just leave that alone. 

[Arquen]

But then that dismisses danarius' note about how he wiped fenris' memories again. He didn't go through the lyrium ritual again so it had to be separate. I don't remember gaider saying about it specifically. Though if he did that would definitely be helpful.

[Torax]

You all are forgetting something. Danarius is a Blood Mage. They can effect someones mind. Even Avernus mentioned they were manipulating the nobles but he could only control so much. Danarius could possibly use a trick of his to have Fenris forget specific things if he wished. It's things like that which have many looking at blood mages with fear.

[Arquen]

Blood mages can mind control, seep into dreams, but I don't think they can wipe memories. Now I don't doubt the memory wipe procedure or the ritual don't require some blood magic, but I don't think it is something your average blood mage can accomplish solo. Someone no doubt gets sacrificed to provide the power necessary. Maybe another slave or someone. That's why people fear blood mages, among other reasons.

[Ineffable Igor]

Arquen wrote...

But then that dismisses danarius' note about how he wiped fenris' memories again. He didn't go through the lyrium ritual again so it had to be separate. I don't remember gaider saying about it specifically. Though if he did that would definitely be helpful.

Exactly.  So, accident first time, then some sort of spell with similar effects the next time to achieve the same results.

As for Danarius using blood magic to do it, I think that's probable.

[Arquen]

I don't know if I buy into it was an accident the first time. He may have never tested the ritual before so it is probable. However, I don't see it as so coincidental. It would be easier for danarius and more advantageous for him for fenris to lose his memories. Being the person he is I would assume he figued out how to do that to make the process easier for himself.

I see how it is probable I just don't buy into that much blind luck and coincidence. Im sure the whole thing was meticulously planned.

[Ineffable Igor]

Arquen wrote...

I don't know if I buy into it was an accident the first time. He may have never tested the ritual before so it is probable. However, I don't see it as so coincidental. It would be easier for danarius and more advantageous for him for fenris to lose his memories. Being the person he is I would assume he figued out how to do that to make the process easier for himself.

I see how it is probable I just don't buy into that much blind luck and coincidence. Im sure the whole thing was meticulously planned.

Heh, you give Danarius more credit for cunning than I do, I guess.  Fenris was already a slave, one with ideas about freedom, obviously, or else he wouldn't have competed for his family's freedom, but he still volunteered for further servitude by competing in the first place.  Someone that self-sacrificing, who already has the mindset of a slave, probably wouldn't be so hard for a powerful magister like Danarius to control.  Losing the memory would make things that much easier, but I don't see someone as arrogant as Danarius ever viewing Fenris as a threat, so what would be the point of planning it out? 

Edit: Also, if it was planned the first time, why didn't he just do it again after the situation with the Fog Warriors?  Surely he'd have figured Fenris came away from that experience with some dangerous ideas, even if he did go willingly at first.  He would have wiped him again the second he started to show signs of rebellion and a wish for autonomy.

Modifié par Ineffable Igor, 02 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[Torax]

Danarius isn't your regular blood mage. He's a high ranking magister of the Tevinter Imperium. He likely knew things far beyond the knowledge of anyone writing the codex texts we read now. So what you or I know about Blood Magic is moot compared to what the Archon or High Ranking Magisters can do. The Chantry would never allow such knowledge to exist or spread for example. So whose to say he couldn't delve into a brain enough to make people forget. You can even infer from Avernus' talk of the old nobles that his "nudge" of them could very well include making them forget things he didn't want them to remember.

[UrsulaCousland]

You all got me thinking with the end of Act 2 discussion and Fenris's 'voice' in fic, and this formed in my head and pretty well demanded to be written. I hope you like it.. Darn FF.net and its two-day hold for new users...

Act 2 Epilogue: 9:35 Dragon
Kirkwall

Fenris’s guest continued to sit in her usual place, with one finger firmly across the bridge of her nose as if to distract herself with the pressure or to suppress pain. She did it frequently now. He was uncertain if she was even really paying much attention to her surroundings. The wine he’d offered her stood untouched. As she’d so often done for him, he patiently waited for her to gather her thoughts.

