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[CulturalGeekGirl]

The problem is that Fenris has a pretty negative view of other elves (judging from his short story). I know many Mahariels would be extremely put off by that (Dalish pride is usually big with them). I've also noticed a "touch my friends and SUFFER" pattern among Mahariels I've talked with, and so she wouldn't react well to Fenris's mistreatment of both Anders and Merrill. If she could somehow meet him and get to know and like him before she found out any of those things, it might go Ok. Otherwise, I'm not sure.

Tabris... it depends. I've seen a lot of different interpretations of Tabris: anything from "thank god I'm out of that alienage and can make some kind of life" to "I hate everyone for what life has done to me." In his short story, Fenris wonders to himself why the city elves don't do anything to improve their situation. If he said something like that to most Tabris... it could get ugly, if he was unwilling to apologize immediately. With an especially understanding Tabris in a situation where Fenris was likely to not be too impolitic, I can see some real progress made. Otherwise, I worry.

For Surana, I mostly have my friend's Surana to go on. She's both very in favor of mage rights and very patient and calm, so that might work. She'd certainly be better at arguing for the value of mage freedom than Anders is, and I think she could catch Fenris off-guard rhetorically. She also would press the issue, and not let him run away from it, if at all possible. Still, she'd have little reason to feel any real affection for him, if he persisted in his hatred as long as he seems determined to.

Overall, I think a big issue is that, outside of the context of a blight or a crisis like Awakening, the Wardens have less of a reason to give a crap about Fenris. Even if they picked him up as a companion in a scenario very similar to one of those games, he'd have a very different kind of relationship than he has with Hawke. Fenris's relationship is all about slowly learning to accept Hawke and coming to trust and rely on them more and more, gradually over time. Contrast that with Nathaniel and the Warden: in that case it's pretty much "Obey me and become one of my men, or die/get lost." While it takes a long time to win Nate's respect, his obedience comes pretty quickly, and I think the Warden is used to that, and requires it somewhat. Hawke has the benefit of not having an overarching save the world goal: she can let her companions run off, or mope for a few weeks, or disobey her without jeopardizing something serious... the Warden doesn't have that luxury.

Honestly, I think that a mage Hawke is the best person for Fenris to meet, when it comes to their chances of actually caring for him and getting him to change his views... it's simply the confines of the Friendship/Rivalry system and the limits of game dialogue writing that don't allow her to make the kind of arguments that I'd most like to see.

The one person I'd really like to see Fenris talk to, who I think he would benefit most from meeting properly, is Zevran. Zev has seen every possible aspect of Elven life, from the Dalish to the alienage to the life of the crows the the freedom of traveling with the Warden. He has enough of a sense of humor not to be angered by Fenris's put-downs or arrogance, and is just gentle enough with his humor that he might defuse some of Fenris's anger: Fenris traditionally reacts well to humor. If there's someone who would really sympathize with Fenris's history, it's Zevran. If there's someone who would be completely immune to Fenris's bluntness and insults, it's Zevran. Also, Fenris is hot enough that Zev really wouldn't care what he said to him.

[SurrealSadi]

I missed this conversation, but CGG, you have a great deal of insight, and wrote that up beautifully.

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, I think that a mage Hawke is the best person for Fenris to meet, when it comes to their chances of actually caring for him and getting him to change his views... it's simply the confines of the Friendship/Rivalry system and the limits of game dialogue writing that don't allow her to make the kind of arguments that I'd most like to see.

Yeah, I got the impression you were saying that a Friend!Hawke mostly catered to Fenris' emotional needs, whereas a Rival!Hawke catered more to changing his views on things. So I was just wondering if any of the Wardens could reach a middle ground, by comparison. But if the real issue is the Friendship/Rivalry system, then it's probably difficult to compare. 

It's true that Fenris appears to need a close relationship with someone to actually get influenced by them, but the Warden was able to form pretty close relationships with her/his DAO companions, despite the greater urgency of the situation. Or perhaps it's the fact that Fenris is more on an equal footing with Hawke, whereas a Warden would have a position of superiority? And might stir up unpleasant "master & servant" memories? (cue Depeche Mode...and no, I'm totally not intending anything dodgy here...maybe)

Then again, I can only think of two instances where the Warden actually brings her/his authority to bear with any kind of weight while interacting with companions: Nate, as you mentioned, and Sten. With the others, I don't necessarily feel the power imbalance.

The one person I'd really like to see Fenris talk to, who I think he would benefit most from meeting properly, is Zevran. Zev has seen every possible aspect of Elven life, from the Dalish to the alienage to the life of the crows the the freedom of traveling with the Warden. He has enough of a sense of humor not to be angered by Fenris's put-downs or arrogance, and is just gentle enough with his humor that he might defuse some of Fenris's anger: Fenris traditionally reacts well to humor. If there's someone who would really sympathize with Fenris's history, it's Zevran. If there's someone who would be completely immune to Fenris's bluntness and insults, it's Zevran. Also, Fenris is hot enough that Zev really wouldn't care what he said to him.

