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[Yankee23]

I don't let him kill her because I think he may come to regret it after the anger of the moment passes. Also, he has memory flashes with Hawke and it seems he has a bit when he sees Varania as well. I can't imagine what he would feel if someday he gets his memories back and remembers a sister he loved that he killed.

Edit: Oh my first ToP!

Modifié par Yankee23, 11 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[Arquen]

I don't know if Fenris will ever get his memories back completely. Honestly he remembers "playing in their master's courtyard." That memory will always be with him now it seems because he recovers it and doesn't seem to forget it or lose it. Yet when she goes on about "Leto" and all that not to mention she led Danarius to him that takes over for any feelings of reconciliation or wanting a family.

He already regrets it the moment he does it, but he regets it as well if you let her live. It isn't the death he sees as regrettable. Killing her isn't something he has remorse over it seems. He tells Merrill "it was necessary." Yet, he will admit that she is gone and out of his reach and the fact that he allowed himself to hope. Gave her all his coin to get to Kirkwall and meet him. Risked his safety to contact her. Then she up and leads Danarius to him just as he was hoping beyond hope that she might be a person he could trust. Someone to help him through things. Help him recover or at least tell him about who he was and his life before. Then she up and does that. No, killing her becomes necessary then. I don't think Fenris would remorse in that action except for that one split second after he does it and has that look. "I am alone..."

[Sealy]

Rei: I lurve it, I love the little touches, like Fen wrapping his finger through Hawkes armour, I think thats my new favorite thing.

Arquen: for heavens sake, I am going to need you to walk me down the best options on rival path cause I have never even seen these scenes. Do want the eyeroll yup.

Omearaee: I like that pic, and for some reason the idea of Fenris biting at band is strangly adorable. I like that scene a lot.

Ryz: I am very close to the romancing part, I don't have forever to wait for the creepiness to ebb. So I am going to pretend you never planted this bad, bad seed and go with Arquens theory.  

Modifié par Fleshdress, 11 août 2011 - 05:53 .

[Arquen]

LMAO, I should do a guide with "Arquen's recommended epic Fenmance scenes!" I have done it so many times I know which ones are my favorite personalities and options. The key is to never really stick with the same personality type the whole way through.

I will do a mix of aggressive/sarcastic or sarcastic/diplomatic. My favorite is aggressive/diplomatic. I RP it like sometimes Hawke puts aside their trolling and hardline attitude because they actually are a person inside and want to comfort, persuade, say something NICE for a change. It takes the others off-guard a bit. They react differently to each personality and so if you go far into one you can't change their reactions, but blending the dialogue options makes for the most real gameplay.

I'm still undecided on the rivalmance for Fenris. At first I was rather against it, and afraid to try it, but afterwards I found it passionate, real, and just as solid as the friendmance. Though the friendmance will always be my favorite just because Fenris is a fantastic friend either way you slice it.

[Sealy]

Yah the friendmance is fantastic, I like seeing Fenris really sweet and happy, and not telling me I'll be the death of him. Especially because right after that scene I always, always go battle the high dragon and I don't know what it is with dragons thinking of elves like catnip (dragonnip?) but he pretty much spends the entire fight "distracting" the dragon by playing chew toy. I really may be the death of him. Had the same problem with Zev too. 

But I love rivalmance (in stories) with everything so on edge, angry and sweet. Nothing like the guy you hate to love falling in battle and having to oscillate between yelling at them for getting to far ahead and worrying that they might die.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 11 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Arquen wrote...

True, but then again sometimes I think learning that is more hurtful to Fenris and takes him a step backward instead of forward. His "WHy are you telling me this!?" is heartbreaking. I think it might be better if he didn't know. It wouldn't remind him of what he lost and what he has become. It wouldn't invite the questions about the man he was before and why he competed, what he competed for, the arguments we argue everyday here. Spare him from that torment of questions he won't ever be able to answer since the only people who know are dead or gone.

She still leaves him, even though she is alive there is no happy reconciliation there. Hell, she probably will just end up going to parasite on some other magister to vie for apprenticeship. I say kill her and be done with it. Fenris has enough to deal with and get through without unwanted and spiteful stories Varania tells him THEN LEAVES. Cruel, cruel woman.

I don't...like the idea of sparing him from those questions. I think he should think about and question who he was, rather than having no answers at all and blindly following Hawke for the rest of his life.  He might agonize over it, but it's going to force him to reconcile who he is now with who he might once have been, which could easily lead to him questioning many of the view points he holds, perhaps changing the way he thinks about certain things.  For someone as damaged and stuck in their ways as Fenris is, that kind of individual growth is important.  He needs to figure out who he is and who he was is a big part of that equation, in my opinion. 

