55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Cosmochyck]

Heidenreich wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

See, my Angel is just that.. fanatic, about Mage freedom. Mind you, she wasn't until she met Anders, and head canon has her sitting on Anders desk in the early years of Kirkwall, just talking and talking with him about mage freedom and telling stories of her father and..

See, this is why in my head-canon Anders is over the top jealous of Fenris, because even though she and Anders are like, bff on crack, beyond initial intrest, she just .. gravitates towards Fenris, and it drives him insane.

*nod*

I could see that so clearly in my head.

Fenris: Why are you even talking to him?
Anders: Because she cares what happens to mages. She has an open mind.
Fenris: @#$% you!
Anders: @#$% you, too!
Angel: Boys, boys... Will you grow up, already?

LOVE the art!  And I STILL don't find Anders attractive....maybe I just love the pointy armor...

[Heidenreich]

Cosmochyck wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

See, my Angel is just that.. fanatic, about Mage freedom. Mind you, she wasn't until she met Anders, and head canon has her sitting on Anders desk in the early years of Kirkwall, just talking and talking with him about mage freedom and telling stories of her father and..

See, this is why in my head-canon Anders is over the top jealous of Fenris, because even though she and Anders are like, bff on crack, beyond initial intrest, she just .. gravitates towards Fenris, and it drives him insane.

*nod*

I could see that so clearly in my head.

Fenris: Why are you even talking to him?
Anders: Because she cares what happens to mages. She has an open mind.
Fenris: @#$% you!
Anders: @#$% you, too!
Angel: Boys, boys... Will you grow up, already?

*snipped most wonderful picture*

LOVE the art!  And I STILL don't find Anders attractive....maybe I just love the pointy armor...

Yamisnuffles made me that <3 It completely sums up my Angel's life. Best friend and boyfriend, who both love her and both hate each other.. and her totally entertaining thoughts of smooshing their faces together for a kiss.. for science, obviously.


See, I think Anders is adorable. I have a thing for noses and scruff. At the end of the day, both boys are worthy of my addoration.

[Cosmochyck]

Heidenreich wrote...


Yamisnuffles made me that <3 It completely sums up my Angel's life. Best friend and boyfriend, who both love her and both hate each other.. and her totally entertaining thoughts of smooshing their faces together for a kiss.. for science, obviously.


See, I think Anders is adorable. I have a thing for noses and scruff. At the end of the day, both boys are worthy of my addoration.

I liked Anders more in Awakenings - I've tried to romance him but that damn broody elf gets me every time...

[Heidenreich]

See, this is where CGC or berelinde or Yami or Surely need to pop in and voice for me my feelings about Anders, because I can't express it nearly as well or clearly as any of the aforementioned ladies can. Arquen understands too, but maybe not quite on the same level because I actually have a dedicated Andersmance canon... mind you a heart-breakingly painful one, but its there none the less.

At the end of the day, Awakening Anders, and DA2 Anders are the same man, just.. older, wiser, and more Justice-ee.



On topic: Drive - Incubus

Sometimes, I feel the fear of uncertainty stinging clear

And I can't help but ask myself how much I let the fear

Take the wheel and steer

It's driven me before

And it seems to have a vague, haunting mass appeal

But lately I'm beginning to find that I

Should be the one behind the wheel



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

With open arms and open eyes yeah



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

I'll be there



So if I decide to waiver my chance to be one of the hive

Will I choose water over wine and hold my own and drive?

It's driven me before

And it seems to be the way that everyone else gets around

But lately I'm beginning to find that

When I drive myself my light is found



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

With open arms and open eyes yeah



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

I'll be there



Would you choose water over wine

Hold the wheel and drive



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

With open arms and open eyes yeah



Whatever tomorrow brings, I'll be there

I'll be there




Very Fenris-ee.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 10 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[berelinde]

Explaining why Anders is lovable is like explaining a joke. You either get it or you don't, and if it's the latter, the explanation may clear up confusion, but it won't make the joke any funnier.

And it's OK, really. If you feel drawn to Fenris to the extent that no other character will do it for you, having someone else come along and try to make you see the other side is just going to make you dig in your heels and love Fenris harder. About the best you can do is reach an understanding where you can at least appreciate the character on a platonic level. And it's with that in mind that I offer the following.

