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[nitefyre410]

john-in-france wrote...

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to members of the Fenris fan club interested in medieval historical comparisons to a new thread in the General Discussion forum: DA Universe and the Real Crusades.

Debate and discussion. Only DA Universe and real history allowed. But I'm sure that some of you can cope with that! Besides who is going to debate on behalf of the inquisition being right otherwise, not to mention keeping sorcerers under control?

First, before you glow fist me to death, the topic starting the first conversations was pretty much in the same line as the rules of the thread. I wasn't specifically dissing Anders (for once) but exploring what may have sparked Biowares story arc.

Angels and Demons vs Spirits and Demons.

http://social.biowar...49547/1#8049634

 

Awesome.

[Arquen]

Okay so going back through some information on the Fenris rivalry thing.

Basically what it appears is that you have to be 100% friend or rival for him to stay with you at end game. If you are 80-90-95 and friendship he will leave you and side with Meredith but you will have the option to speak with him in the Gallows and get him back.

I have not found an example of this on rival. For some reason people don't get him to 80-90-95 on rival. However, I believe that on rival he cannot be persuaded back. He must be locked 100% rival for it to be guaranteed for him to stay. This is theory though since I can't find an example of someone actually doing/seeing this.

His friendship can be maxed by early act 2. His rivalry can be maxed by early act 2. The thing about Fenris is that he has pivotal conversations that give A LOT of points. You can gain like 25 rivalry points with him from your first conversation outside Danarius' mansion. Likewise there are little tidbits like threatening Thrask about exposing that his daughter was an apostate and blood mage (+10 friendship with Fenris, rivalry with everyone else, LOL). However, it is easiest to get his points from his conversations and gifts. What people tend to do that keeps them in neutral zone is to be all kind to mages but still hate on slavery. Hating slavery and killing slavers gets friendship points. So, you either go YAY slaves or you leave Fenris at home. If you simply love on mages it isn't enough because there are some big point gains from slaver quests.

I've got his friend/rival thing down to a system, LOL. It's silly how I can max him by act 2 and then do whatever the hell I want with the mages, MUAHAHAHA.

ALSO.. WTF happened to our TOP rule?! The last 8 pages there have been no Fenris ToPs. In fact no Fenris pictures at ALL.. I am disappoint. 

So... Found this to be relevant to the rival thing.. and HILARIOUS



by radientphoenix

Modifié par Arquen, 06 août 2011 - 02:54 .

[Annarl]

Arquen wrote...

Oh fenders... it would be nice to have this discussion in the fenris thread for once. Though im sick of the argument personally.

For my pov im pretty much against the idea of fenders. It just doesn't make sense at all. They do hate eachother. If you took hawke out of the picture then they would never have had any kind of interaction at all. I just don't see them reconciling enough to get to that point.

Fenris will never accept what Anders did with justice. He is pure abomination in fenris' eyes. He has another being controlling his actions at times and then has the audacity to think he is harmless to others because justice is special. Fenris wont ever see that as a good thing. Anders represents a weak mage to him. A mage who took in a demon/ spirit/ whatever to gain power. Even if it was power to save mages or for good intentions. Mages use any excuse or justification to gain power and the consequences usually lead to tradgedy.

Meanwhile Anders wont budge on the issue he is right the world is wrong. He doesn't even attempt to find a common thread except in act 1 he states fenris should want to help circle mages because they are slaves. To equivolate it makes fenris more angry than sympathetic so backfires. Just... the only hope they have is to find a thin common thread to balance on. Fenris being very isolated and introverted would not open himself up to Anders so I doubt it goes farther than tolerance of presence.

This is pretty much my opinion on Fenders.  I think the pairing is really twisted.  I can't see it myself.  But for those who do...Enjoy!!

[Lioba]

Arquen wrote...





by radientphoenix

awesome!

[tankgirly]

This is interesting.

by radientphoenix111

[SurrealSadi]

That's a good way to spar....

[Giggles_Manically]

by radientphoenix111
Dont know if anyone posted this one yet but I seriously lol'ed.

[Heidenreich]

Arquen wrote...

Okay so going back through some information on the Fenris rivalry thing.

