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[Ineffable Igor]

darkrose wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...

I'd definitely consider the Qun itself a philosophy, but the way the Qunari implement and go about spreading it...Yes, well, they certainly aren't big thinkers, are they?  

Don't forget that we're only seeing a third of Qunari society. The "thinkers" are presumably the priests, who so far, at least, haven't been seen outside of Par Vollen.

Yes, but I don't think any of those priests are questioning the Qun.  They're the thinkers within the boundaries of their own belief system, not beyond.  I'd say those Qunari who become Tal-Vashoth are the ones who are doing most of the critical thinking, which is what I meant.

EDIT: Eeee!  ToP!  Oh, these are my favorites.

by ~kartoffelmos


by ~andarix

Modifié par Ineffable Igor, 18 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[darkrose]

Ineffable Igor wrote...

darkrose wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...

I'd definitely consider the Qun itself a philosophy, but the way the Qunari implement and go about spreading it...Yes, well, they certainly aren't big thinkers, are they?  

Don't forget that we're only seeing a third of Qunari society. The "thinkers" are presumably the priests, who so far, at least, haven't been seen outside of Par Vollen.

Yes, but I don't think any of those priests are questioning the Qun.  They're the thinkers within the boundaries of their own belief system, not beyond.  I'd say those Qunari who become Tal-Vashoth are the ones who are doing most of the critical thinking, which is what I meant.

If you're defining "thinking" as "questioning the religion", then there are very few thinkers in Thedas, period. The Chantry, the Dalish, the dwarves; every group in the game is limited by their belief system, with the possible exception of the odd mage or two, and even most of them, if asked, would probably say that of course the Chant is correct, it's just been misinterpreted by the Chantry. 

The Qun is probably the most logical of the belief systems we see. It doesn't depend on some invisible or absent deity. Everyone has a clearly defined role--as Arquen pointed out above, it's very Platonic--and the primary goal is mastery and control of the self. Sure, to a modern audience, the lack of individual freedom is a problem, but it's worth noting that in northern Thedas, the Chantry ended up massacring people who had converted to the Qun and didn't want to convert back. Something about that has to be appealing.

[darkrose]

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

[Arquen]

OoOO I love those Fenarts Igor. I had seen them before a long time ago but I never added them to my DA favs. I wish she would color the first one, her colorings are so beautiful.

As for the Qun thing I think what we were getting at was the philosophical and "thinking outside the box" nature of the Qunari. Nobody questions anything in the Qun. In fact remembering conversations with Sten: He doesn't even understand what your asking when you ask about changing roles and destiny and such. It is such a foreign concept to the Qunari and that is what makes their society and their people seem unimaginative and not great "thinkers." Define thinking as not so much academic learning, but hypothesizing and creating ideas that are outside the norm. The Qun do not seem to do this.

However, I would be intrigued to know what a Qunari priest brings to the table. I'm expecting a dogmatic, rigid, academically ruleset bound zealot type though. Not a philosophical thinker type who can appreciate or understand change and ideals. It isn't about questioning the religion, but more about questioning everything. The Qunari are like absolute zero in this respect. They question nothing because that is not the demand of the Qun.

Others in Thedas constantly question everything. From the Chantry having different beliefs throughout the Andrastian faith to the Apostates and Circles and Templars and Mages who do question their station and their roles.

I think Fenris' connection to the Qunari too has to do with the fact that he sees them much like slaves. Much like he was. Stuck in a role without questioning and no seeming way out. It is kind of shocking how much sympathy he has for Saarebas (a mage!). He remarks on the blind loyalty and servitude and how he knows it well. I think that his interest with the Qunari even as a slave stemmed from that.

Modifié par Arquen, 18 août 2011 - 10:05 .

[Heidenreich]

Arquen wrote...

OoOO I love those Fenarts Igor. I had seen them before a long time ago but I never added them to my DA favs. I wish she would color the first one, her colorings are so beautiful.

As for the Qun thing I think what we were getting at was the philosophical and "thinking outside the box" nature of the Qunari. Nobody questions anything in the Qun. In fact remembering conversations with Sten: He doesn't even understand what your asking when you ask about changing roles and destiny and such. It is such a foreign concept to the Qunari and that is what makes their society and their people seem unimaginative and not great "thinkers." Define thinking as not so much academic learning, but hypothesizing and creating ideas that are outside the norm. The Qun do not seem to do this.

