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[UrsulaCousland]

 OK, I missed some cool stuff overnight! 

You guys gave me an idea for a second prompt fill. And, since I suspect this will go ToP, I'll post art in the second post if that happens.

Prompt: Memory (take 2)


The door to Anders’ clinic was not a typical place to see Hawke, Fenris, and Varric waiting, but the circumstances were also unusual. Varric was just being Varric; he had encountered them taking Isabela to the clinic and followed along; this unlikely crew, with Isabela sporting a spectacular black eye and swollen cheek, was far too tempting for Varric to ignore. 

“So, Hawke, Elf, there’s a story here. What’s going on?”

Fenris grinned at Hawke, because he knew the story and was still enjoying the fact that she’d felt that strongly. Even if it meant Aniya felt vaguely guilty, he was still so relieved that they’d reconciled that the whole incident satisfied him far more than it should have.

Hawke’s face was a story in conflicting emotions as she considered Varric’s question. She looked a little embarrassed, but there was also aggrieved satisfaction and some of her fierce pride as well. She fixed Varric with a pointed look. She was blushing fiercely. 

“I’ll tell you because I want you to have my version before you have Isabela’s. Maker only knows what she’ll tell you. And if this ends up in something like Hard in Hightown, you’re next.” She narrowed her eyes at him, and Varric gave her a bland look. “Madam, you wound me!” 

“I will…” 
*********************************************************************************
“Haven’t you ever wanted to hit me, even a little?”

“Yes!” Anders and Fenris had said in unison. 

Isabella laughed. “Wow, you two can agree on something!” Then she turned back to Aniya. “He has to believe you,
or this whole thing is worthless and Castillon will bail.” 

Hawke nodded grimly, as she proceeded forward to knock assertively on the door. 
*********************************************************************************
Despite what Isabela had warned all of them, both Fenris and Anders were lingering close enough to the door to follow what was happening in case they needed to intervene. Fenris was following part of the act. He shook his head, and muttered, “They won’t buy it, Hawke…”  

Then, Isabela had boasted of her flirtation with Fenris three years ago. Nothing had come of it, and Aniya knew that, but he guessed her gut reaction. 


Never mind. 

He was right. He heard Aniya’s hissed curse, and the ringing crack of fist meeting face was unmistakable, as was the thud of a body hitting the floor. Anders heard it too, and he winced. “That’ll leave a mark,” he muttered. When they’d dragged Isabela out of the room, she was still out cold, and developing a spectacular black eye. Fenris was reminded of Aveline’s claim that Hawke had dropped a Qunari with one punch once. He’d been dubious, but now he completely believed it.  

Later, after Hawke had refused to let Isabela bribe Castillion, Isabela had made quite a sight tearing into Hawke with that black eye and a clear mark of the Hawke signet on her face.  *********************************************************************************
“And then she tried to bribe Castillion with the chance to run his slaving operation just to get a ship?! What was she thinking?” Varric shook his head. “I’m not sure I believe…ok, yes I do.” He shook his head. “And why wasn’t I invited to that little party?”  

Hawke drew a breath to answer, but the clinic door opened and Isabela emerged, her beautiful face restored to normalcy.  She went straight to Hawke and addressed her with firm, if vaguely chastened, conviction. 

“The Hanged Man. Later. We need to talk.” As Aniya took a breath, she continued. “And don’t you dare apologize.” 

Isabela then peered at Fenris and Varric. “What are you two looking at?

ETA: Of course, ToP. Sorry for the length of the post, but this needed to go on too.  by ~Darla-Illara

 

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 07 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[SurrealSadi]

Ursula, that's GREAT!!!!!!! If I wasn't so concerned about my dad, I'd have been dying with laughter.

[Annarl]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

I have come to find a lot of Anders fans disregard that scene, saying it is very OOC for Anders, and I actually agree, no one who advocates freedom would give someone up as a slave. But I guess the writers get to decide whats in charcter at the end of the day so... Maybe they want to make it clear just how blinde that hatred had become over the years. 

I have issues woth people saying that a scene which is part of the canon is out of character for said character.  No, it's not.  He does it; therefore it is in character.  The point of it is that he is that hypocritical, he does hate Fenris that much, and he cares that little for anything outside of his Cause.