*snipped rest + amazing picture*

I'm.. ever so slowly thanks to needing to spend time playing WoW w/ the hubby to keep him humored... putting together an "Anti-slavery" rivalry chart for Acts 1 and 2 for Fenris. I'm right smack in the middle of the hubbies no-raid "weekend" so its on hold at the moment. Come tomarrow though I -should- be able to toss the whole list together in a blog post and toss the link up.

Basically you can get 50% rivalry in act 1 with out having to once be pro-slavery. <3

[Masako52]

dangereusegirl wrote...

Oh god, Harry/Draco

-shudders-

I'm not a Fenders shipper, personally, so I'm not the best person to say what people look for in those two getting together. Frankly, it seems so out of character for Fenris, who rags on those who are the worst of mages (anders-abomination, merrill-blood mage), to suddenly want one of them. It just doesn't compute with my almost-twenty year old brain. Like you point out, Fleshdress, maybe its the love/hate thing. Perhaps people misinterpret their passionate stances on a controversial subject as being suppressed sexual tension. I dunno.

One reason Fenders doesn't work with me, and I apologize if I step on a few toes here, is because I don't think of Fenris as being bisexual. I know all of the LIs, barring Seb, are availble for male and female Hawke, but Fenris is one that I don't see being with m!Hawke. Ever. I will never have a playthrough where m!Hawke ends up with him. It just doesn't work for me. Let him go be happy with Isabela, if I don't take her up on her offer. May they find happiness together.

Okay, on second thought, I take that back. There is one slash pairing with Fenris I can see working, but in the interest of staying on track, I'll save it until later.

Anders, on the other hand, I do see as being a viable option.I blame that on the numerous Nathaniel/Anders fics I read before DA2 came out. And the fact that Anders even addresses it in game with a male Hawke makes me believe in it more. Does Fenris ever address it with Hawke? I don't remember seeing anything about that. I should go look it up later on youtube to see if anyone posts a vid.

In my mind, the only way Fenders could ever be viable, is if they met before Anders allowed Justice to possess him, and before Fenris got his markings. So we're talking way back and most likely in Tevinter. But since I don't think Anders actually ever made it to Tevinter before, it still wouldn't work.

That's my opinion anyway. Which I think is sort of the point. Perception is the big thing here. Just because I don't see Fenders working, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. In fact, the fact that there are fics out there just proves that people do see it working.

That's all I have to say for right now. It's almost four in the morning and I need to get some sleep. I'll come back after awhile and clarify my post if need be.

Night everyone!

You may not see Fenris as bisexual, but he IS bisexual. Or, you could say, Hawke-sexual. Then again, I'm actually the opposite. The thought of Fenris with a girl is so wrong to me, like, it doesn't make any sense in my head. Fenris is so perfect with m!Hawke, imo, but with f!Hawke it just seems... urgh, I dunno how to explain it. I don't think I could personally ever romance Fenris with Lady Hawke though. Even if both Hawkes are essentially the same person sans what's between their legs, Fenris resonates far more with m!Hawke to me.

Then again, in general I prefer gay romances because they're more interesting to me. And whenever I play Lady Hawke, I have to romance Isabela just because. But with every other LI I see them as equally into fem or m!Hawke, just not Fenris for whatever reason.

I like Fenders, but I agree that in game you really have to stretch to see it. I like messed up, love/hate relationships. Though unfortunately, Anders and Fenris really kick on the hate side, but I am not adverse to throwing in some angsty sexual attraction there. I mean, they have sooo much in common. They both glow, for one. Seems like enough of a basis for a relationship to me. Plus I like theories about sexy lyrium attraction. Nothing fluffy or domestic though, of course. But I don't think there's anything wrong with reading between lines and creating relationships as long as you don't blatantly disregard canon.

[nitefyre410]

Giggles_Manically wrote...


by radientphoenix111
Dont know if anyone posted this one yet but I seriously lol'ed.

Mind ... Blown 
and maybe   more... 

I know keep it pg-13 but  that joke was screaming to be made.  

Fenris as member fellow member of the male gender I tell you this bro - forget the book.

[Sealy]

Masako52 wrote...

