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#42676
Sealy

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Ineffable Igor wrote... 

Edit: Also, if it was planned the first time, why didn't he just do it again after the situation with the Fog Warriors?  Surely he'd have figured Fenris came away from that experience with some dangerous ideas, even if he did go willingly at first.  He would have wiped him again the second he started to show signs of rebellion and a wish for autonomy.


In the questioning beliefs conversation he implies that Danarius didn't catch him. So running away then, and coming to Kirkwall are part of the same event. There was no opportunity to wipe his memory after the fog warriors.
I also think the first memory wipe was accidental since Danarius suggests in "Alone" that as Leto, Fenris actually held Danarius in fond regard, I doubt he worried about Fenris trying to escape. in fact Fenris himself implies he had no desire to remove himself drom his masters side until the Fog warriors showed him the freedom he could enjoy. 

I think that all Fenris' hatred stems from his ritual, the magisters unwittingly took everthing from him with that action, his sense of self, his security, anything that made him who he was. I think Danarius probably hated losing his obediant even happy slave and took that regret out on Fenris for competing and winning in the first place. This leads me to believe that Leto was subserviant and accepting of his own positiong in life, but protective of his family so he wanted to see his mage sister enjoy the position he saw the other mages enjoy, something that would never happen if she was a slave. My head canon tells me Danarius said any slave could enter for any boon, thinking that the slaves would ask for their freedom and believing that Leto wouldn't enter because he didn't want his freedom, which would have been true if Leto wasn't working near his family. Course this is just my head canon. Posted Image 

#42677
Sepewrath

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I would definitely think the first memory wipe was an accident, it would be beneficial for Fenris to remember he wanted to do this and why he did it. Its much easier to control someone who is trying to protect something vs controlling someone who has no reason to defer to you, besides their own personal safety. And when you imbue them with the abilities to protect themselves, they have no reason to bow to you.

Fenris losing his memory of those events and then having to deal with the abuses of Danarius and Hadriana led to him escaping and this rage he has, it worked against them. A second memory wipe makes sense though, because you don't want him remembering the time on the run.

#42678
Yankee23

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Idk, perhaps the memory wipe was done deliberately at the time of the ritual. We know that the markings are valuable to Denarius, maybe the memory wipe was so that he had a blank slate who only knew what he was told. I think that Fenris probably had some wish for freedom but took this chance to at least secure it for his family. Better to have the markings and power that goes with them on someone who knew nothing about ideas of freedom or that they had family somewhere. What's to stop the "unwiped" Leto from using the power he gains to get free and run with his family? Plus, a seperate spell done in conjunction with the ritual would explain how it was able to be done again if Fenris is turned over.

#42679
Ineffable Igor

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Fleshdress wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote... 

Edit: Also, if it was planned the first time, why didn't he just do it again after the situation with the Fog Warriors?  Surely he'd have figured Fenris came away from that experience with some dangerous ideas, even if he did go willingly at first.  He would have wiped him again the second he started to show signs of rebellion and a wish for autonomy.


In the questioning beliefs conversation he implies that Danarius didn't catch him. So running away then, and coming to Kirkwall are part of the same event. There was no opportunity to wipe his memory after the fog warriors.
I also think the first memory wipe was accidental since Danarius suggests in "Alone" that as Leto, Fenris actually held Danarius in fond regard, I doubt he worried about Fenris trying to escape. in fact Fenris himself implies he had no desire to remove himself drom his masters side until the Fog warriors showed him the freedom he could enjoy. 

I think that all Fenris' hatred stems from his ritual, the magisters unwittingly took everthing from him with that action, his sense of self, his security, anything that made him who he was. I think Danarius probably hated losing his obediant even happy slave and took that regret out on Fenris for competing and winning in the first place. This leads me to believe that Leto was subserviant and accepting of his own positiong in life, but protective of his family so he wanted to see his mage sister enjoy the position he saw the other mages enjoy, something that would never happen if she was a slave. My head canon tells me Danarius said any slave could enter for any boon, thinking that the slaves would ask for their freedom and believing that Leto wouldn't enter because he didn't want his freedom, which would have been true if Leto wasn't working near his family. Course this is just my head canon. Posted Image 


Oh.  Whoops.  Yes, you're right, I'd forgotten the details of that conversation.  Nevermind that point then, for some reason I thought he went back to Danarius for a short time after the Fog Warriors.  My mistake.