However, I would be intrigued to know what a Qunari priest brings to the table. I'm expecting a dogmatic, rigid, academically ruleset bound zealot type though. Not a philosophical thinker type who can appreciate or understand change and ideals. It isn't about questioning the religion, but more about questioning everything. The Qunari are like absolute zero in this respect. They question nothing because that is not the demand of the Qun.

Others in Thedas constantly question everything. From the Chantry having different beliefs throughout the Andrastian faith to the Apostates and Circles and Templars and Mages who do question their station and their roles.

I think Fenris' connection to the Qunari too has to do with the fact that he sees them much like slaves. Much like he was. Stuck in a role without questioning and no seeming way out. It is kind of shocking how much sympathy he has for Saarebas (a mage!). He remarks on the blind loyalty and servitude and how he knows it well. I think that his interest with the Qunari even as a slave stemmed from that.

Personally I think a lot of Fenris' knowledge of the Qun is Denarius-taught. You have to remember that they're fighting a war and Denarius is a Magister. that means he has some weight in politics in Tevinter, because he's got the power to back it up (not that we get to see it ). Mind you it might not be a -lot- of power, but theres proably enough there that should he have to travel to Saharon (which if you remember, Fenris tells you that's how he originall escaped, was by accidentaly being left behind there) someone would have to speak for him. Remember, the quinari don't deal with mages. They cut their tongues out and sew their mouths shut so they can't poison peoples minds.

Thus it would be in Denarius' best intrest to have his Bodyguard taught to speak and understand Quinari -- even if he doesn't read, and only knows enough to ask where the bathroom is and how much for this wheel of cheese. Once on the path to learning a language you can easily pick up more as you go along, and that would have lent to him knowing a great deal more about the culture then.. oooohhh anyone not from the only country left still warring with the Quinari

[Arquen]

I figured that was pretty much understood Heiden. Although it is still unclear how much Danarius actually taught to Fenris at all. More than likely he required something of Fenris and got one of the other slaves or someone (in my headcanon someone not very nice to slaves) to teach him what he needed to know while at the same time making double sure he didn't feel like he was worth anything.

His actual knowledge of Qun no doubt came from Danarius, but I was focusing more on his seeming interest in them and how he empathizes with the Saarebas and comments on Qunari culture. No doubt part was raw necessary knowledge and training and part was general exposure and interest.

In another note... The Fog Warriors. They obviously weren't Qunari, but what WERE they? I doubt they were mages or apostates because Fenris still harbors so much hate for magic. Then again he was still a slave so being taken in by mages wouldn't have been something different for him. It's one of those grand mysteries I can never hope to solve. Just keeps me up at night. LOL.

[Heidenreich]

The Fog Warriors are made of elves and humans of Seharon who refuse to bow to the Qun, basically. Probably the original natives who've lost their land over the years until they've been forced to live in the jungles. Thus the fog reference, as rain forests are notorious for their lingering, low hanging fogs ;p

Think, the chasnd of the kocari wilds, only less "canabalism to survive" and more "south-american jungle natives"



As for the "pretty much understood" about Denarius instructing Hadrianna to teach Fenris the Quinari language and customs so he could be his voice, you'd be pretty suprised at how many people don't make that connection. It's a big irk for people. Fenris is suposed to be illiterate, how dare he be intelligent!



So every so often I fell it nessisary to remind people that Quinari don't deal with mages, and Tevinters are pretty much consistantly in contact with the Quinari, especially Magisters, who are the ruling power.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 18 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[Arquen]

Word of Gaider on the Fog Warriors: "They're not Tal-Vashoth. They're people native to Seheron, fighting against both the Imperium and the Qunari. What they want is to free the island from the clutches of both empires."

I just meant what WERE they? Sounds like Guerrilla's or just some rebel freedom force or a group of natives like Native American tribes. For some reason they seem more like Native Americans or something. Yet obviously they take in Tevinter refugees. I wonder if they take in Qunari refugees as well. As stated one of those mysteries we just don't know, LOL.

[Ritara]

darkrose wrote...

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

The same here, we were listening about Danarius and how strong and powerful he was through most of the game and then just like that he died in the tavern, i expexted a more complicated and difficult death for Danarius as well <_<

[Annarl]

rita25 wrote...

darkrose wrote...