“Have you even slept in the past few days?” He’d asked when she’d first ccepted his invitation inside. She’d said nothing, and shook her head. She was seated for several minutes before she spoke at all. After her brief, quiet, and heartfelt thanks for his support after everything that had happened lately, she’d fallen back into silence and assumed the position in which she sat now.

Finally, she opened her hands, sat up straight, and met his gaze. This wasn’t the determined, confident face she’d presented when she accepted her new signet, crest, and colors as Champion of Kirkwall. She’d presented a brave face to Knight Commander Meredith and to the assembled crowd . To most, she had been every inch the heroine. To anyone in their circle of friends, it was a front. To him, it spoke more loudly than if she had been screaming.

“I thought about what you said about dealing with things in your past.” Aniya began hesitantly.

“And?”

“Are you certain you don’t want my help? What I think you’re suggesting is … best case, insane, and worst case, suicidal, if you try it alone.”

“Yes.”

She nodded, and rubbed the bridge of her nose again. The next thing she said was the last thing he expected.

“I’m leaving Kirkwall, Fenris. I can’t stay here.”

“What?”

She stopped meeting his gaze. “You heard me.”

“Why?” He asked in utter confusion. “How can you just leave?”

“You’re asking me that?” She summoned the strength to glare at him.

Now it was his turn to look away uncomfortably.“I’m sorry. Go on.”

She sighed. “It means mentioning things I agreed not to mention. If you still want to know…” She watched him and waited for his answer. He nodded.

"The short answer is that I'm going to go barking mad if I stay. I don't know if you’ve noticed, but behind all the hero bull****, my life is falling part. I need to get out of here. I’m no good to anyone like this."

She took a sip of wine and continued, looking into the fire. "First it was Bethany. Then, there was -" she closed her eyes for a moment and regained control over her voice, " - what happened between us. Then it was Mother. I oompletely failed to see that she was in danger until it was far too late. Then I stared my own mortality in the face. It may surprise anyone who was at Meredith’s dog and pony show last week that I've accepted only one truth about my life in Kirkwall."

He hesitated. “And that is?”

"I was happier when I was no one in this Maker-forsaken city. At least I still had something that mattered and people who mattered. Now I have an empty house full of terrible memories, no family to speak of, a probably ruined relationship with someone I love, and a title and notoriety that I didn’t ask for and don’t want. And that’s how I can, as you put it, 'just leave.'" There was anger in her voice, and sorrow, and bitterness. It twisted his heart worse than anything had since the night he'd left her. During her recovery, he’d had time to consider what losing her completely would be like. He’d surprised himself by realizing that it was the last thing he wanted to think about.

Say something. Do something. If she leaves like this, it will be over.

And then he remembered something. He’d gotten it some time ago, after she’d convinced him (and then helped him learn) to read and write. It wasn’t much, but it had made him think of her. He’d meant to give it to her when the moment was right, but in the chaos of recent events, he’d completely forgotten about it.

If this wasn’t the right moment, he didn't know what was.

"I think I may have something to say about one of those. It might not be what you want to hear, but it may make things clearer for you.” The words didn't come out quite right, but it bought him time to find what he was looking for in the ruined desk. He turned back to her and took a deep breath of his own.

"I have had this for some time. To be completely honest, I wanted to give it to you before any of this happened." He had to stop for a moment. "I still am not ready to speak of it yet. It may be some time before I am, and there are still things I must do before I can. But I do swear to you that that time will come. Are you willing to accept that?”

Aniya’s reaction was priceless. It went from shock to bafflement to wonder. He saw a flash of her spirit return as she nodded wordlessly. He managed to keep his hands from shaking too much as he fastened his gift around her neck. It was a small, smooth pendant of black jet, with a silver setting that reminded him of stylized wings, on a thin silver chain. She flipped it over and looked at it, and her eyes brightened with unshed tears. She closed her hand around it and clearly worked something through in her head.