I like Fenders, but I agree that in game you really have to stretch to see it. I like messed up, love/hate relationships. Though unfortunately, Anders and Fenris really kick on the hate side, but I am not adverse to throwing in some angsty sexual attraction there. I mean, they have sooo much in common. They both glow, for one. Seems like enough of a basis for a relationship to me. Plus I like theories about sexy lyrium attraction. Nothing fluffy or domestic though, of course. But I don't think there's anything wrong with reading between lines and creating relationships as long as you don't blatantly disregard canon.

 I see no way of pairing them without making it either non-con on one of their parts because there is no attraction between them. The don't like, respect or even regard one another unless it is to spit and snarl. The only even slightly civil interaction you get from them is when Fenris tells Anders that he should notice his limitations, and that he wasn't accusing, he was pointing out, and even that is layerd with disdain. I see no way of pairing them up without disregarding canon. I also can't see the relationship because a lot of what I have read seems to be used as a way to redeem one or both characters from aspects of their personality so it isn't just plot that has to be tossed, it's the entire character build. 

[Carmen_Willow]

UrsulaCousland wrote...

Ugh...formatting demons...

 Prompt: Memory 

An obscure inn in one of the cities of the Free Marches
9:37 Dragon

Fenris closed the copy of The Tales of the Black Fox that he’d borrowed from Aniya. She was right; he had enjoyed It. “It’s been one of my favorites for a very long time,” she’d said, right after he’d nearly put it back. It was the only book she’d ever even remotely hesitated to loan him. [snip]

This is the first chance I've had to come onto the boards.  Great story!

[Carmen_Willow]

omearaee wrote...

I have tried very hard to be a wicked character and I never pull it off.  Even my renegade Shepard isn't that renegade.  And like some of those interrupts.   I always end up with a relatively good characters.  Sometimes I can pull off neutral but not truly agressive hard heart main characters.  

Yep, no matter how Paragon Shep I am in ME 2, I have to take the wrench thingy to the Batarian before we go and rescue Garrus.  It just doesn't make sense to take the guy out when you have the chance.  That's pretty much my renegade move for the game

[Harle Cerulean]

Fleshdress wrote...

I have come to find a lot of Anders fans disregard that scene, saying it is very OOC for Anders, and I actually agree, no one who advocates freedom would give someone up as a slave. But I guess the writers get to decide whats in charcter at the end of the day so... Maybe they want to make it clear just how blinde that hatred had become over the years. 

I have issues woth people saying that a scene which is part of the canon is out of character for said character.  No, it's not.  He does it; therefore it is in character.  The point of it is that he is that hypocritical, he does hate Fenris that much, and he cares that little for anything outside of his Cause.

It's not a scene from a fanfic.  It's a scene from canon.  Canon dictates what is IC and what is OOC, not fan perception.  I struggle to understand how Fenris could fall in love with a slavery-supporting bloodmage Hawke who makes a powergrab for Kirkwall's throne, but even though I don't understand, I still acknowledge that it's IC, because canon says so.

Edit: Adding, what seems OOC to me about that scene, and which I struggle to understand some sort of reason for beyond game mechanics, is why Aveline, Sebastian, Isabela, possibly Merrill will just let Hawke do it.  Aveline and Sebastian are both Fenris' good friends; Isabela is a friend or even a lover.  Merrill is Dalish and seeing another elf made into a slave should be something she protests greatly.  But instead, they simply all make some token protest and get grumpy with Hawke (+rivalry), but no one tries to stop it.  

Additionally Aveline, as Captain of the Guard, has a duty to stop illegal activities, and slavery?  Illegal.  She's willing to push an already angry Arishok over the justified murder of a guardsman; she's not willing to step in on a friend's behalf when another friend sells him into slavery?  This is what I would find to be more OOC than Anders' reaction - but again, it happens, so it's IC, I just have to figure out how.  Not pretend it isn't.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 07 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[dangereusegirl]

Masako52 wrote...
You may not see Fenris as bisexual, but he IS bisexual. Or, you could say, Hawke-sexual. Then again, I'm actually the opposite. The thought of Fenris with a girl is so wrong to me, like, it doesn't make any sense in my head. Fenris is so perfect with m!Hawke, imo, but with f!Hawke it just seems... urgh, I dunno how to explain it. I don't think I could personally ever romance Fenris with Lady Hawke though. Even if both Hawkes are essentially the same person sans what's between their legs, Fenris resonates far more with m!Hawke to me.