And if you leave Varania alive, there IS someone to answer those questions.  No idea what the circumstances would be under which she would be in a position to answer them, but as long as she's alive, there's a chance.  Not for a "happy reconciliation" I agree, but for something, and I'd rather he have that chance, that choice, than be completely cut off from everything to do with his former life.  

I think you're discounting the different circumstances that could have caused Varania to betray Fenris.  There's any number of horrible things that could have driven her that far and letting Fenris KILL HER without knowing why she did it will never sit well with me, the very idea of it makes me angry.  As for her being spiteful, I don't see it as spite, I see it as her lashing out in reaction to the pain of the situation.  Her brother, who she presumably loved, is gone and in his place is this bitter, violent, damaged creature who doesn't even remember her and was ready to kill her a minute ago.  Is it any wonder she runs?  And it's not too much of a stretch for her to be harboring some deep seated resentment towards Leto for freeing her and her mother, since she makes it sound like it only made their lives worse.  People say hurtful things all the time when they are frightened and emotionally compromised, that doesn't make them cruel, it just makes them human. 

[UrsulaCousland]

Ineffable Igor wrote...

*snipping Arquen's quote because I SUCK with multiquotes...good argument though!*

I don't...like the idea of sparing him from those questions. I think he should think about and question who he was, rather than having no answers at all and blindly following Hawke for the rest of his life.  He might agonize over it, but it's going to force him to reconcile who he is now with who he might once have been, which could easily lead to him questioning many of the view points he holds, perhaps changing the way he thinks about certain things.  For someone as damaged and stuck in their ways as Fenris is, that kind of individual growth is important.  He needs to figure out who he is and who he was is a big part of that equation, in my opinion.  

I agree with this 100%. To me, it's more important that he get at least some connection to that past, and that he thinks it through; it's the only way he can really have any kind of closure.  The fact that she tells him he used the boon to free his family says something about Leto that I think Fenris needs to know about himself. It does pay tribute (to my mind) to who he once was, and may even give him a base to work from in that regard as he continues to figure out who he really is. (And @ Arquen - I agree - it's heartbreaking. Not to diminish that at all.)

Ineffable Igor wrote...And if you leave Varania alive, there IS someone to answer those questions.  No idea what the circumstances would be under which she would be in a position to answer them, but as long as she's alive, there's a chance.  Not for a "happy reconciliation" I agree, but for something, and I'd rather he have that chance, that choice, than be completely cut off from everything to do with his former life.  

Here's where I hope sparing her doesn't bite him in the ass later, but yes. At least the possibility is there.

Ineffable Igor wrote...I think you're discounting the different circumstances that could have caused Varania to betray Fenris.  There's any number of horrible things that could have driven her that far and letting Fenris KILL HER without knowing why she did it will never sit well with me, the very idea of it makes me angry.  As for her being spiteful, I don't see it as spite, I see it as her lashing out in reaction to the pain of the situation.  Her brother, who she presumably loved, is gone and in his place is this bitter, violent, damaged creature who doesn't even remember her and was ready to kill her a minute ago.  Is it any wonder she runs?  And it's not too much of a stretch for her to be harboring some deep seated resentment towards Leto for freeing her and her mother, since she makes it sound like it only made their lives worse.  People say hurtful things all the time when they are frightened and emotionally compromised, that doesn't make them cruel, it just makes them human. 

Like brother like sister? She isn't the only one who harbors deep-seated damage/anger/resentment and  who will lash out at someone she might have reason to care about. I hear pain and resentment in her voice when she turns around to speak before she leaves. It could be spite, and that's certainly believable, but so is this.

I still hate the circumstances, and I'm not sure how I feel about Varania overall, but these reasons are why I have him spare her. I let him kill her in one PT, and it just wasn't satisfying enough (to me) to justify the possible effects on Fenris later.

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 11 août 2011 - 07:37 .

[tsunderes]

Arquen wrote...

Though I will be the first to admit it is so much fun to Troll Fenris with Orana and watching him curse in Tevene is fantastic. I ALWAYS choose "no need to go overboard with the thanks or anything" in that act 3 dialogue. The eye-roll he gives you is priceless!

Lollll I love trolling Fenris. When is that line said? I've never heard it I don't think (not the swearing in tevene, the eye-roll worthy one)

[Sealy]

Ineffable Igor wrote...

I don't...like the idea of sparing him from those questions. I think he should think about and question who he was, rather than having no answers at all and blindly following Hawke for the rest of his life.  He might agonize over it, but it's going to force him to reconcile who he is now with who he might once have been, which could easily lead to him questioning many of the view points he holds, perhaps changing the way he thinks about certain things.  For someone as damaged and stuck in their ways as Fenris is, that kind of individual growth is important.  He needs to figure out who he is and who he was is a big part of that equation, in my opinion.