Awakening!Anders was just as broken as DA2!Anders, he was just better at compensating and "acting normal". He used humor to deflect attention from his faults, insecurities, and the seething hatred he felt toward those who tore him away from his family, oppressed him, and made him a prisoner for life. But hey, he was funny. Many deeply troubled people are. Once he had Justice on board, he lost the ability to deflect. He could no longer stick his tongue in his cheek and make light of things that trouble him. He has become a very focused creature, obsessing about his pain. And no, it isn't Justice's fault Anders is broken. He always was. It's just that Justice is Truth. Justice will not let him hide behind clever lines or bad puns. So, with his coping mechanism permanently disaled, Anders falls apart even more.

And Anders is very much like Fenris. Both men are irreparably broken, poisoned by their own hatred. Both men still oppose the system that allowed the abuses done to them. And both men seek validation and solace from Hawke.

[mcilhany]

Thank you, Omearee. You seem to feel like I do. I don't think I can do it. I just...don't want to let Heiden and, my new best friend Arq-quen down.

@ Arquen. Take it as you will. We don't want to make Fenris jealous tho do we? But if this keeps up, we may need to move this conversation to the "everybody's kissing everybody" section.

I'm going to go get a Frappe.

[Annarl]

berelinde wrote...

Explaining why Anders is lovable is like explaining a joke. You either get it or you don't, and if it's the latter, the explanation may clear up confusion, but it won't make the joke any funnier.

And it's OK, really. If you feel drawn to Fenris to the extent that no other character will do it for you, having someone else come along and try to make you see the other side is just going to make you dig in your heels and love Fenris harder. About the best you can do is reach an understanding where you can at least appreciate the character on a platonic level. And it's with that in mind that I offer the following.

Awakening!Anders was just as broken as DA2!Anders, he was just better at compensating and "acting normal". He used humor to deflect attention from his faults, insecurities, and the seething hatred he felt toward those who tore him away from his family, oppressed him, and made him a prisoner for life. But hey, he was funny. Many deeply troubled people are. Once he had Justice on board, he lost the ability to deflect. He could no longer stick his tongue in his cheek and make light of things that trouble him. He has become a very focused creature, obsessing about his pain. And no, it isn't Justice's fault Anders is broken. He always was. It's just that Justice is Truth. Justice will not let him hide behind clever lines or bad puns. So, with his coping mechanism permanently disaled, Anders falls apart even more.

And Anders is very much like Fenris. Both men are irreparably broken, poisoned by their own hatred. Both men still oppose the system that allowed the abuses done to them. And both men seek validation and solace from Hawke.

It's funny I like Anders!  I totally agree with the bolded statement.  In fact, I care about Anders character a lot and wish I could save him or help him more.  It's his romance I dislike.  It's too...intense for lack of a better word.  It reminds me of a old (back in my high school-collage era) ex-boyfriend of mine, he became sort of... stalker light.  I had a hard time getting rid of him:blink:  He would say the same sort of intense things Anders does while in the romance.  So for me it's a no go every time I try.  Bad memories.

For me Fenris is the character I am more drawn too.  And that was a first, I generally don't go for elves.  Until I saw Ioverth and wow :wub:but I'll keep that for another forum.  But the strange part is in DAO I prefer Zervan's romance over Alistair's, not because of the characters, I mean Alistair is a sweetie but I love Zervan's romance arc.  He grows so much as a person in the romance (like Morrigan which is my favourite DAO romance).  Love and having a relationship become important to him, so much so he makes a stand and is willing to walk away if you don't return his committment. I love that.  So I guess for me, I'm drawn to the growth in a relationship.  Well, besides the eyes.

Modifié par omearaee, 10 septembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[Annarl]

mcilhany wrote...

Thank you, Omearee. You seem to feel like I do. I don't think I can do it. I just...don't want to let Heiden and, my new best friend Arq-quen down.

@ Arquen. Take it as you will. We don't want to make Fenris jealous tho do we? But if this keeps up, we may need to move this conversation to the "everybody's kissing everybody" section.

I'm going to go get a Frappe.

I have sworn a dozen times I will Rivalmance Fenris but in the end I don't.  It's the eyes, I love those big green eyes:wub:

[UrsulaCousland]

omearaee wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Explaining why Anders is lovable is like explaining a joke. You either get it or you don't, and if it's the latter, the explanation may clear up confusion, but it won't make the joke any funnier.