It's not a scene from a fanfic.  It's a scene from canon.  Canon dictates what is IC and what is OOC, not fan perception.  I struggle to understand how Fenris could fall in love with a slavery-supporting bloodmage Hawke who makes a powergrab for Kirkwall's throne, but even though I don't understand, I still acknowledge that it's IC, because canon says so.

Edit: Adding, what seems OOC to me about that scene, and which I struggle to understand some sort of reason for beyond game mechanics, is why Aveline, Sebastian, Isabela, possibly Merrill will just let Hawke do it.  Aveline and Sebastian are both Fenris' good friends; Isabela is a friend or even a lover.  Merrill is Dalish and seeing another elf made into a slave should be something she protests greatly.  But instead, they simply all make some token protest and get grumpy with Hawke (+rivalry), but no one tries to stop it.  

Additionally Aveline, as Captain of the Guard, has a duty to stop illegal activities, and slavery?  Illegal.  She's willing to push an already angry Arishok over the justified murder of a guardsman; she's not willing to step in on a friend's behalf when another friend sells him into slavery?  This is what I would find to be more OOC than Anders' reaction - but again, it happens, so it's IC, I just have to figure out how.  Not pretend it isn't.

Your post is true...well to me.  I have always wondered at how not one of the companions react to selling Fenris. They are standing there and just let you do it.  Like having Alistair killed in DAO (and I can see why in some playthroughs a player would choose too), I always thought Wynne should say something to the Warden. Even if its just to ask why. Why Wynne, because she seems to be the closest to him, the others are more neutral (in my opinion).  It is a game mechanic, to give the player choice,  but it's an odd one.  It doesn't seem right. 

Modifié par omearaee, 07 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[Sinaxi]

omearaee wrote...
Your post is true...well to me.  I have always wondered at how not one of the companions react to selling Fenris. They are standing there and just let you do it.  Like having Alistair killed in DAO (and I can see why in some playthroughs a player would choose too), I always thought Wynne should say something to the Warden. Even if its just to ask why. Why Wynne, because she seems to be the closest to him, the others are more neutral (in my opinion).  It is a game mechanic, to give the player choice,  but it's an odd one.  It doesn't seem right.

Honestly, yes. I would have to just chalk that up to game mechanics. It's stupid, but that's really what I think it is. You could argue that while they don't agree with it they don't really think it's their place to step in or something since pretty much Hawke recruited Fenris as a companion, Hawke is the one choosing to help Fenris with his problems, and they are just along for the ride.

But that still doesn't make sense at all, since they will get upset in endgame if they aren't at full friendship/rivalry with Hawke's decision depending on which way they go. So yes, I am going to chalk that up to the game not wanting your companions to attack you or something. While it is "canon" you have to also realize that it is still a video game, and when the characters don't really do anything in response to a decision it is pretty much because its a "player choice" or wtfever. But yes, it is stupid. It can be rationalized somewhat, but barely.
--------------
However, people who say it's OOC for Anders to say that about Fenris are definitely incorrect. He did say it, it is in character. Even if I didn't believe that everything they say is in character for them or something of that accord, I would still argue that it makes total sense for him to say that and he's my favorite character lol. I could go into why, but this has been covered in the Anders thread like 5 times already I think haha. He doesn't like Fenris, it has nothing to even do with slavery at that point. It's Anders being Anders when he doesn't like someone. I feel like it's one of those things where Anders is sitting there basically saying this in his head "Wow. How great would it be to not have to deal with that ******?" And then when Hawke ACTUALLY mentions it he is all "WAIT?..I thought *I* was the only one thinking that?" And he is like suddenly happy. To me, the first time I heard him say that line I couldn't help but laugh - because it is just one of those things that is almost too shocking to hear someone say that it causes me to laugh. That, and, the tone in his voice reminds me also of someone saying something that is like half a joke, but not really a joke at all. That's exactly how that scene has always come across to me.

And like others have said, I have never gotten the impression that Anders even knows that Fenris has no memories...that, and even if he did know...knowing Anders he just totally forgot/didn't care and is like "oh, wtf. Your sister is a mage. Screw you Fenris, no wonder you hate me." I mean...it's just Anders. He sees many things in black and white at times. His emotions are either to one extreme or the other, and Fenris and him have never liked each other at all. Anders isn't supposed to always make sense. His thought processing is not clear about a lot of things that he feels strongly about which is generally why people should remember he is written like a bipolar character. When it comes to Fenris he throws rationality out the window and just doesn't give a damn anymore. I know SurelyForth even commented on this in the Anders thread and said even before the merging, in Awakening Anders just didn't like people if he didn't like them. If he had low approval with the Warden and you clicked on him he was like "Just die already." Anders either likes you, or he doesn't. Has nothing to do with slavery because why should he give a damn about what happens to Fenris when Fenris doesn't give a damn about what happens to him?

