Arquen wrote...
Venhedis I started the Varania argument all over again without meaning to. Bleh!
Nuuu, debate is good! Even if it's repeated, different people bring different ideas to the table, which leads to new ways of thinking about an issue! Plus it's much more interesting to read than the straight up fangirling that can often go down in here.
*Snip*
Now, for Varania. First of all I don't think it is important for him to know who Leto was to create an identity. If anything it is harmful to him psychologically because he has been struggling to build an identity around Fenris for so long. That is already stunted by the fact that he is a slave. It isn't to spare him pain per say. I'm not suggesting being a "dawww protect him from the evil world truth" kind of thing. What I mean is that this knowledge spirals into unanswerable questions. It causes a break in identity not a fix. It is better to not know. It is better for her not to tell him simply because he already has an identity and knowing what Leto did for his family changes nothing. Adds nothing. If you keep her alive he says as much. That it doesn't change anything to know that he competed for the markings. The only purpose it serves is for him to question and argue and fracture his already compromised identity. It isn't worth knowing a fraction of a past that no longer is obtainable.
Leto is still a part of him though. Whether he knows it or not, it's his past, he
has to come to terms with it on some level. One level is ignoring it forever and moving on. The other is finding out, questioning, coming to the realization that knowing doesn't change anything and then moving on. He comes to this relization not knowing as well, but his past will still have power over him, as finding out anything about it
could potentially lead to exactly the kind of unanswerable question spiraling you were talking about, it still has the potential to break him. If he
knows and discovers that even
knowing doesn't change who he has become, what's important to him,
then the past truly has no power over him. Knowing is what's imprtant. "It doesn't matter": being able to build that conviction on the
knowledge that it is true rather than the belief that it is true gives him a stronger foundation for building his identity. Not knowing, he will have doubts, even if he
believes that nothing about his past could ever really matter to who he has become. That's the problem with belief, there is
always room for uncertainty if you are a thinking individual, which I like to think Fenris is, or is at least becoming. You are making the assumption that knowing his past and having questions
will fracture his identity when it clearly doesn't. He says so, it doesn't matter, and he
knows it doesn't.
Also, Varania leaves because Fenris tells her to "get out!" She didn't have to turn around, twist the knife, and then leave. She could have kept her mouth shut about "freedom was no boon." Sorry, but that whole thing was spite, not compassion. She felt she just had to correct him on the markings thing. "You said you didn't want this, but that isn't true." She is twisting the knife.
I never said it was compassion. I think it was a violent, and yes, spiteful reaction to a painful situation. Something Fenris does rather often himself, in fact ("What has magic touched that it doesn't spoil?!" in mage Hawke's face, comes to mind<_<). I can forgive it in Fenris, I can forgive it in Varania too. She's scared, she's angry, she's probably very confused. I'd have been more willing to hate her if she
had just run off without saying anything because that would imply that she really, truly didn't care about what had just happened and Fenris meant absolutely nothing to her. Telling him shows that she has an emotional investment in the situation, even if she wishes she didn't. She cares enough to want to hurt him, which in a twisted way shows that she cares
about him.
Fenris says: I thought finding Varania would open up a new world, one that was lost forever. But it's gone, and I can't get it back.
If you let Varania live it doesn't matter. He isn't going to find her again. If they ever meet in the future it won't be to reconcile past times. In fact I don't think Fenris would even care to. He would probably try to kill her again, LOL. It was what he wanted to do in the first place. "Fenris does what he wants." He moves on to the future because the past is unimportant. This is what you want him to do. To listen to Varania's inane drivel about Leto only serves to knock Fenris back into being tangled in the past. Fenris needs to move on to the future. His future. Not dwell on who Leto was. That is unimportant. I completely disagree that he needs to know anything about Leto to build or know himself better.
He even says to Merrill....
Merrill: Do you regret it? What happened with your sister, I mean.
Fenris: No.
If Fenris killed Varania
Merrill: You don't feel bad about killing her? Not even a little?
Fenris: It was necessary.
Otherwise
Merrill: You don't wish... that maybe you hadn't found her again?
Fenris: Whatever I wish, it is already done.
Merrill: You're lucky, then. There are so many things I wish I could undo.