*snip*

Awakening!Anders was just as broken as DA2!Anders, he was just better at compensating and "acting normal". He used humor to deflect attention from his faults, insecurities, and the seething hatred he felt toward those who tore him away from his family, oppressed him, and made him a prisoner for life. But hey, he was funny. Many deeply troubled people are. Once he had Justice on board, he lost the ability to deflect. He could no longer stick his tongue in his cheek and make light of things that trouble him. He has become a very focused creature, obsessing about his pain. And no, it isn't Justice's fault Anders is broken. He always was. It's just that Justice is Truth. Justice will not let him hide behind clever lines or bad puns. So, with his coping mechanism permanently disaled, Anders falls apart even more.

And Anders is very much like Fenris. Both men are irreparably broken, poisoned by their own hatred. Both men still oppose the system that allowed the abuses done to them. And both men seek validation and solace from Hawke.

It's funny I like Anders!  I totally agree with the bolded statement.  In fact, I care about Anders character a lot and wish I could save him or help him more.  It's his romance I dislike.  It's too...intense for lack of a better word.  It reminds me of a old (back in my high school-collage era) ex-boyfriend of mine, he became sort of... stalker light.  I had a hard time getting rid of him:blink:  He would say the same sort of intense things Anders does while in the romance.  So for me it's a no go every time I try.  Bad memories.

*snip*

 Love and having a relationship become important to him, so much so he makes a stand and is willing to walk away if you don't return his committment. I love that.  So I guess for me, I'm drawn to the growth in a relationship.  Well, besides the eyes.

Quoting with snips because typing 1 handed sucks. (Feeling a LOT better though!) And to whoever asked, traditional bike not motorcycle. 

Omearaee, you expressed how I feel about Anders very well, down to the reminds-me-of-a-creepy-ex I still try to avoid. I totally feel for Anders, and I do feel a certain amount of sorrow for how damaged he is. However, Fenris is also deeply damaged, grows a lot as a person, and doesn't have the creepy vibe, so he's my romance of choice.  

I hope to do Anders justice (pardon the pun) in Common Ground. He is important to the story.

What you say about Zev has me jonesing to play DA:O again. I never romamced him before, but now, hearing this repeatedly from FenFans, I clearly need to if/when I replay it.  

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:03 .

[berelinde]

Glad you're on the mend.

The creeper ex thing doesn't bother me anymore. Twenty years ago, it would have made me run for therapy, but now, it's somebody else's life.

A lot of it depends on what kind of a Hawke you make up. My canon Hawke feels isolated and alone. He was a little too uninhibited about using magic in public as a child, so Malcolm and Leandra kept him away from other children as a way to prevent him from exposing himself and Bethany to the templars. So Anders is the first person he has ever met who he can be open with. He doesn't have to hide, he doesn't have to lie, he doesn't have to pretend to be someone he isn't. And no matter what he says or does, Anders understands because he's been there, too. So yeah, with a Hawke like that, creeper-ness is a total non-issue.

If only I could come up with a Hawke that could love Fenris enough to overcome the abandonment thing. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen, so they all seem to move on to Anders or Isabela. Edit: Fenris is still a cool character, and a lot of my Hawkes want to help him, but, well, not everyone is drawn to the same characters.

Modifié par berelinde, 10 septembre 2011 - 06:44 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've never had the creepy ex. I have, however, had the kind-of-emotionally-distant, sometimes doesn't initiate contact for months on end, doesn't want to talk about things ex. So... you can see why I slightly prefer Anders. (It also explains why most of my Hawkes at least initiate the relationship with Fenris, but tend to drop it after his disappearing act.) In general, intensity I can handle, detachment makes me crazy.

In a lot of ways I think Anders is sort of a warning sign for Anders. If you're freaked out by his intensity, you shouldn't be with him anyway. Good! Crisis averted! If he's alive at the end of the game, send him off to find my Warden, who will fix him up properly.

It's funny, but stills of Fenris don't do as much for me (unless they show his arms. unf. Dose arm cutouts.) Show me him in motion though, and I'm lost. HIs posture, his expressive shoulders, the way he angles his head when he talks, his hands. It's amazing how distinct they've made the two LI boys' movement sets. I once saw a character swap video with Anders and Fenris's intro scenes swapped and it just looked so wrong. Especially Anders leaning up against the wall outside the mansion. I almost cracked up. Oh honey, only Fenris can pull that move off.