The only thing I don't like is when Fenris fans act like Fenris is any different. He might not come across as spiteful, but he is. Both of them can be in certain situations. He would be quite happy if Hawke went and deposited Anders at the Circle which to Anders is also slavery. His whole mission in life is one of revenge. So I don't really see why it's something either side gets upset about. They are both total jackasses to each other despite people saying they aren't.

I just completely disagree about the whole "Oh, he was just telling Anders his limitations after Ella died" while that is essentially true, he does it in a rude/mocking way as if it is his place to comment on Anders life. It would be like if Anders knew about Fenris' past and brought up how Fenris went ahead and slaughtered all the Fog Warriors who helped him because his master "told him to". As if you need to be an abomination to kill people you wish to help. They are both ridiculously hypocritical concerning each other. They aren't friends, and Anders doesn't want his advice. He wants Hawke's advice. But both of them do that to each other, they get in each other's business and constantly look for ways to screw around with one another.

The entire argument has to do with bias, what your feelings on Mages are and because people that are biased
to Fenris and don't like Anders are all "well Fenris was right and Anders was just wrong so blah blah. Fenris is right, Anders shouldn't have merged with Justice." Well, okay. That's your opinion. That is also Fenris' opinion. At the time Anders thought what he was doing was right, this person was his friend and he wanted to change the world with his friend.

Let's not forget that the whole thing that happened to Fenris, his markings, pretty much all that was his OWN doing. So uh, I suppose I could go around saying "damn your logic Fenris, getting lyrium markings etched into your skin. Boy, you sure are smart. Constantly whining about something you did to yourself." But he was doing it in hopes of doing something good, freeing his mother and sister. How is that, at its core, ANY different than what Anders tried to do? I just don't get why it's such a big deal. They hate each other, and they both act pretty much the same way about it.

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 11:56 .

[Sepewrath]

Hawke needs to take some lessons on punching women in the face from Shepard

[UrsulaCousland]

@Sepewrath - working on it - I start Mass Effect 1 soon!

[Annarl]

Tidra, interesting post. :happy: I have always seen Anders and Fenris as oil and water, never mixing or totally incompatible. I accept they'll never be friends, heck they would turn on each other in minute if it weren't for Hawke. It's one of the reasons I can't see the whole Fenders thing.

As for Anders' comment about selling Fenris, I had put that down to Anders becoming more extreme (as the Acts go by) as it seems Justice takes over more of his person. Or should I say that's how I read it. Anders now (by Act 3) has no room for compromise in his crusade and Fenris could potentially stand in the way of that. So the faster he's gone the better, not that Anders wished it on Fenris. But I maybe the only person who saw it that way.

I don't see either as spiteful as in malicious, malevolent, venomous. It isn't like Anders suggests selling Fenris. Or Fenris turns Anders in to the templars. Either would be a spiteful move (in my opinion). Both are angry at different sides of the same coin, the mage issue. Which is why they can't get along. They will snipe at each other but for Hawke they will tolerant each other in small doses.

I was just surprised that more of the companions don't question Hawke if you choose to sell him.  That seemed wrong to me.

Modifié par omearaee, 07 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[UrsulaCousland]

@SurrealSadi (sorry Phone posting) - I hope all's well with him, and thanks!

[Sealy]

Sepewrath wrote...

Hawke needs to take some lessons on punching women in the face from Shepard

I would accept the lack of punching if they would give me more chances too murderknife people. Sister Petrice would go down so fast. *daydreams*

[Gespenst]

Jumping in late here (but I'm not reading 1715 pages, I'm sure you understand)

Fenris, you are sooo hot, but sooooo annoying.

If he said "all mages must die" to my mage Hawke I'd probably agree as long as he really growled it out. It's the voice that gets me...

[Arquen]

Okay.. tidra... what? Fenris doesn't come across as spiteful but he is? Fenris is telling the truth after ella but you disagree?