#42680
ReiSilver

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Back before the game came out I know I was worried about the Lyrium affecting Fenris' mind, since lyrium is such a dangerous material, so until I found out his memory could be wiped again I thought that was where the memory loss came from. Now I think the Lyrium in Fenris must have been treated in some way, since apart from the memory loss he seem healthy.

Also: I'm so happy to hear news on the Legacy banter front! *happy dance*

#42681
Sepewrath

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Yankee23 wrote...

Idk, perhaps the memory wipe was done deliberately at the time of the ritual. We know that the markings are valuable to Denarius, maybe the memory wipe was so that he had a blank slate who only knew what he was told. I think that Fenris probably had some wish for freedom but took this chance to at least secure it for his family. Better to have the markings and power that goes with them on someone who knew nothing about ideas of freedom or that they had family somewhere. What's to stop the "unwiped" Leto from using the power he gains to get free and run with his family? Plus, a seperate spell done in conjunction with the ritual would explain how it was able to be done again if Fenris is turned over.


He wouldn't run with his family because they would essentially be hostages. The chances of him escaping with them, are pretty slim as opposed to his chance of being able to escape alone, because he doesn't remember them. His family would have served as something to hold over him, it wouldn't matter if he had delusions of freedom, he could never act on them. If he thinks he's in the world alone, he has nothing to lose by going for it.

#42682
UrsulaCousland

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

UrsulaCousland wrote...

You all got me thinking with the end of Act 2 discussion and Fenris's 'voice' in fic, and this formed in my head and pretty well demanded to be written. I hope you like it.. Darn FF.net and its two-day hold for new users...

Act 2 Epilogue: 9:35 Dragon
Kirkwall

[snip]
********************************************************************
Goodbyes were never easy. But, at least this one was far more hopeful than it could have been.



I hope you don't mind my responding.  

Not at all! I love getting takes on the stuff that dances around in my head. 

Your story was great!  It bothers me in the game that we never get to see our hero work through the pain and grief.  I love stories that show the Champion as a real human being who hurts just like everyone else. I think everyone on this thread knows that more went on in Fenris' head during those three years...more happened between him and the Champion.  It's great to explore that.

First of all, thank you very much!

What you state here is exactly why I am considering skipping straight to what I like to call the 'Enteracte" between Acts 2 and 3. There's just so much to potentially work with there.

It's not that I want to re-tell the tale, but I want to fill in the gaps. I want to finish the cutscenes that didn't seem quite "done."  I suspect that's good work on the writers' parts as it involves us in the story more deeply than handing it all to us on a platter.

Each one of the characters in this game with the exception of Merrill and Varrick are, in essence, combat veterans, particularly, if you play as something other than a mage. Combat means trauma, both physical and psychological.  Fenris has symptoms of both learned helplessness (from slavery) and learned fearlessness (from being a body guard and then a fugitive for years). It is no wonder that he is both emotionally shut down AND extremely angry at times.  What I like about his character, and grew to appreciate over time is his reaching out through his protective wall to try and reconnect with his emotions. Stories like yours are a way for him to reconnect with the world. That is why I don't take his leaving personally--I know how damaged he is and how much he has to heal. Your story gave me the same feeling.  You weren't blaming him (as Hawke).  You were simply doing what you needed to do.


An excellent analysis. ITA.

Character development is why I read certain authors rather than others. It's why some games capture my imagination and many don't.  Fenris has his demons, but I think a lot of people forget that Hawke also has plenty of potential demons and lots of opportunity to heal and grow as well. It's why I really like writing for Hawke, and why I spend so much time trying to get into the other NPCs' 'heads', especially Fenris's. It was the same with DAO, but I can do it even more readily in DA2's setting.