[mcilhany]

Me too Omearaee. It's those Eyes.


On the Anders topic, I found there to be discrepancies. But, they had upgraded and developed Anders to a point where I could live with it. I very well might have stayed with him if he didn't act so generalizing and dull at the end. Fenris, on the other hand, just gets better and better I think. He just continues to give you reasons to love him, where as with Anders, I'm like...hm did I do the right thing here? He just doesn't make you feel so good, all through the third act and an especially anticlimactic ending. I will say I love that scene where he marches up to Merrill in Hawkes apartment and scolds her. Anders is so damned cute and funny, and yes loveable...but...I need that love returned.

Anders is a gorgeous man. In Awakenings I was not too keen on his looks, he seemed too pointy and I muuuuuch prefered Nathaniel. However, I will give the developers credit: they ... they made him absolutely gorgeous. Those striking brown eyes along with that strawberry blonde hair... I want to write a song. My Strawberry Blonde. something like that.

Whyyyyy is he in so much pain. I need to know. He saaaaaved Justice. But why has Justice changed so? That's where the discrepancy is for me. Justice waaaants love. It is like the only thing he wants in Awakenings, and I am mad as hell that Cristof's wife wouldn't have him. I really didn't like that part of the story. Justice said it was magic that kept him alive in Cristof's body, so couldn't magic also keep Cristof's body intact? I think that should have been the case, and that he should have married Cristof's wife. It would be like having Cristof back because he had fused himself with the body and memories. I'm, well I'm upset with Aura (is that her name?) rejecting him like that how could she?

I suppose sure, after being treated like that both him and Anders were angry. What I fantasize doing so damned often is talking with Justice while Anders is asleep and saying there is enough love in me for both of them. And therefore, Justice will never lose Hawkes love. That way, he will get calm again like he was in Awakenings, and not be so vengeful any more.

The new voice for Anders was also a huuuuuge upgrade. I love the new guy for him. Is he Brekker too? I just did the Brekker scene again yesterday and I think it's him. The old Anders is now playing Cullen, which I too am very satisfied with. How he grins and talks about the Warden is a little wierd, but I hope they develop him more. He's already passionate, but it needs to be taken to the next level.

I had to settle for a Pellegrino. I love those spring waters. Probably better for me anyway.

[Nilfalasiel]

mcilhany wrote...

Whyyyyy is he in so much pain. I need to know. He saaaaaved Justice. But why has Justice changed so? That's where the discrepancy is for me. Justice waaaants love. It is like the only thing he wants in Awakenings, and I am mad as hell that Cristof's wife wouldn't have him. I really didn't like that part of the story. Justice said it was magic that kept him alive in Cristof's body, so couldn't magic also keep Cristof's body intact? I think that should have been the case, and that he should have married Cristof's wife. It would be like having Cristof back because he had fused himself with the body and memories. I'm, well I'm upset with Aura (is that her name?) rejecting him like that how could she?

Unfortunately, Anders did anything but save Justice. Justice offered the merger to help mages, because he was powerless to do anything without a host, but Anders' anger about the situation warped him into Vengeance.

Justice, originally, only wants *gasp* justice. He's a spirit of the Fade, and spirits, just as demons, are single-minded beings. They want the one thing their nature is determined by. Which is why Justice couldn't just leave the mage issue alone.

Problem is, spending time in Kristoff's body already started to warp him, because he had access to Kristoff's memories and began to feel envy for the mortal world. That's something a demon feels, not a spirit. And it's entirely possible that part of Justice's motivation for seeking a new host after Kristoff's death was that he wanted to stay in the mortal world.

Of course, whether he wanted to stay or not is also a bit of a moot point, because he doesn't really have a choice: among the people he's met, no one seems to know how to return him to the Fade.

As for Aura rejecting him...uh, well, he was inhabiting the decomposing corpse of her husband. Not only was he not Kristoff (Justice does not understand the mortal world, not in Awakening, not in DA2, which is part of his tragedy), he was parading around in a dead body. Could you really imagine having to live with the dead body of someone you used to love, while something completely foreign lives inside it? Justice never "fused" with Kristoff: he could only access his memories and be baffled by them. It's a bit like someone moving into an abandoned house: all the old furniture is still there, but you're not familiar with it.