I get your thought process on Anders, but what I don't like is when Anders fans try to make Fenris' dialogues and actions towards Anders just as condemning, rude, and tactless. There is nothing Fenris does or says that is on the same level as what Anders says in that scene. Speculate on what Fenris would say if the option were to send Anders over all you want, but it doesn't exist in game while Anders statement does.

Fenris says that his limitation statement "was not a condemnation." He was not being spiteful to Anders then. To Anders afterwards he mocks saying "what was it you said..." but again his tone is laced with mock and venom because Anders continues to prove to Fenris that being an abomination isn't a good thing. "So you see yourself as harmless then?"

As for the markings... just... no. You can't assume he knew what he was buying. If anything the only thing he knew was that he had a chance to free his family. Anders' merger with Justice is shrouded in mystery as to the exact reason but he accepted the consequences of that merger and understood at least in theory what would/could happen. Danarius had no reason to reveal the ritual to Fenris. The way I see it Danarius offered a boon, but had no reason to tell Fenris about the ritual. He did it to himself? His suffering the ritual, memory loss and as a slave was his own doing? No I don't agree at all. His whining about his markings? Sorry don't see whining either.

Yes his whole point is vengeance, and him and Anders share that, but when it comes to that dialogue Fenris has no equivalent to Anders. The worst he says is "he wants to die. Kill him and be done with it." Yet at that point he is not wrong. He is not spiteful, he is stating what he sees. He is being blunt logical Fenris. He doesn't like Anders but he isn't like "feed him to Meredith and let her hang him as an example to other mages." Which is pretty much on par with Anders approving giving him back. Anders is also being contradictory to his own core belief. That being he is approving of slavery. Fenris never would approve of slavery or magisters.

[ReiSilver]

I tend to accept Fenris being a prickly un-subtle jerk more then Anders doing the same because of their background. I know Anders could do better, or that he's smarter then that. It's also that Ander's whole character in DA2 is about human rights and freedom, so being happy about someone being back stabbed into slavery seems far more hypocritical when we know Fenris doesn't trust 99% of mages to control themselves, so the opposite; agreeing with selling Anders out, were it an option, doesn't go against any part of Fenris' character.

It's unfortunate that Fenris doesn't get proved wrong all that often since he goes from Tevinter to Kirkwall which may as well be the hellmouth/Silent Hill of Thedas, where everyone's one bad day away from going coo-coo for coca puffs and painting the streets in blood with the help of demons and blood magic. There are less opportunities for him to see 'good' strong mages outside of MageHawke (I don't count Bethany since she has a guilt complex about being the only apostate in the family after Malcom's death so doesn't argue with Fenris all that strongly) or Just interact with Mages that aren't abominations or blood mages on top of everything else.

I don't object to Anders' line when giving Fenris to Danarius so much as that he doesn't add a "Wait, I thought we were just messing with the Jerk?" as it stands it just leaves me thinking everything I loved about Awakening Anders has been lost, consumed by Janders, and that's depressing.

I've been doing another run through and had Fenris and Anders in the same party a lot for act 1 and heard a lot more of their banter. So much of it makes me want to put my head in my hands, every time Anders tries to make a point and does it horribly. Like the "Well maybe they should make slaves tranquil" line... just, ugh Anders, Fenris is not going to take that the way you want him to...  You are not helping my MageHawke in trying to convince him not all mages are sadistic SOBs.

I've seen one really good fan fic revolving around Fenris and Anders and getting the characters to a point where Fenders could be an option (it takes the length of two different stories; one adventure with only the two of them to solve things and one magically-handcuffed-together story). It's called Volutions and starts with Nautilus then Grotesquerie for those interested

[Arquen]

This is my favorite sum up of Fenris' statements--- Jerkass has a point. He ALWAYS has a point. Most of the time it is a point that makes you challenge your own decisions in game. He is a balance not just to Anders but to Hawke too.

[Sinaxi]

Arquen wrote...

Okay.. tidra... what? Fenris doesn't come across as spiteful but he is? Fenris is telling the truth after ella but you disagree?

I get your thought process on Anders, but what I don't like is when Anders fans try to make Fenris' dialogues and actions towards Anders just as condemning, rude, and tactless. There is nothing Fenris does or says that is on the same level as what Anders says in that scene. Speculate on what Fenris would say if the option were to send Anders over all you want, but it doesn't exist in game while Anders statement does.