  I have always felt that it was Hawke who helps Fenris grow, on frienship or rivalry he challenges Fenris'  beliefs and stands with him through the trials. I think keeping Varania alive won't matter, if anything he learns that he did something to free his mother and sister and in return se used him to further her power.

Ineffable Igor wrote...
And if you leave Varania alive, there IS someone to answer those questions.  No idea what the circumstances would be under which she would be in a position to answer them, but as long as she's alive, there's a chance.  Not for a "happy reconciliation" I agree, but for something, and I'd rather he have that chance, that choice, than be completely cut off from everything to do with his former life.

  He will never forgive her betrayal, he will never try to contact her. I am 99% positive that that would be keeping with his character. If bioware disagrees and has them contact eachother in the future they would have to pull a Anders revamp and completly makeover his personality. Thats my opinion though, I am sure some see him as a more forgiving less stubborn character.  Which is a shame.

Ineffable Igor wrote...
I think you're discounting the different circumstances that could have caused Varania to betray Fenris.  There's any number of horrible things that could have driven her that far and letting Fenris KILL HER without knowing why she did it will never sit well with me, the very idea of it makes me angry.  As for her being spiteful, I don't see it as spite, I see it as her lashing out in reaction to the pain of the situation.  Her brother, who she presumably loved, is gone and in his place is this bitter, violent, damaged creature who doesn't even remember her and was ready to kill her a minute ago.  Is it any wonder she runs?  And it's not too much of a stretch for her to be harboring some deep seated resentment towards Leto for freeing her and her mother, since she makes it sound like it only made their lives worse.  People say hurtful things all the time when they are frightened and emotionally compromised, that doesn't make them cruel, it just makes them human. 

I don't think there is any excuse to betray your family, especially a family mmber who had gone through what Fenris had gone through to set his mother and sister free. He didn't ask for his own freedon, or power. From what little we know Leto himself was fairly selfless. We can only guess to what Varania meant about "what she had to do since her mother died", we know what Fenris had been through with Danarius though and even if Varania wants to play compare our trials I think memory wipe/lyrium brand ritual and *cough*intimate*cough* trumps working as a servent and then used as bait... or even working in a **** house, or whatever horrors we can dream up for Varania, if Hadriana was telling the truth then she wasn't a slave at least. I dunno, when she says that line about him not knowing what she'd been through I want to grab her an shake her and be like you have no idea what he's been through, and then you add this!  Do you know how many weeks Ill have to work on fixing this! That said I usually don't kill her cause like Varric and my Hawke usually says, it doesn't help. Adding killing family to his lists of burdens isn't really worth it to me and I think dealing with the "I fought for these eww" is easier to deal with then "omg, all I see is blood all over my hands, I kill everyone close to me!" breakdown he eventually has in my head.

Edit: Cause the spelling, the grammar. It's too aweful to go on.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 11 août 2011 - 07:57 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Fleshdress wrote...

 I have always felt that it was Hawke who helps Fenris grow, on frienship or rivalry he challenges Fenris'  beliefs and stands with him through the trials. I think keeping Varania alive won't matter, if anything he learns that he did something to free his mother and sister and in return se used him to further her power.

This depends on how you interpret the relationship with Hawke.  To me, it's always been that Hawke is there to shake him up, force him to confront his problems and get him to a point that he has enough strength as an individual that he doesn't NEED Hawke to be autonomous and shape his own identity.  Understanding who he used to be is a part of that identity.  Granted, sparing her probably wouldn't make THAT much of a difference, but it could open doors for him down the line that would otherwise have been shut (similar to how Hawke killing a sibling in the deep roads is going to lead to a different development of Hawke's character than the sibling becoming a Grey Warden). 

And she didn't use him to further her power, or she did, but not in an "I'm power hungry and evul!" kind of way, more in an "This is what I need to do if I ever want to live a better life" kind of way.  Danarius seems to have manipulated and probably threatened her in order to get at Fenris, and if she did resent him a betrayal doesn't seem like such a leap for her.  She hadn't seen him in years and he wasn't her brother anymore in anything but blood.  Chances are she was just trying to survive in the only way she knew how.  

He will never forgive her betrayal, he will never try to contact her. I am 99% positive that that would be keeping with his character. If bioware disagrees and has them contact eachother in the future they would have to pull a Anders revamp and completly makeover his personality. Thats my opinion though, I am sure some see him as a more forgiving less stubborn character.  Which is a shame.