One of my favorite authors is Susan Howatch who writes in first person, but chooses a different character in the story to tell different parts of the tale in many of her novels.  The technique allows you to see the story from different perspectives, and to "step into the soul" of everyone in the book. 

Interesting. I'll look her up. Thanks!:o

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 03 août 2011 - 04:14 .


#42683
UrsulaCousland

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Ineffable Igor wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote... 

Edit: Also, if it was planned the first time, why didn't he just do it again after the situation with the Fog Warriors?  Surely he'd have figured Fenris came away from that experience with some dangerous ideas, even if he did go willingly at first.  He would have wiped him again the second he started to show signs of rebellion and a wish for autonomy.


In the questioning beliefs conversation he implies that Danarius didn't catch him. So running away then, and coming to Kirkwall are part of the same event. There was no opportunity to wipe his memory after the fog warriors.
I also think the first memory wipe was accidental since Danarius suggests in "Alone" that as Leto, Fenris actually held Danarius in fond regard, I doubt he worried about Fenris trying to escape. in fact Fenris himself implies he had no desire to remove himself drom his masters side until the Fog warriors showed him the freedom he could enjoy. 

I think that all Fenris' hatred stems from his ritual, the magisters unwittingly took everthing from him with that action, his sense of self, his security, anything that made him who he was. I think Danarius probably hated losing his obediant even happy slave and took that regret out on Fenris for competing and winning in the first place. This leads me to believe that Leto was subserviant and accepting of his own positiong in life, but protective of his family so he wanted to see his mage sister enjoy the position he saw the other mages enjoy, something that would never happen if she was a slave. My head canon tells me Danarius said any slave could enter for any boon, thinking that the slaves would ask for their freedom and believing that Leto wouldn't enter because he didn't want his freedom, which would have been true if Leto wasn't working near his family. Course this is just my head canon. Posted Image 


Oh.  Whoops.  Yes, you're right, I'd forgotten the details of that conversation.  Nevermind that point then, for some reason I thought he went back to Danarius for a short time after the Fog Warriors.  My mistake.


Yep. I just re-researched this too, as I'm busy writing a 'Leto' chapter early on and trying to figure out how to handle some other pre-Kirkwall events in Fenris' life. My take is that it's deliberate. And, as others have pointed out, it's possible to have excellent procedural memory and have serious amnesia in other ways.  

Knight-Captain Cullen makes a comment about blood mages in DA:O that also speaks to what they can do to manipulate people's minds and actions.  It's really pretty frightening the way he presents it, and I have no doubt that Danarius has access to both the knowledge and the power to fuel sucha memory manipulation.

He may be a fool in other ways, but Danarius appears to have magical theory down very well. It does explain why Fenris could undergo what he does with the markings and survive at all; we all know lyrium can easily be lethal. I can also imagine Danarius using Leto/Fenris's own blood to fuel at least some of that ritual. I don't think it's out of the realm of liklihood that Danarius is also good at messing with people's heads and does it all the time.

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 03 août 2011 - 04:25 .


#42684
UrsulaCousland

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Ramante wrote...

Rheia wrote...

Hi guys! Haven't been here for a long, long time, it feels like :)

Question for you all: when is the best time to play through Legacy to get the most of Fenris' banters? I haven't installed it yet, have been (re)playing Jade Empire/Civ5 lately... but I'm planning to make another playthrough, and some non-spoilerish advice would be appreciated :).

All dialogue connected to a romance is bugged when it comes to Fenris. -.-
So it doesn't really matter at this point when you play the dlc, but if you are in a romance with Fenris I suggest waiting till a patch is released. Otherwise just play it to see what it is about and replay it with the patch.
I suggest taking Anders with you, he is annoying (as usual :P) but thanks to him Fenris has some nice banter in the end.