I know he is, and even point that out in my post. 

I like how you say he's Hawke-sexual, because that works for me. I play a bisexual wizard on a Harry Potter RPG site, and while he's primarily interested in girls, he ends up marrying a guy that he used to hate when they were younger. The way I play that character is just as Anders puts it when talking to male Hawke: he sees the person, not necessarily whether they're male or female. And if thats how you see Fenris and Hawke, then more power to you.

And I'm loving the fenart right now. Makes me wish I could draw even halfway decently.

[Arquen]

I have to agree Harle. Basically the scene was written in character, even though it seems contrary to people's perception of what a character should or should not do. People tend to twist RPG characters to be what they think they should be instead of what they are. So yeah I don't think you can just throw out a scene because you don't agree. Instead try to see what they were doing with the characters in that scene.

As far as people not reacting... it angers me so that Isabela or Aveline wouldn't be like "I can't let you do this!" Yet even aveline says in her line "some things im surprised I do." She follows hawke out of loyalty and respect and appreciation. Her soldier mentality allows for chain of command. When she is with hawke she acknowledged hawke as a leader and follows. Isabela is more selfish I think. She probably would be the one who would sneak off and go find him, but she wouldn't blatently make it obvious that she cares so much for others. Still, that angers me. Grow a spine izzy.. stick up for someone you care about or lose them... *sigh* yet I think isabela might reflect on it later, but I doubt she would risk herself against hawke and co. She is much more passive when it comes to decisions and hawke than even aveline or varric.

[Masako52]

Fleshdress wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

I like Fenders, but I agree that in game you really have to stretch to see it. I like messed up, love/hate relationships. Though unfortunately, Anders and Fenris really kick on the hate side, but I am not adverse to throwing in some angsty sexual attraction there. I mean, they have sooo much in common. They both glow, for one. Seems like enough of a basis for a relationship to me. Plus I like theories about sexy lyrium attraction. Nothing fluffy or domestic though, of course. But I don't think there's anything wrong with reading between lines and creating relationships as long as you don't blatantly disregard canon.

 I see no way of pairing them without making it either non-con on one of their parts because there is no attraction between them. The don't like, respect or even regard one another unless it is to spit and snarl. The only even slightly civil interaction you get from them is when Fenris tells Anders that he should notice his limitations, and that he wasn't accusing, he was pointing out, and even that is layerd with disdain. I see no way of pairing them up without disregarding canon. I also can't see the relationship because a lot of what I have read seems to be used as a way to redeem one or both characters from aspects of their personality so it isn't just plot that has to be tossed, it's the entire character build. 

I don't think anyone for Fenders is ever arguing that they have a lot of animosity between them. The idea of hate!relationships is that hatred also induces passion, and passion can be sexual. It's worth noting that they have a couple of civil conversations in the Legacy DLC too, in party banter, but anyway. But it comes down to how you want to interpret their relationship and that's fine. But I'll read a fanfic or enjoy fanart of them together that well illustrates the tension between them, that also works sexual tension between them. Take it or leave it, I guess, but I think they could be a really interesting pair in fanfic if well explained. Or in an alternate setting - I've read a Fenders fic that takes place when Anders and Fenris are in their teens, in Tevinter, it's an AU but they keep their personalities. And I've read some that take place post-game with reconciling their differences. Of course, that's the easiest route to take, but I'm personally more interested in ways to work it out during the events of the game.

I really don't think it'd have to be non-con at all. In fact, I find it difficult to imagine either of them raping the other..

Anyway. Point being, if it's not your thing, that's fine, but some of us see the potential and like to fill in blanks accordingly.

[Sepewrath]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
Edit: Adding, what seems OOC to me about that scene, and which I struggle to understand some sort of reason for beyond game mechanics, is why Aveline, Sebastian, Isabela, possibly Merrill will just let Hawke do it.  Aveline and Sebastian are both Fenris' good friends; Isabela is a friend or even a lover.  Merrill is Dalish and seeing another elf made into a slave should be something she protests greatly.  But instead, they simply all make some token protest and get grumpy with Hawke (+rivalry), but no one tries to stop it. 