Sure.  Right now.  Something could happen that causes him to want to contact her, find out why she did what she did, or circumstances could force them together, or Hawke could try to convince him it's worth pursuing.  Just because he's stubborn and opposed to the idea doesn't something couldn't change his mind or force him to confront it.  I certainly don't see them coming into contact as out of the realm of possibility and I don't see it as out of character.  Everything is dependent on circumstances.

I don't think there is any excuse to betray your family, especially a family mmber who had gone through what Fenris had gone through to set his mother and sister free. He didn't ask for his own freedon, or power. From what little we know Leto himself was fairly selfless. We can only guess to what Varania meant about "what she had to do since her mother died", we know what Fenris had been through with Danarius though and even if Varania wants to play compare our trials I think memory wipe/lyrium brand ritual and *cough*intimate*cough* trumps working as a servent and then used as bait... or even working in a **** house, or whatever horrors we can dream up for Varania, if Hadriana was telling the truth then she wasn't a slave at least. I dunno, when she says that line about him not knowing what she'd been through I want to grab her an shake her and be like you have no idea what he's been through, and then you add this!  Do you know how many weeks Ill have to work on fixing this! That said I usually don't kill her cause like Varric and my Hawke usually says, it doesn't help. Adding killing family to his lists of burdens isn't really worth it to me and I think dealing with the "I fought for these eww" is easier to deal with then "omg, all I see is blood all over my hands, I kill everyone close to me!" breakdown he eventually has in my head.

Edit: Cause the spelling, the grammar. It's too aweful to go on.

So, wait, it's not okay to betray your family EVER, but if a family member betrays you it's totally okay and morally sound for you to KILL THEM?

That's a double standard if ever I've heard one.  Even if you don't kill her, that's what you're saying.  I won't say Varania isn't at fault for the betrayal, but I think Fenris does worse by killing her with no knowledge of her reasons.  I just don't understand how someone can have so much empathy for Fenris and none for Varania.  Sure, Fenris may have suffered more, but that sort of comparison of suffering doesn't matter in this situation.  People who've been through pain carry that with them for the rest of their lives, it affects their actions, that's why Varania did what she did.  Why is it so easy for people to forgive Fenris for murdering the Fog Warriors because of the damage and manipulation Danarius had put him through, but Varania betraying Fenris in a ditch attempt to improve her most likely completely pootastic quality of life?  OFF WITH HER HEAD.

Modifié par Ineffable Igor, 11 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[Ryzaki]

It does help that it's Fenris' decison to kill his sister. If you don't intervene that's what he does. My Hawkes tend to pick the "Uh...not getting involved. You made your bed honey. You lie in it." as they back away.

[Sealy]

Ineffable Igor wrote...
So, wait, it's not okay to betray your family EVER, but if a family member betrays you it's totally okay and morally sound for you to KILL THEM?

That's a double standard if ever I've heard one.  Even if you don't kill her, that's what you're saying.  I won't say Varania isn't at fault for the betrayal, but I think Fenris does worse by killing her with no knowledge of her reasons.  I just don't understand how someone can have so much empathy for Fenris and none for Varania.  Sure, Fenris may have suffered more, but that sort of comparison of suffering doesn't matter in this situation.  People who've been through pain carry that with them for the rest of their lives, it affects their actions, that's why Varania did what she did.  Why is it so easy for people to forgive Fenris for murdering the Fog Warriors because of the damage and manipulation Danarius had put him through, but Varania betraying Fenris in a ditch attempt to improve her most likely completely pootastic quality of life?  OFF WITH HER HEAD.

 
Uhg, the capitals, make me feel yelled at. As someone who trys to keep her posts as light hearted and unoffensive as possible I get the feeling I tick people off with my opinion alot.

I was merely saying that I understand why Fenris would want to kill her and in the game from what we know he tried to save his family only to be fed to the sharks by said family member. His line "Why not? She was ready to see me dead" meant a lot to me, because she was truely ready to offer up her brother in an attempt to make her own life better. Killing her after that wouldn't be a betrayal to her, it's revenge and as someone who thoughout my game have killed others for lesser betrayals my Hawkes really don't have any gnawing need to get in the way of his revenge.

I don't sympathize with Varania because all I know about her is that she says she has had a tough life. What elf hasn't and yet family is family. Varania had no crime to betray Fenris for other then that the road to her hell was paved with his best intentions. What she did, or had done with that freedom had nothing to do with him, and yet she was ready to kill him to make her life better. I find this atrocious but it may be because I myself have a very close family and I could never see myself betraying one of them for myself. I could see myself being angry and hurt enough to to want them dead if they  tried to have me killed.  

Modifié par Fleshdress, 11 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[jamesp81]

I never really liked the guy personally, but I did like having him around for a few reasons.