Fenris says that his limitation statement "was not a condemnation." He was not being spiteful to Anders then. To Anders afterwards he mocks saying "what was it you said..." but again his tone is laced with mock and venom because Anders continues to prove to Fenris that being an abomination isn't a good thing. "So you see yourself as harmless then?"

As for the markings... just... no. You can't assume he knew what he was buying. If anything the only thing he knew was that he had a chance to free his family. Anders' merger with Justice is shrouded in mystery as to the exact reason but he accepted the consequences of that merger and understood at least in theory what would/could happen. Danarius had no reason to reveal the ritual to Fenris. The way I see it Danarius offered a boon, but had no reason to tell Fenris about the ritual. He did it to himself? His suffering the ritual, memory loss and as a slave was his own doing? No I don't agree at all. His whining about his markings? Sorry don't see whining either.

Yes his whole point is vengeance, and him and Anders share that, but when it comes to that dialogue Fenris has no equivalent to Anders. The worst he says is "he wants to die. Kill him and be done with it." Yet at that point he is not wrong. He is not spiteful, he is stating what he sees. He is being blunt logical Fenris. He doesn't like Anders but he isn't like "feed him to Meredith and let her hang him as an example to other mages." Which is pretty much on par with Anders approving giving him back. Anders is also being contradictory to his own core belief. That being he is approving of slavery. Fenris never would approve of slavery or magisters.

Do you not realize that Fenris' beliefs in themself are hypocritical as well? "He would never approve of slavery or magisters" Okay. Well, the mages in Kirkwall are not "Magisters" as you so put it, and he approves of keeping them locked up. I understand why he would feel that way about Mages given his situation, but to say that he would never approve of slavery is...sort of incorrect since Mages are technically slaves. But you will probably disagree with my line of reasoning.

Wait, so I'm not supposed to assume based on what his sister clearly said in the game about wanting the markings is correct? Okay. Let's see.

Fenris: I never wanted these filthy markings, Danarius. But I won't let you kill me to get them.

That is the only thing Fenris specifically refers to in the entire scene about "not wanting". In fact, right after he says it..Danarius makes a foreshadowing remark:

Danarius: Oh, how little you know my pet. (Inferring that Fenris DID indeed ask for these markings)

Then when you spare Varania, she goes on to say....

"You said you didn't ask for this. But that's not true. You wanted it. You competed for it, when you won you used the boon to have mother and I freed."
----
Fenris: You heard what Varania said. I wanted these, I fought for them. I feel unclean, like this magic is not only etched into my skin but has also stained my soul.

Uh. Okay? Riiiight. We will have to agree to disagree on that I suppose.

I never said he asked for slavery. The big deal about Fenris is his markings, and that is why Danarius wants him back so badly. I never said he knew he was signing up for a ritual that would end up erasing his memory or he wanted to become a slave.... but in my opinion the scene pretty much dictates that he knew he was going to be getting those markings in some way shape or form after winning the tournament. He might have known how, he might not have. Most likely he didn't know how excruciatingly painful it would be or that he was going to lose his memory. That doesn't change the fact that he still competed for them.
Also, my paraphrasing about his "whining" was meant to be sarcastic and serve as an example comparing what you said about Anders in a previous post and how Fenris is oh-so logical about his merging with Justice.

By saying someone doesn't come across as spiteful simply means that while they go about wording it in a better way or a less obvious way, it doesn't mean the feeling behind those words are not spiteful. That was my point.

And um, yes. It is possible for me to say that Fenris was essentially telling the truth about Ella...since the way I worded it was like this:

I just completely disagree about the whole "Oh, he was just telling Anders his limitations after Ella died" while that is essentially true, he does it in a rude/mocking way as if it is his place to comment on Anders life.

I wanted to clarify that I was not disagreeing that Fenris even said that or something, which is what I meant by "yes that is true". But that instead I disagreed with him even commenting on it or how he said it. Which is what I said in my post.

Edit - In no way was that post that you replied to supposed to be turned into some like argument or something of another about Anders and Fenris. Since I get the impression that is how you are taking it. I frequently stated in the post that they both do things/say things that I personally find to be around the same level. Not that they as characters are like evil spiteful people because I don't think either one of them really is, but I do believe that they let a worse side of themselves out when they are around one another.