Well that's just the constraints of gameplay, in say a book, it probably wouldn't have gone down like that. But in a game, their not going to let Hawke kill their whole party over a single scene. In a book, Hawke and Fenris are likely there alone, so no one is around to object. They can throw a fit afterward, but they wouldn't have been there at the time.

Though I have to say I don't think Merrill would put up much of a fight, Fenris treats her like garbage and the Dalish for all their bluster about Elves, it really only applies to their clan and those who seek out their clan. I don't think the Dalish would actively go after an Tevinter magister to save an Elf not of their clan.

[Arquen]

Merrill just appreciates life. She doesn't care what people do, she doesn't want bad things to happen to anyone. It is part of her naive charm. She wouldn't jump in and be like stop, but she is going to be like "this is wrong. Do not want!" Regardless of how fenris treats her. She always opts for you to spare Anders even though he treats her badly too. She is passive to hawke and defers all decisions, but she does speak up.

Also... civil conversations = implied underlying sexual tension? W.T.F. that is just stretching for justifications which I find most fenders stories have to in order to make it fit. Your forcing pieces together for the core reason of having 2 passionate male characters together passionately.

Fenris has passionate anger
Anders has passionate conviction

They are adults. They can tolerate each others presence because of hawke. Anything else is trying to make stuff up that isn't canon and wasn't even implied except in someones mind. It just seems that lately you take any 2 people, regardless of their relationship in canon and make up some bs to have them sex up eachother. Oh they made eye contact. They fought together. One helped the other up. They shared a laugh. I mean there is just waaay to much reading into nothing for my logical analytical brain. Hate it, like it, love it.. who cares. Just don't make more out of it than what it is.

[Dr. Doctor]

The Reason Why The Party Did Nothing:

The Hanged Man

Isabela: (whispering) Shouldn't we be doing something? Hawke's just handing Fenris over to that Magister.

Varric: Don't worry Rivaini, I'm sure this is just a part of some elaborate scheme to free the elf for good.

Isabela: I hope you're right.

Weeks Later

Varric: Hey Hawke, were you planning to spring Tevinter from wherever that Magister took him?

Hawke: Why? I got paid whatever happens to Fenris now isn't any of my concern.

Isabela: An 'elaborate scheme to free the elf for good'?

Varric: Alright then, perhaps I misjudged a little.

[Masako52]

Arquen wrote...

Also... civil conversations = implied underlying sexual tension? W.T.F. that is just stretching for justifications which I find most fenders stories have to in order to make it fit. Your forcing pieces together for the core reason of having 2 passionate male characters together passionately.

Fenris has passionate anger
Anders has passionate conviction

They are adults. They can tolerate each others presence because of hawke. Anything else is trying to make stuff up that isn't canon and wasn't even implied except in someones mind. It just seems that lately you take any 2 people, regardless of their relationship in canon and make up some bs to have them sex up eachother. Oh they made eye contact. They fought together. One helped the other up. They shared a laugh. I mean there is just waaay to much reading into nothing for my logical analytical brain. Hate it, like it, love it.. who cares. Just don't make more out of it than what it is.

Uh, I never said civil conversations = sexual tension? Where are you getting that from? You made a statement that they only had one civil conversation. I said that wasn't true. They have several dialogues that are normal. We also know they play cards together. So in party banter, we do see a lot of tension and hatred. But we also know they can get along with each other. They don't hate each other to the point where they can't be in one another's company.

And wow, you're really missing the point. NO ONE is arguing that Fenris/Anders exists in canon and they are so obviously in love. HOWEVER, fans absolutely have the right to interpret the game however they want to. And if they want to interpret "that look" as sexual tension, guess what? It doesn't make it wrong. Because... here's the kicker... canon also doesn't state that Fenris and Anders never had sex. They very likely did not ever get sexual intimate, but that's not a canon fact. Canon is only the dialogue that exists in the game, so frankly, a lot of things aren't "canon" even if a lot of fans believe them to be true.