One is the way I could always count on him to come with me to kill some slavers. He's a complete dick where mages are concerned and I don't appreciate the way he treated Bethany or Merrill. I know that some players sold him back to Danarius for that. I would never do that. He might be an ass, but some things just aren't done and that's one of them. When it comes to slavers, his kill 'em all attitude is the right response.

I also like that he sort of broke a fantasy mold a little bit about elves. The Dalish are very traditional fantasy-setting elves. They tend towards magical talents and their soldiers favor light armor, light weapons, and speed. But not Fenris. He shows up in heavy plate with a big assed sword, ready to wreck the place.

[Sir Edric]

omearaee wrote...

 Fenris by Maruhana-bachi 
A little bloody but that face! 
http://maruhana-bach...lar Fenris&qo=0

After I saw that fenris held her heart in his hand this pic became 100 times better!!

[Sealy]

Vrex_12 wrote...

omearaee wrote...

 Fenris by Maruhana-bachi 
A little bloody but that face! 
http://maruhana-bach...lar Fenris&qo=0


*snip*

After I saw that fenris held her heart in his hand this pic became 100 times better!!

Oh I never saw that either til now... ew. Now I want his mouth away from the favour.

[Ineffable Igor]

Fleshdress wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...
So, wait, it's not okay to betray your family EVER, but if a family member betrays you it's totally okay and morally sound for you to KILL THEM?

That's a double standard if ever I've heard one.  Even if you don't kill her, that's what you're saying.  I won't say Varania isn't at fault for the betrayal, but I think Fenris does worse by killing her with no knowledge of her reasons.  I just don't understand how someone can have so much empathy for Fenris and none for Varania.  Sure, Fenris may have suffered more, but that sort of comparison of suffering doesn't matter in this situation.  People who've been through pain carry that with them for the rest of their lives, it affects their actions, that's why Varania did what she did.  Why is it so easy for people to forgive Fenris for murdering the Fog Warriors because of the damage and manipulation Danarius had put him through, but Varania betraying Fenris in a ditch attempt to improve her most likely completely pootastic quality of life?  OFF WITH HER HEAD.

 
Uhg, the capitals, make me feel yelled at. As someone who trys to keep her posts as light hearted and unoffensive as possible I get the feeling I tick people off with my opinion alot.

Sorry, I was using them for emphasis.  I know that can come off as yelling though, no offense meant.  I tend to get sloppy with emphasis when I'm in debate/rant mode.

I was merely saying that I understand why Fenris would want to kill her and in the game from what we know he tried to save his family only to be fed to the sharks by said family member. His line "Why not? She was ready to see me dead" meant a lot to me, because she was truely ready to offer up her brother in an attempt to make her own life better. Killing her after that wouldn't be a betrayal to her, it's revenge and as someone who thoughout my game have killed others for lesser betrayals my Hawkes really don't have any gnawing need to get in the way of his revenge.

This is assuming that Varania thought giving him back to Danaeius would result in his death or continued suffering.  There's no way to confirm exactly what she knew about what had happened to her brother.  For all we know she thought he was Hawke's slave and Danarius was just trying to reclaim what had already been his.  Maybe she felt that by getting him back and becoming a magister she could use her newfound position to free him and/or give him a better life.  I don't feel it's appropriate to judge her actions so harshly when we have so little to go on about why it happened.  

I don't sympathize with Varania because all I know about her is that she says she has had a tough life. What elf hasn't and yet family is family. Varania had no crime to betray Fenris for other then that the road to her hell was paved with his best intentions. What she did, or had done with that freedom had nothing to do with him, and yet she was ready to kill him to make her life better. I find this atrocious but it may be because I myself have a very close family and I could never see myself betraying one of them for myself. I could see myself being angry and hurt enough to to want them dead if they  tried to have me killed.  

Okay, the bold is because that sentence is cool.  I applaud your turn of phrase.  

I have a very close family too, I can see where you're coming from on that, though I'd never want any of them dead, no matter what they did to me.  But our standards can't really be applied to Fenris and Varania.  They have virtually no ties to each other by "Alone", beyond what happened in the past when both of them were different people.  As I said, Varania hasn't seen him, might even blame him for what's happened to her, there's no way of knowing exactly how she feels about Fenris, so I don't think her betrayal can or should be interpreted as atrocious or something she did with good intentions.  The reasoning behind her actions depends on what can be inferred.  And what I infer about her situation causes me to empathize with her, for whatever reason.  

[Sealy]

Man I would quote that and answer each part individually but I am computer inept so I shant bother and make a mess of the page.

Oh, I wasn't offended, no worries...

I was scared. 

Kidding and rereading I may have jumped the gun, I claim slightly touchy nerves from time spent in the Elthina thread where things get heated and a little mean.
 