In the long run I think they are both great characters that have done things in their past/present/future (depending where you are at in the game) that are not in any way black and white. They have both done terrible things, but I still stand by what I said that both Fenris and Anders did something they clearly did not know the repercussions of in the hopes of achieving a good thing. For Fenris it was freedom for his family, for Anders it was freedom for Mages.

Modifié par Tidra, 08 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[Arquen]

Perhaps you should look more into hypocrit a bit more. That being a hypocrit is someone who acts in contradiction to their stated beliefs or feelings. Fenris believes "free mages will make themselves magisters." Therefore, a system like the circle must exist. So, no I don't think his core beliefs are hypocritical at all. Neither are anders' core beliefs.

In fact I find way more examples of Anders being a hypocrit than Fenris. He isnt a blind supporter of the circle or the templars he simply believes something like the circle Must exist. My favorite thing to do is take both Anders and Fenris to the gallows the first time and watch them argue it out. Fenris never says the circle is right or the templars are right he says that Tevinter offers no solution. Free mages offer no solution... only a worse society.

As for the markings I doubt anyone volunteers for a ritual (the only way to get the markings) that causes massive trauma and pain. Yes he competed for them, but what did he really know about them? Surely not what he got. While Anders knew Justice, knew about spirit mergers and Knew what he was getting into. Albeit he may not have known the full extent. He was aware of the consequences moreso than Fenris would have been. So yeah if you think Fenris was buddies with Danarius and said "a ritual that will give me markings and free my family!" Then we will agree to disagree.

Also posting these things from my phone and at work with constant interruptions so this will be fractured and incomplete somewhat.

[Ryzaki]

Become a slave?

Huh? Since when was Fenris a free child? The boon makes it sound like they were ALL originally slaves. Fenris simply wanted his mom and sis out of slavery. He didn't give up his freedom. He never had any to give up.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 04:40 .

[Sinaxi]

Arquen wrote...

Perhaps you should look more into hypocrit a bit more. That being a hypocrit is someone who acts in contradiction to their stated beliefs or feelings. Fenris believes "free mages will make themselves magisters." Therefore, a system like the circle must exist. So, no I don't think his core beliefs are hypocritical at all. Neither are anders' core beliefs.

In fact I find way more examples of Anders being a hypocrit than Fenris. He isnt a blind supporter of the circle or the templars he simply believes something like the circle Must exist. My favorite thing to do is take both Anders and Fenris to the gallows the first time and watch them argue it out. Fenris never says the circle is right or the templars are right he says that Tevinter offers no solution. Free mages offer no solution... only a worse society.

As for the markings I doubt anyone volunteers for a ritual (the only way to get the markings) that causes massive trauma and pain. Yes he competed for them, but what did he really know about them? Surely not what he got. While Anders knew Justice, knew about spirit mergers and Knew what he was getting into. Albeit he may not have known the full extent. He was aware of the consequences moreso than Fenris would have been. So yeah if you think Fenris was buddies with Danarius and said "a ritual that will give me markings and free my family!" Then we will agree to disagree.

Also posting these things from my phone and at work with constant interruptions so this will be fractured and incomplete somewhat.

So, now you admit that Fenris knew he was competing for his markings? Also, in my post I said...which maybe you didn't see since I edited it a while ago ago to clarify this.

I never said he knew he was signing up for a ritual that would end up
erasing his memory or he wanted to become a slave.... but in my opinion
the scene pretty much dictates that he knew he was going to be getting
those markings in some way shape or form after winning the tournament.
He might have known how, he might not have. Most likely he didn't know
how excruciatingly painful it would be or that he was going to lose his
memory. That doesn't change the fact that he still competed for them.

I never said Fenris signed up for slavery (since he was already a slave) nor did I say he "signed up for the ritual." All I said was that he might have known about it, but most likely he didn't. I have to leave it as a question because we will never know. However, like I said, the scene dictates that he knew he was at least getting the markings in some way shape or form. So whether he knew about the ritual or not it doesn't really matter. He knew about the markings, therefore nothing changes the fact that he competed to get them.

Except Fenris believes several things, as all people do, and does not JUST believe that Mages will make themselves Magisters. He also believes that slavery is wrong. You don't need to tell me the definition of hypocrisy. He says slavery is wrong, but condones the circle. So, are Mages just so dangerous in his eyes and therefore less deserving of human rights? Because apparently they deserve to be enslaved. I suppose he just finds his view of "mages will make themselves Magisters" more important than the whole "Slavery is wrong" view. Which is fine, but regardless, there is even a point in the Last Straw where you can appeal to him about his views on slavery and actually SHOW him that he is contradicting his own views of slavery. Which, as you just said, you agree is the definition of hypocrisy.