I suppose sure, after being treated like that both him and Anders were angry. What I fantasize doing so damned often is talking with Justice while Anders is asleep and saying there is enough love in me for both of them. And therefore, Justice will never lose Hawkes love. That way, he will get calm again like he was in Awakenings, and not be so vengeful any more.

If only it were that simple. While Justice may have been troubled by Kristoff's memories of his wife, he is no longer the same spirit once he merges with Anders. He's Vengeance, and he's just as single-minded as he used to be before being ripped from the Fade, if not more. All he wants is to punish those he considers to be in the wrong. Unfortunately for him, human beings simply can't live up to his ideal vision of what's right and what's wrong.

Ahem. Back to your regularly scheduled Fenris. Not sure I'd say he's as irreparably broken as Anders: he manages to move on and beyond his past, after all, even if he maintains a distrust of mages. Anders...nnnooot quite (understatement of the decade).

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[mcilhany]

I reserve the right to stand by my own opinion, but thanks for responding.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

mcilhany wrote...
Whyyyyy is he in so much pain. I need to know. He saaaaaved Justice. But why has Justice changed so? That's where the discrepancy is for me. Justice waaaants love. It is like the only thing he wants in Awakenings, and I am mad as hell that Cristof's wife wouldn't have him. I really didn't like that part of the story. Justice said it was magic that kept him alive in Cristof's body, so couldn't magic also keep Cristof's body intact? I think that should have been the case, and that he should have married Cristof's wife. It would be like having Cristof back because he had fused himself with the body and memories. I'm, well I'm upset with Aura (is that her name?) rejecting him like that how could she?

I suppose sure, after being treated like that both him and Anders were angry. What I fantasize doing so damned often is talking with Justice while Anders is asleep and saying there is enough love in me for both of them. And therefore, Justice will never lose Hawkes love. That way, he will get calm again like he was in Awakenings, and not be so vengeful any more.
.

I agree with you on the Justice thing. It actually bothers me that Hawke can't address that, either. "Ok, you say he used to be a good spirit... well maybe we can fix that. Maybe we can do something." Anders' reaction to what has happened to him is completely in character; it's Justice's transition that doesn't really make any real sense. I can justify it with elaborate No-Prize explanations, but the answer isn't actually there in the text, and in fact goes very strongly against the implications inherent in Awakening.

In Awakening, Justice was growing, was learning to accept things about the real world. Listen to his banters with Velanna (something few people end up hearing normally, because almost nobody seems to use both those characters, hehe.) At the end, what does he suggest as atonement for killing all those humans? Trying to teach humans about elves. That's what he thinks is justice, then. It's amazing.  Anyone who says that Justice was always harsh and unyielding obviously didn't use him much, or talk with him, or hear his developing banters over time. He obviously was becoming... I'd almost say mortal. Definitely not demonic.

This is why I want to get him back to someone who knew him when he was making progress. It's why one of my Fenris romances may end up being my canon Hawke (I'm constantly waffling there)... because I want to send Anders and Justice back to my Mahariel. She won't be afraid of Vengeance, either, because Elgar'nan, god of Vengeance, is the patriarch of the beneficial gods in the Elven pantheon. Also, because Mahariel loves revenge and hates the Chantry.

There are some plausible reasons for Justice to backslide this significantly: overwhelmed by the emotions of a living being, hurt at Anders shock when Justice merely saved him from some people who were obviously going to murder him, etc.... but without any of them formally acknowledged in text, it still bugs me.This is one of those areas where Hawke frustrates me. Anders actually tries to start having some of these discussions... about Vengeance and Justice, about being a different kind of abomination, with some of the other companions, but Hawke never discusses this with him or confronts him about it. Argh.

To bring it back to Fenris... someone brought up how similar they are earlier, and I agree (Varric points this out in Legacy, too, which is awesome and adorable and ugh Varric). The one big difference for me, though, is that Anders' hatred is primarily directed towards people who are actually directly affiliated with the group that is oppressing him and people like him... people who have chosen that particular affiliation, in most cases, whereas Fenris hates people who are born a certain way, regardless of their complicitness in his actual mistreatment. That's what my Hawkes want to work with him on: it's OK to hate Tevinter, and Magisters, and hating slavers is GREAT. But hating mages just goes too far. Specify your hatred is all I'm saying, Fenris, hone it to a useful weapon against those who are truly harming others, and don't loose your venom on the innocent. We can go assasinate some magisters later, if you want. Otherwise, we'll just continue killing slavers. It can be like a fun little hobby.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In Awakening, Justice was growing, was learning to accept things about the real world. Listen to his banters with Velanna (something few people end up hearing normally, because almost nobody seems to use both those characters, hehe.) At the end, what does he suggest as atonement for killing all those humans? Trying to teach humans about elves. That's what he thinks is justice, then. It's amazing.  Anyone who says that Justice was always harsh and unyielding obviously didn't use him much, or talk with him, or hear his developing banters over time. He obviously was becoming...I'd almost say mortal. Definitely not demonic.