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

The same here, we were listening about Danarius and how strong and powerful he was through most of the game and then just like that he died in the tavern, i expexted a more complicated and difficult death for Danarius as well <_<

I will agree.  I thought there would be more content involving Danarius.  It should have been a way to tie Fenris to the main storyline better.  If that is important to you.  (I'll take Fenris anyway I can get him. ) But then again the whole third act was disappointing story wise

[Heidenreich]

omearaee wrote...

rita25 wrote...

darkrose wrote...

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

The same here, we were listening about Danarius and how strong and powerful he was through most of the game and then just like that he died in the tavern, i expexted a more complicated and difficult death for Danarius as well <_<

I will agree.  I thought there would be more content involving Danarius.  It should have been a way to tie Fenris to the main storyline better.  If that is important to you.  (I'll take Fenris anyway I can get him. ) But then again the whole third act was disappointing story wise

See, I don't think so. Denarius doesn't nessisarly have to be uber powerful. He just has to make people -think- he is. On top of which, he's made Fenris believe he is, which is half the battle. Hawke, by the time they meet, is usually strong and powerful enough.

ON TOP OF WHICH, Varric is telling the story, and Denarius isn't particualrly important to the story, and besides Varric is bad at explaining combat --- thus exploding bodies ;p

[Arquen]

Agree with Heiden. I never really wanted some kind of boss battle from Danarius. I always assumed he was a powerful magister, but that isn't really anything more than a challenge for Hawke and co.

None of the companion's battles are really that difficult. I think the worst one is Merrill's Pride demon fight. Even then it isn't an epic battle of epic proportions. I find the Danarius battle quite satisfying if only because Fenris MAKES it so. I didn't want a slow agonizing, groan groan (omg die already dude!) kind of death. Nope, Fenris just sort of swaggers right up to him with that "YOU ARE SO DEAD" face, and "you are no longer my master..." *visceral gutting noises and bloodspray* Me: "damn straight! F that guy!" LOL.

I mean....

[Annarl]

It's not that I want some epic boss battle... the battle is very easy but the scene with Fenris is nice. It's just... dull or disappointing would be a better word, it's one small encounter. After all the building up Fenris does. Danarius is a magister which denotes a mage with power besides what he is able to do to Fenris indicates a man with some skills not just some side show mage.   

As for the Varric excuse that is well, weak since Bioware is using him to tell their story and I hope Bioware doesn't use it. Yeah, it's all Varric's fault.

I just didn't think it was very well done.  I didn't think most of Act 3 was well done anyways.  But to those who did, great:wizard: I hope I didn't sound to harsh...it's hard to get tone across on the internet.:happy:

Modifié par omearaee, 18 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Well at Gamescom Bioware hinted that we'll be getting some DLC that expands upon the ending of Act III. Gideon Emery better get used to things in Canada, it doesn't sound like he's leaving anytime soon.

[darkrose]

Arquen wrote...

Agree with Heiden. I never really wanted some kind of boss battle from Danarius. I always assumed he was a powerful magister, but that isn't really anything more than a challenge for Hawke and co.

None of the companion's battles are really that difficult. I think the worst one is Merrill's Pride demon fight. Even then it isn't an epic battle of epic proportions. I find the Danarius battle quite satisfying if only because Fenris MAKES it so. I didn't want a slow agonizing, groan groan (omg die already dude!) kind of death. Nope, Fenris just sort of swaggers right up to him with that "YOU ARE SO DEAD" face, and "you are no longer my master..." *visceral gutting noises and bloodspray* Me: "damn straight! F that guy!" LOL.

I didn't want an epic boss battle, but I wanted to see some glowing and some actual "I'm going to stick my hand in your chest and make you suffer for the last 5 seconds of your life" rather than "*slap* *dead*" Watching Fenris go after Gascard du Puis was more emotionally satisfying to me than him taking out his nemesis.

[UrsulaCousland]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Well at Gamescom Bioware hinted that we'll be getting some DLC that expands upon the ending of Act III. Gideon Emery better get used to things in Canada, it doesn't sound like he's leaving anytime soon.

I've been looking for transcripts or something today - good to hear! 

They (BW) have certainly been in a hint-droppy mood lately. Hopefully this means more content (and more Fenris!)
 
Edit for Quote tag FAIL. #Ihatequotetags

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 18 août 2011 - 08:59 .

[UrsulaCousland]

darkrose wrote...

Arquen wrote...