At that point he can either agree to help you because he realizes you are right, or if he's not maxed he will just choose to go with his other view that "Mages will make themselves Magisters". It's the fact that he is on the fence about it for the majority of the game until the Last Straw when he finally has to choose which one he is going to fight for. Because you can say that he is just sticking by Hawke since Hawke stuck by him (if he is already fully maxed and you don't have to appeal to him), which is partly true, but why in the world would Fenris agree to help them fight Templars if he didn't at least consider the Mages point of view at that point? All of them have to make a choice, they are either with Hawke and the Mages or they aren't. By your logic, he would be going directly against his "core beliefs" when he helps Hawke defend the Mages every time a player chooses that option and he helps them. Therefore it makes both Fenris and Anders being "contradictory to their core beliefs" at different points in the game, not just Anders as you apparently wish to believe.

But thank you for turning my entire argument into basically a strawman (maybe you should go ahead and look that one up..) that apparently means "Fenris and Danarius were buddies" and he was in candyland about getting "a ritual that will give me markings and free my family!" when I never said anything of the sort.

Yeah. Cool.

[Arquen]

Fenris is the guy who says what you don't want to hear. It continues to surprise me how people tend to just throw hate at him because his views conflict with their own.

I love him for being that voice in game. The difference between studying a topic and then talking to someone who lived through it. You get valuable perspective that should at least be taken into consideration.

I don't think it is Anders vs Fenris. They both have faults, but the original topic is that scene and how Anders is a complete hypocrit in that scene with Danarius and Fenris has no equivolent statements. It wins Anders no points... "a mage and a hypocrit..."

[Dr. Doctor]

The thing about Fenris is that he's blunt. If he doesn't like you or your opinion he'll just come right out and say it. Can he be insulting and tactless, yes and the whole 'understanding your limitations' banter after Dissent was intended to take Anders down a peg or two. The same thing could be said of Anders remarking on how he despises mages simply because he's jealous.

[Arquen]

Mages are not slaves. "I see no oppression here, I see danger, and fear." Fenris does NOT equivolate slavery with the circle. As for that scene in the last Straw "I thought you were against slavery!" .. "uhhh I've changed my mind." Besides being the worst written argument ever I don't see how it challenges his beliefs about slavery. He fights with Hawke because it is Hawke and Hawke believes he/she is fighting for freedom. It appeals more to his quest for freedom than prove to him that mages are slaves.

Any other time... "it is a mistake, but I will not abandon you."

It isn't that Fenris is not a hypocrit at times, but he is less so with less examples than Fenris.

Also I wasn't intending to straw man your argument really. Just inappropriate sarcasm misplaced. I don't refute what Varania says about the markings. He competed for them. The problem is what is them? What he knew about the ritual makes ALL the difference in perception of his whining about them. He competed for them can mean anything from he competed in a contest to obtain a boon to he competed in a contest to go through a ritual to get markings to become a bodyguard to get a boon. It is unclear, but as I said im more inclined to believe Danarius would not have had to reveal anything beforehand other than there is a contest and the winner gets a boon. Why reveal specifics? You will get markings, you will go through a ritual, you will lose your memory. Who would compete then? Besides the ritual and markings go hand in hand to compete for markings one would ask "what markings?" Therefore, leading to revealing the ritual or lying about it perhaps. Still.. personal opinion of mine that he knew nothing of what he was buying and that scene does not give enough information for me to think otherwise.

[Arquen]

Lol damn you phone... no edit... but that sentence was...

*it isn't that fenris is not a hypocrit at times, but he is less so with less examples than Anders.

I love the blunt Fenris personality. I would not like him if he wasn't that way. It is part of his uniqueness and charm.

[Sinaxi]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The thing about Fenris is that he's blunt. If he doesn't like you or your opinion he'll just come right out and say it. Can he be insulting and tactless, yes and the whole 'understanding your limitations' banter after Dissent was intended to take Anders down a peg or two. The same thing could be said of Anders remarking on how he despises mages simply because he's jealous.