The Varania thing will all come down to how people see the characters. I assume that she knew exactly what would go down with her brother, but I can't assume that you'll assume the same so my different opinions come from different perception of the scene. Understandable. And if I saw the scene the way you did I would probably feel the same, but I saw it as her knowing exactly what she was doing, sacrificing her brother for herself. The only one who wouldn't have any emotional connection to mke them feel attached should be Fenris since he has no memory of Varania, and yet he is still the one who trys to give her a better life then what she had.

I have high self preservation instinct and have been known to sacrifice a friend or two to get away during tag, preadator prey... anything. So if I felt threatened by a family member, who I had no memory of the family member probably wouldn't make it very long. Fenris also has a high self preservation instinct, though you would never know it from the way he climbs into the mouths of dragons. I get the impression that he will take down anyone in the way of his freedom. Servent of Danarius is all he see's Varania as by the end of that scene. She did that to herself too.

Turn of phrase: Thanks, I am just that awesome. 

I also prefer telling my Fen that not having his sister or any link to his past only means there is nothing holding him back from making himself into a man he wants to be instead of one he thinks he should be. I have a feeling nothing good is lying behind that great wall of memory supression.    

Modifié par Fleshdress, 11 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Ineffable Igor]

Fleshdress wrote...

Man I would quote that and answer each part individually but I am computer inept so I shant bother and make a mess of the page.

Oh, I wasn't offended, no worries...

I was scared. 

Kidding and rereading I may have jumped the gun, I claim slightly touchy nerves from time spent in the Elthina thread where things get heated and a little mean.
 
The Varania thing will all come down to how people see the characters. I assume that she knew exactly what would go down with her brother, but I can't assume that you'll assume the same so my different opinions come from different perception of the scene. Understandable. And if I saw the scene the way you did I would probably feel the same, but I saw it as her knowing exactly what she was doing, sacrificing her brother for herself. The only one who wouldn't have any emotional connection to mke them feel attached should be Fenris since he has no memory of Varania, and yet he is still the one who trys to give her a better life then what she had.

I have high self preservation instinct and have been known to sacrifice a friend or two to get away during tag, preadator prey... anything. So if I felt threatened by a family member, who I had no memory of the family member probably wouldn't make it very long. Fenris also has a high self preservation instinct, though you would never know it from the way he climbs into the mouths of dragons. I get the impression that he will take down anyone in the way of his freedom. Servent of Danarius is all he see's Varania as by the end of that scene. She did that to herself too.

Turn of phrase: Thanks, I am just that awesome. 

I also prefer telling my Fen that not having his sister or any link to his past only means there is nothing holding him back from making himself into a man he wants to be instead of one he thinks he should be. I have a feeling nothing good is lying behind that great wall of memory supression.    

That's certainly something worth wondering about.  I for one have always wanted that wall to come down mainly due to curiosity and a somewhat overly enthusiastic love of teh dramaz.  It would certainly lead to some extremely interesting character development for Fenris.  The question is whether that would affect him in a positive or negative manner.  I think it's one point concerning Fenris that is pretty much impossible to truly theorize on since we don't know who Leto was and how those memories emerging would impact Fenris's identity.  It's actually one of the things that draws me to Fenris, he has so much potential for development.  I hope the writers don't leave that potential unrealized.

As far as Varania goes, you are right, it's all about character interpretation.  That is true of all the characters, really.  It certainly leads to lots of very interesting debate and even if no one manages to change anyone else's mind, it's always cool to see the different perspectives.   

And you're right, some of the discussion threads can get rather mean.  Especilly if they're about a certain Teyrn.  But we won't talk about him, he's an attention ****.

Modifié par Ineffable Igor, 11 août 2011 - 11:20 .

[Arquen]

 Venhedis I started the Varania argument all over again without meaning to. Bleh!

@tsunderes - that is the sarcastic Hawke response when he curses at you in Tevene in act 3. The infamous Festis bei umo canavarum. She goes "no need to go overboard with the thanks or anything..." and he turns and just rolls his eyes, and turns back.

Now, for Varania. First of all I don't think it is important for him to know who Leto was to create an identity. If anything it is harmful to him psychologically because he has been struggling to build an identity around Fenris for so long. That is already stunted by the fact that he is a slave. It isn't to spare him pain per say. I'm not suggesting being a "dawww protect him from the evil world truth" kind of thing. What I mean is that this knowledge spirals into unanswerable questions. It causes a break in identity not a fix. It is better to not know. It is better for her not to tell him simply because he already has an identity and knowing what Leto did for his family changes nothing. Adds nothing. If you keep her alive he says as much. That it doesn't change anything to know that he competed for the markings. The only purpose it serves is for him to question and argue and fracture his already compromised identity. It isn't worth knowing a fraction of a past that no longer is obtainable.