People can make it out to be whatever they want to be. People have have fun with romance stories, and it's nothing to get defensive about. Fenris/Anders is a legimate pairing and has a relatively big fanbase. Obviously, fans are seeing something that you aren't. And it's just a game, one that fans like to use their imagination with. They're not "wrong" for doing so. 

Now, I would agree that Fenders fans would be wrong if they stated that Fenris and Anders are clearly in love in canon. And I would argue against any interpretation that was severely out of character (Fenris and Anders go out to pick flowers and choose drapes to match the furniture or something). But if a fan like Fenris and Anders having hate!sex, seriously. Cut them a little slack and let them enjoy themselves. After all. It is totally hot. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Does anyone know where the heck I found this weird adorable story where M!Hawke and Fenris meet in a coffee shop? I assumed it was some thread on these boards but... if it wasn't the Fenris thread, where the hell was it? Also, who am I? How did I get here? These aren't my pants! They're some kind of mystery pants.

[Sealy]

I made the comment about the one civil convo, not Arquen. And it is the only civil convo they have, if you can even call that civil, their banter in Legacy is just more sniping at one another. (So far, I haven't played a ton yet.) And it was just to point out that they don't seem to be capable of getting along, and just because they share friends doesn't mean they themselves can interact on a level of acceptance. My point was that they are both indifferant to eachother, beyond hatred, I do not see the passion toward the other required to hook them up.

Harle, I didn't mean it was OOC and said that obviously the writers were proving just how out of hand that hatred had grown, I agree that if it happens in game it is canon. But, just like it seems ooc for the companions to only offer token protests when you give up Fen, it also seems out ooc for Anders to be pro-slavery. I didn't mean it should be disregarded, though I can understand why Anders fans might want to. It is a very low point in the game for him.

[Sealy]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Does anyone know where the heck I found this weird adorable story where M!Hawke and Fenris meet in a coffee shop? I assumed it was some thread on these boards but... if it wasn't the Fenris thread, where the hell was it? Also, who am I? How did I get here? These aren't my pants! They're some kind of mystery pants.

I don't know where it is posted on here but I LOVE that fic, it is so simple and so delicious. To answer the question I can, you are CulturalGeekGirl, your nametag says it. You got here because the pull of Fenris is inescapable and those are THE pants, be proud, they choose the wearer, the wearer doesn't choose them.

Oh my sweet baby jesus, this conversation appears to be a thread eating monster. We need a new topic pronto. My curiosity is satisfied. Matter of taste, blah blah, it appears I was mistaken and most people who like Fenders don't even see the relationship happening outside their *cough*twisted*cough* brains anyways.

Hmmm, What do people think of Fenris keeping his name? In my opinion, if I had a name given to me by a man I hated I think I would appreciate using the one I had before. Do you think he ever attepts to change his name or go back to Leto? I have never really understood the convo he has with Aveline about hating her name, where she asks about him changing his and he says fair point.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 07 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Also, here's my take on the whole Anders approves of giving Fenris over thing: by that point in the game, Anders pretty much thinks the sun shines out of Hawke's... something. He doesn't disapprove if Hawke fails to give Fenris to Danarius. He doesn't even suggest it or make a joke about it if Hawke doesn't initiate it. You would absolutely never know that Anders approves of it unless Hawke gets the ball rolling. You don't even know if Anders would consider it without Hawke suggesting it first. Personally, I don't think he would.

By act three, what Anders thinks is right or wrong is pretty heavily influenced by what Hawke thinks is right or wrong. Anders may indeed often think "man, it would be nice if Fenris wasn't around anymore," but I think he would feel bad about that most of the time, in the same way that Fenris refuses to turn in Anders and Merril when Seb makes the suggestion, indicating that he would only approve of doing such a thing if Hawke agreed. In this case, Anders isn't just expressing his own opinion... he's agreeing with a decision Hawke has just made... Hawke, who he loves and respects above all other people.

Anders only approves of giving Fenris up if Hawke brings it up. In that case someone who Anders sees as a moral authority is validating Anders' more negative impulses. I think that if Hawke said to Fenris "hey, let's go turn Anders and Merril in to the Knight Commander and then go get waffles" there would be a substantial chance that Fenris would approve, and not just out of a love of syrup.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 août 2011 - 06:22 .