That's the difference between Justice and Vengeance though: Vengeance would probably have suggested blood for blood. Unyielding doesn't necessarily mean violent, it means not accepting compromise. Justice stayed in my party 100% of the time after I recruited him in Awakening (not Velanna though, I'll admit), and he certainly didn't seem to be completely up to speed on human matters, even though he was trying to wrap his head around them. It's the fact that he felt envy that bothered me. Envy is not a good emotion. I'm not saying he was turning into a demon in Awakening, because he wasn't. I'm just saying that, while he was learning about the mortal world (which is good...also, he didn't really have a choice), he was also undergoing negative effects from it. Coveting something which wasn't his and could never be. Still, in the end (depending on what you choose regarding the Keep and Amaranthine), he's able to give Aura back her husband's body, despite the negative emotions his sojourn inside it may have created.

Again, that's good. It's only the fact that he offers to merge with Anders that's a bad decision. Mostly in retrospect, but still. When neither of the parties involved have any experience of what they're about to do, well...it can go very wrong. And it does.

This is why I want to get him back to someone who knew him when he was making progress. It's why one of my Fenris romances may end up being my canon Hawke (I'm constantly waffling there)... because I want to send Anders and Justice back to my Mahariel. She won't be afraid of Vengeance, either, because Elgar'nan, god of Vengeance, is the patriarch of the beneficial gods in the Elven pantheon. Also, because Mahariel loves revenge and hates the Chantry.

There are some plausible reasons for Justice to backslide this significantly: overwhelmed by the emotions of a living being, hurt at Anders shock when Justice merely saved him from some people who were obviously going to murder him, etc.... but without any of them formally acknowledged in text, it still bugs me.This is one of those areas where Hawke frustrates me. Anders actually tries to start having some of these discussions... about Vengeance and Justice, about being a different kind of abomination, with some of the other companions, but Hawke never discusses this with him or confronts him about it. Argh.

Hawke does fail a lot in the "constructive solutions" department, sometimes.

As for Justice's change, I guess it's so shocking because Anders never seemed quite THAT angry at the mage issue in Awakening. He deflected the problem and was basically "well, what can I do about it?". He had a more selfish approach on the surface, but I'm guessing he really was upset about it, deep down. That seems to be the running opinion in the Anders thread, anyway. And when you bottle strong feelings up for too long, well, it's never healthy. I don't think either he or Justice expected it would have such a dramatic effect (because what did either of them know about letting a spirit into a live host?), but it did.

And the problem is, I'm not sure whether Vengeance is still capable of having a discussion about things the way Justice did. Even if you brought him back to the Warden. Justice may have been making progress, but by the end of DA2, I think Vengeance is pretty damn far gone. If he hadn't been warped, maybe it would be easier. But would Vengeance even recognise the Warden?

To bring it back to Fenris... someone brought up how similar they are earlier, and I agree (Varric points this out in Legacy, too, which is awesome and adorable and ugh Varric). The one big difference for me, though, is that Anders' hatred is primarily directed towards people who are actually directly affiliated with the group that is oppressing him and people like him... people who have chosen that particular affiliation, in most cases, whereas Fenris hates people who are born a certain way, regardless of their complicitness in his actual mistreatment. That's what my Hawkes want to work with him on: it's OK to hate Tevinter, and Magisters, and hating slavers is GREAT. But hating mages just goes too far. Specify your hatred is all I'm saying, Fenris, hone it to a useful weapon against those who are truly harming others, and don't loose your venom on the innocent. We can go assasinate some magisters later, if you want. Otherwise, we'll just continue killing slavers. It can be like a fun little hobby.

Well, they could both do with a bit of loosening up. But yes, Fenris' personal experience pushes him towards prejudice. I'd wager it's still easier to reason with him though. There's no one to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[mcilhany]

Oh my gosh CGG, you really are truly brilliant. You are correct, as John McClaughlan would say. That was beautiful. I'm going to read your post over again now to make sure I understood everything. You are sooo deep.