Also, Varania leaves because Fenris tells her to "get out!" She didn't have to turn around, twist the knife, and then leave. She could have kept her mouth shut about "freedom was no boon." Sorry, but that whole thing was spite, not compassion. She felt she just had to correct him on the markings thing. "You said you didn't want this, but that isn't true." She is twisting the knife.

Fenris says: I thought finding Varania would open up a new world, one that was lost forever. But it's gone, and I can't get it back.

If you let Varania live it doesn't matter. He isn't going to find her again. If they ever meet in the future it won't be to reconcile past times. In fact I don't think Fenris would even care to. He would probably try to kill her again, LOL. It was what he wanted to do in the first place. "Fenris does what he wants." He moves on to the future because the past is unimportant. This is what you want him to do. To listen to Varania's inane drivel about Leto only serves to knock Fenris back into being tangled in the past. Fenris needs to move on to the future. His future. Not dwell on who Leto was. That is unimportant. I completely disagree that he needs to know anything about Leto to build or know himself better.

He even says to Merrill....
Merrill: Do you regret it? What happened with your sister, I mean.

Fenris: No.

If Fenris killed Varania
Merrill: You don't feel bad about killing her? Not even a little?

Fenris: It was necessary.

Otherwise
Merrill: You don't wish... that maybe you hadn't found her again?

Fenris: Whatever I wish, it is already done.

Merrill: You're lucky, then. There are so many things I wish I could undo.

As for my personal take on Varania. I'll have to quote myself from the discussion before.

I can see where your coming from in thinking that Varania is a poor lost soul thrown into the chaos of the world of freedom. However, as Caoilfhionn pointed out she has been free for a very long time. Just because she didn't live with Fog Warriors for a couple of months didn't mean she never saw how free elves lived. She learned a trade, had a job, was "a servant, not a slave," and even "left the service" of her master. She could make choices and do things Fenris never could.

To me she isn't worth pitying, she was given a chance at Freedom, and allowed to live free. To say that wasn't worth much because it was a "hard life" does not justify her choice to sell out her brother to a worse fate than she had ever suffered just for a chance at power. It is beyond selfishness, and it is her choice, she could have left Danarius and Fenris behind. She was free to do so, but didn't because she thought only of herself.
I never believed Fenris was "exactly the same as her" at any time. He was a slave who never dreamed of freedom and she was a servant who got paid for her work, could choose to leave her employer and could move around and do as she wished. Being a servant differs enough from a slave because you have the choice to leave your employer. You have the choice to go somewhere else, refuse to do something, and you get paid wages - money you can do what you want with. Very different from a slave.

Varania had choices, Fenris did not. Even when it came to the Fog Warriors it was "inevitable" that he ended up back with his master until he realized what he had done. To me the Fog warriors didn't show him what to do with freedom, but more that freedom was possible to achieve, and that is why he ran. Varania on the other hand was sent with her mother out of her slave life ... we don't know to where, or where she learned her tailor skill, or who her mother was or how she died or anything. Perhaps knowing more could allow for pity, but as is she was able to live free from slavery which would have denied her basic human rights.

Also, her actions just remind me of "a sniveling social climber who would sell out her own children for a chance" at power. She is not worth my pity. I'm on the fence if she is worth my disdain or not, actually.

[dangereusegirl]

I remember this being said a long time ago (hundreds of pages back) but it was a bit foolish of Varania to basically sell out her brother because she thought Danarius was going to train her as his apprentice. She had no solid proof that he would hold his end of the bargain. I can just see him getting Fenris back and then ditch Varania first chance he got. Although, it may be that she felt that if she worked for Danarius, that would give her a chance to get close to Fenris. A bit silly, IMO, but it is possible.

For me, it always seemed like Varania was one of those slaves that liked her position in life. Sure, she didn't have any rights as a being, but she had a roof over her head, a job, and food to eat (unless Tevinter slave owners regularly starved their slaves =/). She didn't have any desire for freedom, so when she got it, she didn't know what to do with it. Either that, or she wasn't that resourceful. She could have taken her mother and travel to any place in Thedas . It would be difficult, no doubt about that, but it might have been better in the long run.

[ReiSilver]

I tend to come down softer on the Varania issue. Mainly because from her body language, selling out her brother isn't something she's proud of, but feels is her best option. She's not eager about it, she avoids looking him in the eye and isn't enjoying what's happening at all.
I think she must have rationalised to herself that if she were Danarius' apprentice she'd be in a position to look after Fenris in some way. If her life of freedom has been crappy she could have assumed Fenris was just as miserable.