Agree with Heiden. I never really wanted some kind of boss battle from Danarius. I always assumed he was a powerful magister, but that isn't really anything more than a challenge for Hawke and co.

None of the companion's battles are really that difficult. I think the worst one is Merrill's Pride demon fight. Even then it isn't an epic battle of epic proportions. I find the Danarius battle quite satisfying if only because Fenris MAKES it so. I didn't want a slow agonizing, groan groan (omg die already dude!) kind of death. Nope, Fenris just sort of swaggers right up to him with that "YOU ARE SO DEAD" face, and "you are no longer my master..." *visceral gutting noises and bloodspray* Me: "damn straight! F that guy!" LOL.

I didn't want an epic boss battle, but I wanted to see some glowing and some actual "I'm going to stick my hand in your chest and make you suffer for the last 5 seconds of your life" rather than "*slap* *dead*" Watching Fenris go after Gascard du Puis was more emotionally satisfying to me than him taking out his nemesis.

I have to agree with this. The 'going to make you suffer' factor with Gascard was far greater - and Danarius certainly earned it as much or more IMO. 

Of course, there is something to be said for Fenris being so caught up in the victory he just kills Danarius straight away with no thought involved. It's hard to say. I do agree, though. There's soooo much buildup to "I want this guy DEAD (then let's bring him back and kill him AGAIN)" that  it feels like the final confrontation is over too fast.

But, he dies at Fenris's hand and I am always happy enough to see that that I still get a thrill out of seeing that bastard get what's coming to him.

[Heidenreich]

Gamescon gave us info on another Item pack(next week), and another legacy length, if not longer, dlc coming "possibly" later on this year.

That being said, I want my romance flag for Fenris fixed in Legacy. ;/

Modifié par Heidenreich, 18 août 2011 - 10:26 .

[SurrealSadi]

rita25 wrote...

darkrose wrote...

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

The same here, we were listening about Danarius and how strong and powerful he was through most of the game and then just like that he died in the tavern, i expexted a more complicated and difficult death for Danarius as well <_<

Here's the thing. You JUST kicked his arse in a fight. He had to cast a lot of stuff to summon all those nasties he throws at you(Shades and demons), so he's worn out, and then beaten to a pulp by the person who killed the ARISHOK only 3 years ago. By that point, he's no threat to Fenris.

[Ineffable Igor]

I think it says something very interesting about Fenris's development that the death of Danarius is so fast.  It shows how far Fenris has come, that this man who used to control him utterly has become so completely powerless and insignificant.  It's extremely visceral, I love it when he lifts him by the throat, says "You are no longer my master!" and just rips out his jugular.  That's the moment when it feels like he's finally breaking free from everything that's been holding him back for the whole game.  I remember doing a fist pump the first time I played it.  It's like he doesn't even need to make him suffer because by killing him he's ripping off the band-aid of hatred and finally moving on.  If that metaphor makes any sense whatsoever.  

Modifié par Ineffable Igor, 18 août 2011 - 11:08 .

[tsunderes]

darkrose wrote...

I just did "Alone" and once again...I'm a little disappointed. Danarius' death was rather anticlimactic. I wanted to see some full-on magical glowing chest-punch action there!

I'm reading a fantastic fic right now on tumblr that elaborates on that quest, actually

http://caiterhe.tumb...gged/fanfiction

just scroll down for part 1

[FieryDove]

Heidenreich wrote...

That being said, I want my romance flag for Fenris fixed in Legacy. ;/

I don't think legacy will get patched. Very few people know or care that some of the Hawke 1vs.1 companion and Fenris dialogue is bugged. Not to mention other stuff that is recorded but isn't firing.

/Major sad face

[ReiSilver]

FieryDove wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

That being said, I want my romance flag for Fenris fixed in Legacy. ;/

I don't think legacy will get patched. Very few people know or care that some of the Hawke 1vs.1 companion and Fenris dialogue is bugged. Not to mention other stuff that is recorded but isn't firing.

/Major sad face

Maker NOOOOOOOOOO

[Ineffable Igor]

ReiSilver wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

That being said, I want my romance flag for Fenris fixed in Legacy. ;/

I don't think legacy will get patched. Very few people know or care that some of the Hawke 1vs.1 companion and Fenris dialogue is bugged. Not to mention other stuff that is recorded but isn't firing.

/Major sad face

Maker NOOOOOOOOOO

*Headdesk*