You guys are so smart. I swear, the last forum I was on bored me to tears and had all kinds of losers on it. I just gave up. There wasn't any point any more (of course I did not tell them I thought they were lame). It's like there was just nothing there. Grew frustrating for me. But here... seems to be a very different story.

I like Berelinde's thoughts on Anders. Very good take.

Omearaee, I am so sorry you had a bad experience. I hope you can get past it and more into the passion of Anders. I love the things he says. I would drown him and me in blood to keep himmmm safe. I'm lost where whether he actually wants to die or not. There's something I could really use some help with. Nifelasiel, what is your insight on that? And anyone else who has thoughts on that.

Nifel, I think he does save Justice. He says in one of the first dialogs with him that Justice would have died if left there alone in the Blackmarsh. There's not going to be much that is going to convince me otherwise about that. That's more why I'm mad at Aura. Wasn't nice to do to him.

Also, I know the inhabiting body part wasn't exactly the same for Cristof as for Anders. Also, I can't agree with you about the decaying body thing. Necromancy could keep the body in the state of 2 weeks after Cristof's death. I think Necromancy is one of the coolest magics out there, in any realm of fantasy. It irritates me that they make it out to be evil in this particular universe. Advanced necromancy could also restore Cristof's body to much closer to his actual time of death if not the actual time of death. I firmly believe this. So, as I said in my other post, I didn't like this part of the story. Maybe we should just leave it at that, because I'm not likely to change my mind about it. I welcome your insight on whether Anders wants to die or not though, as I am up in the air about that.

[Nilfalasiel]

mcilhany wrote...

Nifel, I think he does save Justice. He says in one of the first dialogs with him that Justice would have died if left there alone in the Blackmarsh. There's not going to be much that is going to convince me otherwise about that. That's more why I'm mad at Aura. Wasn't nice to do to him.

The thing is: how does something that's not alive to begin with die? Justice was able to stay in the mortal world without a host after leaving Kristoff's body, so I'm guessing it wasn't such a pressing issue.

Also, I know the inhabiting body part wasn't exactly the same for Cristof as for Anders. Also, I can't agree with you about the decaying body thing. Necromancy could keep the body in the state of 2 weeks after Cristof's death. I think Necromancy is one of the coolest magics out there, in any realm of fantasy. It irritates me that they make it out to be evil in this particular universe. Advanced necromancy could also restore Cristof's body to much closer to his actual time of death if not the actual time of death. I firmly believe this. So, as I said in my other post, I didn't like this part of the story. Maybe we should just leave it at that, because I'm not likely to change my mind about it. I welcome your insight on whether Anders wants to die or not though, as I am up in the air about that.

It's never really stated anywhere that there's a spell that does that...Justice also has a banter with Velanna where she says that his skin is peeling and that he smells. And he says that nothing can be done about it. In another banter, she asks him what he will do once Kristoff's body has fully decayed. So it does seem to be a genuine concern. Here's the link to all the banters Justice has with other companions, if you want to take a look.

He also tells Anders that demons are spirits that have been perverted by their desires. That's where I was getting my concern about envy from. Envy is a form of desire. And Justice admits to feeling it. Ie. not good.

Concerning whether Anders wants to die, I'd say yes, by the end of DA2, he does. Or at least, he accepts that there's a very high possibility that he will. He understands that blowing up the Chantry is a crime, and he considers death to be a fitting punishment for the lives he took. Whether your Hawke agrees with this or believes that he's better off atoning by helping to resolve the mess he has created, that's entirely up to you.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[mcilhany]

Yes, but Nifel I don't care about that. Try to think outside the box. They could maaaake a spell, see? If they don't, I won't like it. There it is.

Anders sayyyys Justice would die. That's where I got that.

No I mean in Act 3 does he want to die. I don't care about Act 2.

[Nilfalasiel]

mcilhany wrote...

No I mean in Act 3 does he want to die. I don't care about Act 2.

I never mentioned Act 2. I said "by the end of DA2".