I think I'm going to do that soon. I know Anders is a good choice to bring and I want to get his take on Grey Warden perspectives on things. I'm kinda waiting to see if they're going to look at the Fenris Legacy banter before I replay it, but I'm definitely eager to take him along as well, and of course, to see what you're talking about here. :)

#42685
Arquen

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Since we have no idea how much Fenris' actually knew about the ritual and what he was competing for we can't assume that Leto would not have rebelled after receiving the markings. As this has been discussed at length before, I'll only say that I don't believe Leto was a loyal slave "fond" of Danarius.

Also, I think someone who went through something so traumatic would still come out with a hate, and would have MORE reason to run if he remembered his family. Being alone, having his memory wiped allows him to be completely dependent on Danarius for everything. He would be less inclined to run because he doesn't have a place, a person, or a life to run to. The only life he knows is as a slave with Danarius.

The fact that he competed for freedom for his family shows how much he cared about them, and likewise you don't think they would try to come back for him somehow? Imagine if he had remembered Varania and saw her on the street living as an urchin or a **** or whatever she had to do to get by. He wouldn't think of escaping to help her? He wouldn't try to reconnect with them somehow? I seriously doubt he would be paralyzed with fear of escaping because Danarius might go after them. As Fenris he literally becomes someone who has nothing. Why does someone who has nothing to live for and no-one to care about want to escape?

It becomes a sort of Stockholm syndrome - in that he probably felt Danarius was giving life by simply not taking it. In that sense, Danarius becomes the person in control of Fenris' basic needs for survival and his life itself (paraphrased from the stockholm wiki). This is also why I don't believe Danarius means that Fenris genuinely was FOND of him, but is a leer and sarcastic jab at the life that Fenris had where he didn't try to escape.

Family and memory represent hope, and THAT is why I don't think it was an accident, but a carefully decided manipulation. Someone who has everything taken is easier to manipulate. It wouldn't be that Danarius is afraid of Fenris' will to escape, but he is going to protect this investment and if there is a way to wipe his memory to make it easier to train him and prevent him from running. He is going to do it.

Modifié par Arquen, 03 août 2011 - 04:47 .


#42686
UrsulaCousland

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Arquen wrote...

Since we have no idea how much Fenris' actually knew about the ritual and what he was competing for we can't assume that Leto would not have rebelled after receiving the markings. As this has been discussed at length before, I'll only say that I don't believe Leto was a loyal slave "fond" of Danarius.

Also, I think someone who went through something so traumatic would still come out with a hate, and would have MORE reason to run if he remembered his family. Being alone, having his memory wiped allows him to be completely dependent on Danarius for everything. He would be less inclined to run because he doesn't have a place, a person, or a life to run to. The only life he knows is as a slave with Danarius.

The fact that he competed for freedom for his family shows how much he cared about them, and likewise you don't think they would try to come back for him somehow? Imagine if he had remembered Varania and saw her on the street living as an urchin or a **** or whatever she had to do to get by. He wouldn't think of escaping to help her? He wouldn't try to reconnect with them somehow? I seriously doubt he would be paralyzed with fear of escaping because Danarius might go after them. As Fenris he literally becomes someone who has nothing. Why does someone who has nothing to live for and no-one to care about want to escape?

It becomes a sort of Stockholm syndrome - in that he probably felt Danarius was giving life by simply not taking it. In that sense, Danarius becomes the person in control of Fenris' basic needs for survival and his life itself (paraphrased from the stockholm wiki). This is also why I don't believe Danarius means that Fenris' genuinely was FOND of him, but is a leer and sarcastic jab at the life that Fenris' had where he didn't try to escape. Family and memory represent hope, and THAT is why I don't think it was an accident, but a carefully decided manipulation. Someone who has everything taken is easier to manipulate. It wouldn't be that Danarius is afraid of Fenris' will to escape, but he is going to protect this investment and if there is a way to wipe his memory to make it easier to train him and prevent him from running. He is going to do it.