This is honestly the only thing I was looking to discuss. I myself have absolutely no problem admitting that Anders can be totally tactless and a jerk, but in my own playthroughs I have always felt like Fenris commenting on that was at least somewhat insulting, not just a "Fenris being Fenris and stating things bluntly" because I did not consider this as Fenris attempting to be "nice". Mostly because his post banter to me was just basically him mocking Anders about it.

That, and another banter Fenris had with Anders where he brought up Leandra's death at the hands of a Mage as his reasoning for why Circles are necessary has always really bothered me. I wanted to be like "Please, you guys can argue all you want...but don't try to use my mom as a defense for your argument." Something about that has always really rubbed me the wrong way. =/ It has nothing to do with the fact that it's like, untrue or something, since obviously Hawke's mom died from a Mage but the guy was also a psychotic lunatic. It could have easily been a serial killer who wasn't a Mage. And Leandra married a very good man who was a Mage himself. Idk. I just dislike that. You can call that being blunt, but it always felt really insensitive to me concerning Hawke and the fact that he was using it basically because he was arguing with Anders was just worse to me.

So I dislike when it turns into this whole "Anders is just plain wrong and contradictory" about Justice and about what he says in that Fenris scene. Of course it's "wrong" what he says about Fenris (I won't get into the Justice thing) but like I said in my initial post I hate this idea that it's like Anders being the total dick about everything, being hypocritical about everything, and Fenris is like only "kind of" a jerk and also apparently never a hypocrite.

When I do believe he can be quite hypocritical at times, and can be just as bratty towards Anders as Anders is towards him. It's not because I like want to prove that Fenris is "as big of a jerk as Anders" or I am sitting here trying to "throw hate" at Fenris. It's just, getting back to the original topic, that I believe both of them are hypocrites at different points and it's just that I have always personally thought they basically acted the same way towards each other (as in..hey, don't like you, slave. Yeah? Don't like you, Mage! lololol obviously it is not actually that way...ahoguhega I fail. I'm getting tired.) so I have never understood why it comes as such a shocker that Anders said that to him in "Alone".

Then it devolved into me having to explain more of my points...which I won't repeat since..yeah...gooing to beed.

Modifié par Tidra, 08 août 2011 - 06:19 .

[Ryzaki]

Probably because there's a line for some people that shouldn't be crossed. 

Going "ha ha go back to your slave master!" is that line. It would be no different than handing Anders over to a templar that abused, brainwashed and mistreated him so said templar could continue abusing, brainwashing and mistreating him or turn him tranquil/erase his memories so he'd be more biddable and Fenris said "wow. Finally." 

Uh...you could just kill him you know? At least with that you'd be showing some decency. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 06:29 .

[Sinaxi]

Uh...and Fenris would object to handing Anders over to a Templar that did this? Well if you think that then cool. I don't. Fenris seems to have zero problem with Mages being made tranquil. But thanks for ignoring the actual point of my post.

[Ryzaki]

Tidra wrote...

Uh...and Fenris would object to handing Anders over to a Templar that did this? Well if you think that then cool. I don't. Fenris seems to have zero problem with Mages being made tranquil. But thanks for ignoring the actual point of my post.

I do think Fenris would object to handing over Anders to a Templar that harassed, degraded and abused him when he did nothing to deserve it. Now I don't see him objecting to sending Anders back to the circle though (in that scenario which goes under the assumption that Anders *isn't* an abomination). I don't see him cheering about it. He doesn't gloat or seem smug when my Templar Hawke told Ella to go back to the circle (nor did he protest Hawke letting her go.) I get hit by rivalry..but I don't recall him saying anything. 

Just handing Anders over to a templar though? Yeah I see him going "It's good you finally realize how dangerous he is.

That said I didn't ignore the point of your post. I certainly didn't say Fenris never did any wrong or was all knowing and wise. I know they're both in the wrong plenty of times. I just can tolerate Fenris' more because he didn't pass my tolerance horizon and see why others would feel the same. That was the point of my post. Thus my whole point of using the word "some". 

As or mages being made tranquil. I assume he like most people assume they did something to deserve it. I don't think he really thinks about the tranquil to be honest. The first thing he asks Anders is "what did he do to deserve it?" and follows it up with a "I know some mages who deserve it." so I assume he treats the tranquil like those who deserve such a fate. He doesn't know their personal stories. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 07:01 .