"I did a lot of thinking. I didn't think to be prepared for this," she said shakily. Then, her eyes landed on the red sash that one of Meredith’s squires had first tied around her waist during the ceremony. She drew one of the Twins and neatly trimmed it so that she now held a length of bright red silk with the  Crest of the Champion embroidered into it. She had no trouble meeting his gaze now.

"I do plan to return to Kirkwall. I don't know when. But, whether I do or not, I will leave a way for you to find me when you're ready. Are you willing to accept that?"

He was just as tongue-tied as Aniya had been. He had an idea where this was going, though, and held out his arm. She carefully knotted the fabric around his bracer. He tried to ignore the touch of her fingers against his arm as she did so, but failed.

Wordlessly, she held out her arms to him, and they embraced tightly. He only reluctantly let her go, and cleared his throat.

"So. About that. Have you decided where you want to go?” he asked, carefully bringing some humor into his voice.

Aniya chuckled at his comment, and nodded. “I 'm starting out with Ferelden…”

********************************************************************
Goodbyes were never easy. But, at least this one was far more hopeful than it could have been.

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 02 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Carmen_Willow]

UrsulaCousland wrote...

You all got me thinking with the end of Act 2 discussion and Fenris's 'voice' in fic, and this formed in my head and pretty well demanded to be written. I hope you like it.. Darn FF.net and its two-day hold for new users...

Act 2 Epilogue: 9:35 Dragon
Kirkwall
[snip]
********************************************************************
Goodbyes were never easy. But, at least this one was far more hopeful than it could have been.

I hope you don't mind my responding.  

Your story was great!  It bothers me in the game that we never get to see our hero work through the pain and grief.  I love stories that show the Champion as a real human being who hurts just like everyone else. I think everyone on this thread knows that more went on in Fenris' head during those three years...more happened between him and the Champion.  It's great to explore that.

It's not that I want to re-tell the tale, but I want to fill in the gaps. I want to finish the cutscenes that didn't seem quite "done."  I suspect that's good work on the writers' parts as it involves us in the story more deeply than handing it all to us on a platter.

Each one of the characters in this game with the exception of Merrill and Varrick are, in essence, combat veterans, particularly, if you play as something other than a mage. Combat means trauma, both physical and psychological.  Fenris has symptoms of both learned helplessness (from slavery) and learned fearlessness (from being a body guard and then a fugitive for years). It is no wonder that he is both emotionally shut down AND extremely angry at times.  What I like about his character, and grew to appreciate over time is his reaching out through his protective wall to try and reconnect with his emotions. Stories like yours are a way for him to reconnect with the world. That is why I don't take his leaving personally--I know how damaged he is and how much he has to heal. Your story gave me the same feeling.  You weren't blaming him (as Hawke).  You were simply doing what you needed to do.

One of my favorite authors is Susan Howatch who writes in first person, but chooses a different character in the story to tell different parts of the tale in many of her novels.  The technique allows you to see the story from different perspectives, and to "step into the soul" of everyone in the book. 

[Carmen_Willow]

@Arquen

I always figured that, living in Thedas' equivalent of Rome, Fenris was exposed to many different languages from childhood on up, if only from the slaves his master bought. Plus I suspect he has an ear for language just as some have an ear for music. Unless the language center of the brain were damaged, it would be unlikely that he would lose his ability to use language.

As to his amnesia, unless there is some physical damage to the brain, there should be the possibility of reconnecting to the memories. If the memory wipe did brain damage then it would be less likely. Severe pain causes the massive release of certain hormones and chemicals that can short circuit short term memory like a blow to the head would. Psychological trauma can cause hysterical amensia, but again, those memories could be recovered. The fact that Fenris has a short recollection that he loses once more suggests some psychological block...perhaps a block placed there by Denarius much like a post hypnotic suggestion but reinforced by magic. There's also PTSD.