I so want a 'like' button right now. :)

#42687
Arquen

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Oh on the subject of Leto -- tvtropes states "Leto directly translates as 'summer' in some Slavic languages, and 'he who is always happy' in Latin. Considering his current less than sunny disposition, this goes to show how much he's lost."

Also, in ancient greek mythology Leto is a goddess born of the Titans (mother of Artemis [the huntress] and Apollo) and her name is thought to have originated as "possibly related to "lethe" (λήθη; oblivion) and "Lotus" (the fruit that brings oblivion to those who eat it). Or letho which would thus mean "the hidden one." (from the leto wiki)

So, since his name is then changed to Fenris, and it is pretty obvious that his disposition is no longer relevant to "summer" or "happiness" in any way I can picture together pieces of who I think Leto is. Moreover, he would be the exact opposite kind of person to what Fenris is now. Except for two distinctions of personality that I think he always had. That being 1.) his loyalty and protectiveness of people he loves/cares about and 2.) his humor -- although maybe as Leto it was less Deadpan and more to cheer people up around him.

#42688
Sepewrath

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Just because a person is alone doesn't mean they have nothing to live for lol. A desire for freedom is a desire for freedom, whether your alone or have someone to share it with. Simply put, your not going to lay your life at the feet of someone you hate, who does nothing but abuse you, when you have nothing to lose by escaping from that.

A person with nothing to lose is like a cornered animal, they can and will do anything. Yes he cared about his family hence the reason he underwent the procedure, someone like that would not have risked them; especially if they were promised a better life for his sacrifice. I have to disagree with you and say it was definitely an accident.

#42689
Ineffable Igor

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Arquen wrote...

Since we have no idea how much Fenris' actually knew about the ritual and what he was competing for we can't assume that Leto would not have rebelled after receiving the markings. As this has been discussed at length before, I'll only say that I don't believe Leto was a loyal slave "fond" of Danarius.


Agreed, I don't think he harbored any genuine feelings of affection or loyalty for Danarius.  However, there's a large difference between loyalty and mind control/brainwashing.  Admittedly, I'm making an assumption, but the fact that he grew up a slave leads me to believe that this would have been a very large factor in Leto's psychological make-up. 

Also, I think someone who went through something so traumatic would still come out with a hate, and would have MORE reason to run if he remembered his family. Being alone, having his memory wiped allows him to be completely dependent on Danarius for everything. He would be less inclined to run because he doesn't have a place, a person, or a life to run to. The only life he knows is as a slave with Danarius.


Hatred would certainly be there, I agree, but I think fear would overpower that in a situation where the person in question has been systematically abused their entire lives and never taught to think critically or question.  It's amazing the kind of crap someone can get away with simply by convincing their victims that they are worthless, which would absolutely happen in a slavery situation as it make the slaves easy to control.  Someone with no self-respect isn't going to rebel.  It's why there are so many people in abusive relationships who stay.  Sure, they'll still act on behalf of those they care about, but doing anything to help themselves would require a kind of self-esteem they never would have had the opportunity to develop.

The fact that he competed for freedom for his family shows how much he cared about them, and likewise you don't think they would try to come back for him somehow? Imagine if he had remembered Varania and saw her on the street living as an urchin or a **** or whatever she had to do to get by. He wouldn't think of escaping to help her? He wouldn't try to reconnect with them somehow? I seriously doubt he would be paralyzed with fear of escaping because Danarius might go after them. As Fenris he literally becomes someone who has nothing. Why does someone who has nothing to live for and no-one to care about want to escape?


I actually don't think they would have come back for him.  They didn't come back for when his memory got wiped, why would they if it hadn't?  Which is not to say they didn't love and care for him, but I don't think they would even have any idea what to do with themselves once they were free (thus Varania's "Freedom was no boon!"), why would they want to drag Leto into that as well?  Especially given that freedom would be basically meaningless simply because they're elves.  How are they supposed to make a better life when no one would even consider giving them the chance?  Leto's heart was in the right place, but given the circumstances he did his family no favors by buying their freedom.  