He's not actively going to find her, no, but I don't see him killing her on sight either if they ever
did come into contact again. Like Varric said, "It doesn't help." He's moved on, the past in unimportant. I only see him killing her if she were once more trying to use him, which I don't think she would be, what's the point? It's not as if that went well for her the first time and Fenris can't really be used as a bargaining chip anymore, what with Danarius dead. I don't think either of them would be happy about seeing each other, but I also don't think there's absolutely no chance of reconciliation if they did. I am sure that you flat out disagree with me on that point, but you and I clearly don't see what Varania did and how that characterizes her in the same light.
And again, you're assuming he dwells. He doesn't, he moves on, just like I want him to. Regardless of whether he knows or not, he will go on into his own future, the only difference being the psychological differences (knowledge and belief) I discussed in my first paragraph. It's a small difference, but it's there, and
I think it's important. It will give him certainty and therefore strength.
I can see where your coming from in thinking that Varania is a poor lost soul thrown into the chaos of the world of freedom. However, as Caoilfhionn pointed out she has been free for a very long time. Just because she didn't live with Fog Warriors for a couple of months didn't mean she never saw how free elves lived. She learned a trade, had a job, was "a servant, not a slave," and even "left the service" of her master. She could make choices and do things Fenris never could.
To me she isn't worth pitying, she was given a chance at Freedom, and allowed to live free. To say that wasn't worth much because it was a "hard life" does not justify her choice to sell out her brother to a worse fate than she had ever suffered just for a chance at power. It is beyond selfishness, and it is her choice, she could have left Danarius and Fenris behind. She was free to do so, but didn't because she thought only of herself.
The flaw in this argument is that you are making an assumption about her reasoning.
We don't know why she did it, what she thought the circumstances were, what her true motivations were. We are never told and the whole scene is ambiguous enough that you can't make a solid inference about why she chose to act as she did. There
is the possibility for mitigating circumstances. Just because they aren't explicitly stated doesn't mean that they can be discounted.
I never believed Fenris was "exactly the same as her" at any time. He was a slave who never dreamed of freedom and she was a servant who got paid for her work, could choose to leave her employer and could move around and do as she wished. Being a servant differs enough from a slave because you have the choice to leave your employer. You have the choice to go somewhere else, refuse to do something, and you get paid wages - money you can do what you want with. Very different from a slave.
Varania had choices, Fenris did not. Even when it came to the Fog Warriors it was "inevitable" that he ended up back with his master until he realized what he had done. To me the Fog warriors didn't show him what to do with freedom, but more that freedom was possible to achieve, and that is why he ran. Varania on the other hand was sent with her mother out of her slave life ... we don't know to where, or where she learned her tailor skill, or who her mother was or how she died or anything. Perhaps knowing more could allow for pity, but as is she was able to live free from slavery which would have denied her basic human rights.
This is true. Doesn't mean Varania thought it was true or that an elf would be granted basic human rights, even if they were a servant. Just because she's a servant now doesn't mean she's going to lose the slave mentality she grew up on, especially if the treatment she receives hasn't improved or has gotten even worse You have to see and have hope for something better to truly take control of who you are, that's why Fenris could run. Varania may never have had that advantage. Knowing less about her situation allows
more room for pity in my opinion, since we have no idea what her circumstances
actually were.
Also, her actions just remind me of "a sniveling social climber who would sell out her own children for a chance" at power. She is not worth my pity. I'm on the fence if she is worth my disdain or not, actually.
No. Just no. You cannot compare Varania to Hadrianna, their circumstancse are
completely different. Hadrianna's a magister, she has had priveliege beyond anything Varania could ever have known. Her actions have nothing to do with saving herself or improving her lot in life and everything to do with her desire for power and her need to manipulate and control others. That is a major difference.
Varania has my empathy. We all have our Freudian Excuses, unless you're a psychopath, which I don't think Varania is. I think she deserves consideration and deserves fair trial (not litterally of course, but that is an interesting mental picture) before any judgement can be passed on her.
So that's my argument. I doubt I've managed to change your mind since you obviously feel strongly on the matter, but, well, so do I. As long as you've considered it, that's enough for me.
Retour en haut