If she'd been looking Fenris in the eye and all 'mwahaha, f- you brother I'm going to be a Magister' yeah she'd be a monster and I'd have no sympathy for her. But she isn't a monster, she's a flawed character doing something horrible in a situation we don't have enough information on the accurately judge.

I don't see her parting comment as spite, it seemed more to me like an explanation of her actions. That she wasn't freed through any struggle of her own and in the earlier discussion we went over how a life as a freed slave could be absolutely horrible, that she sees Fenris with his new friends that fought by his side and thinks that for all he may have suffered in the past with the markings he has the better life then she currently does.

I'm not excusing the act of betrayal, it's horrible, I just can't hate her too much or think she deserves death. (But then I'm a Jowan sympathiser so I have a habit of wanting to know more about characters who make horrible choices and tend to fail at life)

(I also did a quick colour of my earlier picture of Fenris teasing my Marric Hawke about his facial hair link to tumblr for suggestive m/m)

[dangereusegirl]

Yeah I feel bad for her. Still, I think there other options out there, besides leading your brother (who fought for you to have a life most could only dream about) right into a trap. The 'freedom is no boon' comment just makes me feel like she failed at taking advantage of the situation she had been put in.

I try to keep her alive, though, on most playthroughs. After Varania leaves with that little bomb dropped on Fenris on how he got his markings, I think Hawke would use it to try and comfort him by telling him how it proves what a great person he is. How many would spend a boon gaining freedom for their family (besides possibly the Warden and Hawke, had Hawke ever had the option)? It was a noble thing to do, even if he didn't really know what he was getting into.

[ReiSilver]

dangereusegirl wrote...

Yeah I feel bad for her. Still, I think there other options out there, besides leading your brother (who fought for you to have a life most could only dream about) right into a trap. The 'freedom is no boon' comment just makes me feel like she failed at taking advantage of the situation she had been put in.

I try to keep her alive, though, on most playthroughs. After Varania leaves with that little bomb dropped on Fenris on how he got his markings, I think Hawke would use it to try and comfort him by telling him how it proves what a great person he is. How many would spend a boon gaining freedom for their family (besides possibly the Warden and Hawke, had Hawke ever had the option)? It was a noble thing to do, even if he didn't really know what he was getting into.

*bolded for emphasis* This actually makes me think of one of the issues that's rarely bought up on fantasy and that is that you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. ** Like with Fenris and the Fog Warriors they fought to try and keep him safe, but at that moment he wasn't mentally ready to go against the previous constant in his life of doing whatever his master ordered. It was only after killing them that he was even ready to flee and years later when he first meets Hawke and has him/her as backup that he thinks he's ready to face Danarius again.

I don't know how old Varania was when Fenris recieved the boon, but she got freedom handed to her without having to fight for it herself and without any of the experience that Fenris got with the Fog Warriors. We don't know what freedom ment to her at the time, if she had ever dreamed of it or if there were any free people she could look up to and emulate, other then magisters.

**The only series I can think of off the top of my head that really nails this home is Revolutionary Girl Utena with Anthy, which made her one of my favorite chracters of all time.

[Arquen]

Also, something about what Fenris says has always puzzled me. He says "I remember playing in our master's courtyard."

This suggests two things. 1.) Fenris was always a slave and born into slavery with his whole family. and 2.) Danarius was not always his master. If Danarius was his master then why didn't he say "Danarius' courtyard." -- Perhaps he is being obtuse and we just assume it is Danarius. Perhaps he just remembers it as a "masters" courtyard, but doesn't know who.

I've said my piece on Varania so I won't go further into it really. However, I do like that idea Rei about people who don't want to be saved. Merrill also falls into this as well. It is a theme that you don't often see, but is very true in real life. Yet, it still brings no pity points from Varania that she was "not ready" for freedom.

I think of Orana "it wasn't, you just didn't know any better." -- How long did it take Fenris to get to that frame of mind. For Varania, it must have taken a while as well. What justifies taking her life to me are her choices. We can argue and suppose she didn't have a choice, was coerced, didn't know her ass from a hole in the ground, etc. but in the end she did have more freedom and choice than a slave. She had no master. She wasn't property, and the person she becomes and the potential threat she poses justifies it for me. There is no happy ending there. She made her choice.

[dangereusegirl]

True, and for that, I have recommended killing her during the odd playthrough or two. However, most of my Hawkes are big on family, and after losing her brother/sister/mom to the Blight/Templars/maniacs, she has trouble condoning killing family unless there is no other option. She gets Bartrand the help he needs, even though he was a totally a-hole, and will tell Fenris that killing Varania won't make him feel better. And in the end, Fenris might even thank her for stopping him (although i doubt it XD)