And if Fenris was going to see Varania at all, why would it matter if his mind had been wiped or not?  In a memory wiped scenario, she would either approach him and address him as family, not recognize him, or not approach him because Danarius had threatened her.  And if Danarius had threatened her to stay away in the first place and planned on them never seeing each other again, why bother with a memory wipe?  Seems like a lot of unnecessary trouble to go to over someone who's already a slave.  Leto doesn't have anything either, except the idea of a family he would have no contact with anyway.    

It becomes a sort of Stockholm syndrome - in that he probably felt Danarius was giving life by simply not taking it. In that sense, Danarius becomes the person in control of Fenris' basic needs for survival and his life itself (paraphrased from the stockholm wiki). This is also why I don't believe Danarius means that Fenris genuinely was FOND of him, but is a leer and sarcastic jab at the life that Fenris had where he didn't try to escape.


This is true.  However, this is the mindset Leto would have been raised in from the start in all probability, so why reset it?  

Family and memory represent hope, and THAT is why I don't think it was an accident, but a carefully decided manipulation. Someone who has everything taken is easier to manipulate. It wouldn't be that Danarius is afraid of Fenris' will to escape, but he is going to protect this investment and if there is a way to wipe his memory to make it easier to train him and prevent him from running. He is going to do it.


Except taking everything away from someone doesn't mean you have to make them forget everything that's ever happened to them.  There would be a lot more amnesiacs walking around if that were the case.  You just have to convince them that their life hase no purpose beyond serving their master's will, which is how most slaves would feel to begin with.  What hope is there in that kind of situation, even if the slave has loved and been loved by other slaves?  I agree that Danarius wouldn't be afraid of Fenris's will to escape, he wouldn't figure on him having a will to escape.  As far as he's concerned, he wouldn't need to do a memory wipe.     

#42690
Arquen

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As stated we can't assume that Leto knew anything about the ritual or what exactly he was buying for his family.

My nothing to live for statement came from the fact that Fenris states himself that he never thought of escaping. He knew only what Danarius told him and the life of a slave. Now as Leto we can't assume anything. The name suggests he was a more happy individual, and that his life was a slave's life, but he was probably taken as Fenris rather young. I assume he spent many years in Danarius' service as Fenris and not many years in service as Leto.

He cared enough about his family to compete for their freedom. I seriously doubt he agreed to the ritual in so many words, but that is indeed another discussion.

The point is I don't believe Leto would sit idle and just let his family escape. I don't believe he would just give over to the slave mentality because he has hope that his family is out there and as I said if he saw Varania he wouldn't feel sorry for her and try to help her? He wouldn't worry about them? He wouldn't try and find them?

Now as far as Varania or his family coming back for him. If Fenris does not know them they would be less inclined to try and get him back. If they see him and he does not recognize them. If they hear Danarius has a new pet bodyguard named Fenris and they put 2 and 2 together I doubt they would attempt to try and convince him who they are. However, if his memory is intact he would try to find them, and they would try to reconcile with him no doubt. If only for help and aid because it is true free elves don't have much. I'm sure Danarius played it out in his head like this:

If I wipe his memory he will be easily manipulated to my will because he will not try to escape to find his family and his family will not try to find him after they realize he doesn't know them. Also, he will not remember being loved, having people that care about him, or having hope that he could be with a family again. He will become my bodyguard, nothing more. No baggage.

If he remains as Leto, he will remember his family. That will comfort him, that will be a source of hope for him. That will cause him to be rebellious at times because of them. If I threaten them it may make him rebel and fight for them. He will feel better about himself for what he did for them. He might even be proud of his sacrifice. Leto can potentially cause problems because he cares to much about others especially his family.