[mcilhany]

oh ok sorry. Thanks :-)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Yeah, by the end of DA2, there are serious questions as to whether or not Justice/Vengeance is still something that can be worked with. Still, I don't write beings off until I've tried everything to help them, so I'd be willing to give it a look. It'd be tons better if the Warden got to Anders within a year or three of his merger, though, but that ship has sailed. Also, my Warden could definitely really love a Justice (or a Vengeance) in an Anders body, as much as she could love an Anders. She really, really loves killing evil people. Like, a lot. When the Chantry blew, somewhere in the distance, Vengeance got a +20 friendship with Mahariel.

As for Vengeance, he's further gone on the Rival path, for sure. The only time he's really unreasonable-seeming on the friendship path is Ella, and that whole thing is another can of worms that I don't want to get into in this thread. I think by the end of DA2 Anders is ready to die, but I think he could be convinced otherwise by someone who cares about him. In my headcanon, unromanced Anders goes to find Mahariel, trusting that if he needs to die, she'll kill him; probably expecting her to kill him for leaving the Wardens. Romanced Anders with a mage-siding Hawke clearly doesn't want to die, if Hawke spares him.

Thedas is a weird, messed up world. In most universes, most of my avatars and protagonists would be strongly against what Anders did... but in Dragon Age, I've never seen any evidence that anyone in power in that entire universe understands anything but blood (except Alistair, and he's only in power because I put him there). And if it's blood they want, then blood they shall have, spilled by an angry elven woman who is always losing everything she cares about. My Hawkes are a bit more optimistic, but I also think that makes them a bit stupid. Heck, in my mind that's the entire lesson of DA2: If you think you can fix things by some method other than blood, you'll end up watching helplessly as everything you care about is destroyed. This is Thedas, honey, it's not the Disc, it's not Narnia, it's not Oz, It's not even our world. It's the mondaythrufriday Dragon Age, and everyone is covered in blood all the time.

The positive value of hatred, vengeance, and bloodshed in Thedas is why the Friendship/Rivalry divide with Fenris frustrates me a great deal. I think he seriously benefits emotionally from having a real friend, but he doesn't benefit mentally as much. He doesn't adapt his perspective, and acknowledge that his particular brand of hate is spectacularly unproductive. That said, subsets of his hate are productive, especially in Thedas. Killing Hadriana is a good thing, killing Danarius is great, I'm even in favor of killing every slaver we meet.

I wish I could tell him "Fenris, I like you, I'll always be here to support you, and honestly I completely support your vendetta against your former master. More power to you there. But the hatred of all mages is just stupid, and you're better than that. That's valuable hatred that could be directed against Danarius."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 septembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[mcilhany]

To CGG: I couldn't agree with you more.

And I see that it is Nil-fal. I'd been spelling it wrong. Nil-fal-asiel.

[mcilhany]

I love it, CGG. Thanks :-)

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Thedas is a weird, messed up world. In most universes, most of my avatars and protagonists would be strongly against what Anders did... but in Dragon Age, I've never seen any evidence that anyone in power in that entire universe understands anything but blood (except Alistair, and he's only in power because I put him there).

Well, Alistair isn't 100% on that either. He'll only understand blood in the case of Loghain, for example. My Aeducan Warden is still bitter about that: she saw making Loghain join the Wardens as both a power game (in true dwarven fashion) and a way to preserve Alistair's image (avoiding a summary execution). But nope, he threw a hissy fit at her.

The positive value of hatred, vengeance, and bloodshed in Thedas is why the Friendship/Rivalry divide with Fenris frustrates me a great deal. I think he seriously benefits emotionally from having a real friend, but he doesn't benefit mentally as much. He doesn't adapt his perspective, and acknowledge that his particular brand of hate is spectacularly unproductive. That said, subsets of his hate are productive, especially in Thedas. Killing Hadriana is a good thing, killing Danarius is great, I'm even in favor of killing every slaver we meet.

I wish I could tell him "Fenris, I like you, I'll always be here to support you, and honestly I completely support your vendetta against your former master. More power to you there. But the hatred of all mages is just stupid, and you're better than that. That's valuable hatred that could be directed against Danarius."

Here's a thought: do you think Fenris would benefit more from being acquainted with the Warden (or, at least, some of the possible Wardens) than with Hawke? Putting aside the fact that Hawke is emotionally more beneficial, as a friend or a lover. For example, would Fenris benefit from knowing a Mahariel or a Tabris? Or heck, even a Surana? I'm picking out the elven origins on purpose here. A Tabris in particular would probably be able to relate to his personal experience quite a bit.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 02:18 .