Basically it isn't about fight -- or will to survive when I say he has nothing to live for. It is the fact that by wiping his memories you wipe his only social support and network of psychological comfort. As Leto he has more reason to run. He has more reason to try to escape because he has somewhere to escape to. He has a family that needs him/wants him, and now a new power to achieve goals of freedom. Leto obviously valued a slave's freedom. He obviously thought about what it would be like to be free because otherwise he would not have asked for it for his family. Fenris, however, only knows that he is a slave alone in Danarius' world and is more prone to stockholm syndrome than a person like Leto would be. Simply because Fenris has no support. Literally has no reason to live other than to just exist. Leto would have a reason to live - to see his family again, to protect himself, to make sure the people he loves remain safe and free while he endures his sacrifice. He may not try to escape, but he has WAY more reason to try than Fenris.

Fenris doesn't know who he is, where he will go, how he could escape. To not have anyone to run to. Anyone to care about - he has less to lose but that makes it more difficult to take the first step to freedom. You have to have a reason to want to escape. He didn't desire freedom or even think about it anymore because his goal is survival. His concentration is to live hour to hour and not displease his master. I doubt Leto had that mentality. A slave growing up with a family would have values and morals and ideas. An abused, oppressed, solitary slave would rely only on his master for providing his needs. I just can't put Leto's oppression and Fenris' oppression on the same scale. I don't think Leto is the mindless slave Fenris is. Even growing up as a slave we can't assume his life was the same as when he was Fenris. He at least had social support -- a mother and a sister. As Fenris he has nobody but -- what Hadrianna? Danarius? Other slaves who no doubt were afraid of him and maybe even resented or hated him?

#42691
Arquen

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6 hours!? Where is everyone!?

Anyways, was browsing Tumblr -- WHY!? -- also rewatching Code Geass for like the 50th time and I'm browsing Tumblr all nonchalantly when I found this....

http://toxictigress....post/8406783408

I laughed way more than I should have.

Modifié par Arquen, 03 août 2011 - 01:58 .


#42692
nitefyre410

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Arquen wrote...

6 hours!? Where is everyone!?

Anyways, was browsing Tumblr -- WHY!? -- also rewatching Code Geass for like the 50th time and I'm browsing Tumblr all nonchalantly when I found this....

http://toxictigress....post/8406783408

I laughed way more than I should have.



LOL- thats funny  made my morning.

#42693
Lilunebrium

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Sepewrath wrote...

Just because a person is alone doesn't mean they have nothing to live for lol. A desire for freedom is a desire for freedom, whether your alone or have someone to share it with. Simply put, your not going to lay your life at the feet of someone you hate, who does nothing but abuse you, when you have nothing to lose by escaping from that.

A person with nothing to lose is like a cornered animal, they can and will do anything. Yes he cared about his family hence the reason he underwent the procedure, someone like that would not have risked them; especially if they were promised a better life for his sacrifice. I have to disagree with you and say it was definitely an accident.


I don't think you realize how wholesome a memory wipe is. It's not just persons that go missing from your mind, but culture, history, manners, -everything-.
It's pretty much as if Danarius was handed a newborn. Danarius' world became Fenris', and while he may have been disgusted by what he saw and what he experienced, I imagine that to him, it was merely the way the world worked. His master holds all the power, slaves get abused, he himself is powerless. 

It's not until he gets left behind at Seheron that he realizes just how wrong everything in his life is. It was his wake-up call, he pretty much says so himself when Hawke asks about it.

On another note;

Arquen wrote...
http://toxictigress....post/8406783408


This is just the -perfect- depiction of all my Fenris-related reactions. <3

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 03 août 2011 - 02:49 .


#42694
dangereusegirl

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omg i love that. the peeps on tumblr can always make me laugh

the 'let me love you' pic sums me up perfectly XD

#42695
Dr. Doctor

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I almost think that his mind isn't so much wiped as its stored inside of the markings. The dwarves invented a way to store memories within lyrium (See codex entry for lyrium). Theoreticly, the ritual could have inadvertently transfered Leto's memories into the markings and every so often activating them jostles something loose. At least its not like Thane in ME2 who just stops and recalls things at random times.

#42696
Arquen

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The act 3 one was so me exactly... I swear that was my exact face, LOL. I died laughing at the "I have so many Feeelings!" one. Yeah the Tumblr people can be real hit and miss, but this one made my day.

Act 3 Hawke is sitting in the chair like:
Posted Image

Also the Danarius one... that was me perfectly summed up:

Hawke all in the corner like:
Posted Image

As for the serious discussion. I just can't buy into the accident thing. I don't think Danarius would have stopped at any length to protect his investment. I may give him to much evil credit, but honestly the guy was pure cunning and backstabbery in a box. He didn't become a Tevinter Magister by just blind luck. I'm sure he made due process and calculation out of the ritual and weighed the pros and cons of a memory wipe. Mostly coming out with pros.

#42697
Yankee23

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Arquen wrote...

As for the serious discussion. I just can't buy into the accident thing. I don't think Danarius would have stopped at any length to protect his investment. I may give him to much evil credit, but honestly the guy was pure cunning and backstabbery in a box. He didn't become a Tevinter Magister by just blind luck. I'm sure he made due process and calculation out of the ritual and weighed the pros and cons of a memory wipe. Mostly coming out with pros.


As was mentioned before, freedom must have had some appeal to Leto in order for him to fight to get it for his family.  If Denarius has the means to wipe his memory and end up with someone he can "shape", that is a lot easier than giving someone that type of power and possibly having to keep a close watch and make threats to his family to keep him in line. I definitely think Denarius went for the convenient option and probably took some perverse pleasure in being able to take so much away from someone.

#42698
Dr. Doctor

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Yankee23 wrote...

Arquen wrote...

As for the serious discussion. I just can't buy into the accident thing. I don't think Danarius would have stopped at any length to protect his investment. I may give him to much evil credit, but honestly the guy was pure cunning and backstabbery in a box. He didn't become a Tevinter Magister by just blind luck. I'm sure he made due process and calculation out of the ritual and weighed the pros and cons of a memory wipe. Mostly coming out with pros.


As was mentioned before, freedom must have had some appeal to Leto in order for him to fight to get it for his family.  If Denarius has the means to wipe his memory and end up with someone he can "shape", that is a lot easier than giving someone that type of power and possibly having to keep a close watch and make threats to his family to keep him in line. I definitely think Denarius went for the convenient option and probably took some perverse pleasure in being able to take so much away from someone.


Either that or Danarius just threw science magic at the wall and saw what stuck.

Danarius: You know not too many of my subjects survived the initial tests, but I'm sure you'll be fine.

Fenris: Should I be awake for this?

Danarius: Well...no but I'm sure everything will work out just peachy.

#42699
Annarl

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ReiSilver wrote...

Back before the game came out I know I was worried about the Lyrium affecting Fenris' mind, since lyrium is such a dangerous material, so until I found out his memory could be wiped again I thought that was where the memory loss came from. Now I think the Lyrium in Fenris must have been treated in some way, since apart from the memory loss he seem healthy.

Also: I'm so happy to hear news on the Legacy banter front! *happy dance*


I wondered at this too since in DAO we meet a dwarf, the vendor, whose mind was affected by lyrium.  How healthy can it be to have all that lyrium under your skin?:huh:

I would like to know how the ritual was done and if the memory wipe was intention or a by-product of the procedure.  Controling a person's memories is a powerful tool and if done on purpose Danarius was indeed a powerful mage.

#42700
Annarl

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Dr. Doctor wrote...

I almost think that his mind isn't so much wiped as its stored inside of the markings. The dwarves invented a way to store memories within lyrium (See codex entry for lyrium). Theoreticly, the ritual could have inadvertently transfered Leto's memories into the markings and every so often activating them jostles something loose. At least its not like Thane in ME2 who just stops and recalls things at random times.


That is interesting.  I wonder could Fenris learn to trigger the memories.  He has learned to use them to help his fighting abilities.  It could mean that he could use the markings to store information on too.  Maybe aiding him in learning languages.:P