That would've been my next proposition. As far as other elves go, Zev would probably be the most interesting of the DAO people for Fenris to get acquainted with.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Arquen]

Venhedis... why do you people always have the good combos when im at work!

I honestly don't think the Warden and Fenris would get on so well. Mostly because of that end of the world story arc. I don't see Fenris as being very willing to get involved with a grand scheme like that. Also, being a loner and the way he is I don't believe a "commander" type like the warden is a very healthy thing for him. The warden has a goal, a direct focus they were thrown into. Resistant to it or not they must assume the role of military commander and I don't see Fenris and his personal story fitting in there.

As far as Zev.... I doubt either him or Fenris would want to sit there and bro!hug it out about their traumatic pasts. They both tend to want to move on. Though the difference lies in perspective. I think Zev is less hateful because he sees what his life and the crows gave him as a gift. Fenris sees it as a curse inflicted on him. While Zev can accept the love the ****s gave him and the training the crows gave him... Fenris only sees the ritual, training, and abuses as a curse brought on by a very specific group of people (magister). So while I see their similarities I doubt Fenris will ever get to that level of acceptance that Zev has because at the core their lives are fundamentally different in freedoms and choices. Plus.. neither one is the talking type about their pasts.

Honestly I don't see Fenris as fitting in with the Da:o setting. Hawke is a rise to championship... a growth from nothing that happens gradually with the support of her companions. They change eachother. Da:o is all about being thrown into a world ending situation and rising to the occasion because you are our only hope... the companions reflect that. Each one having a reason to participate in this larger struggle.

I still think the interactions would be nice to see, but I truly believe Hawke is the better interaction for Fenris. I don't think he would get as close or grow as much or even care as much about the warden.

Phone posted... so kinda half baked and pardon typos!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

People often compare Sten and Nate to Fenris, in terms of them all being the characters whose trust you have to earn. Everyone else is pretty much on Team Warden from minute one, to varying degrees (with Alistair and Anders topping the list). Fenris starts out suspicious of Hawke... suspicious of everyone, really. I don't know why he'd trust the Warden any more quickly, so I sort of assume that the Warden would end up pulling rank on him, Sten-like. I also don't see a compelling reason for Fenris to join the Wardens, or follow them around. I think he'd feel like the Wardens were kind of a trap, even more than Anders did.

Also, the DA:O and A stories take place within a relatively short time: each adventure from start to finish is less than a year. I don't think Fenris would really be capable of opening up that rapidly. One of the advantages Hawke has is that she lives in a city and has no reason to go anywhere, really... she doesn't have to press things. The Warden doesn't really have the luxury of a bunch of free time: her friendships are forged in blood pretty quickly.

Some of this is just circumstance, but there's some fundamental personality differences implied by the kind of choices and opportunities and plots the Warden and Hawke each have available to them.

The Warden is proactive: they decide to do a thing and they do it. They go after what they want, they plan ahead, they make the big call. Hawke is reactive: she watches things happen, and then acts to counteract them. The Warden decides who is going to end the blight, and then ends it. Hawke doesn't blow up the Chantry, but she decides what the result will be. Proactive versus Reactive. I think Fenris needs someone reactive, someone who isn't pushing him to go further and faster than he needs to go. Someone who allows him to make his own way, and then acts as support when he gets in over his head. This allows him to build a sense of his own identity and will, while also learning to trust someone and rely on them. It's pretty much the perfect setup for Fenris.

This is also why I'm conflicted about Anders and Hawke vs. Anders and the Warden. I think Anders actually needs someone more proactive than Hawke. The entire reason he merged with Justice was that he felt like he couldn't do anything to influence his own destiny after the Warden vanished (or left for a while, or whatever it was that lead to him being so stupidly reassigned). Anders is at his best when supporting someone he likes and trusts, who gives his life purpose. That's what he was trying to do with Justice, but it went too far, and cut too deep, and didn't work the way he wanted it. Even so, it's still what he seems to need.

I think Hawke represents the dream of having a normal life for Anders. Hawke is either an mage who has something that resembles a normal life, or the child of a mage who had a normal life. She's the embodiment of Anders' old dream: find a pretty girl, one who accepts you despite your being a mage, and have a normal life (or a pretty boy, natch. I just tend to slip into random genders.) But I think Anders needs someone who will lead him, confront him, help him steer. He's never been the kind of person who can do the kind of things that are being asked of him now, and they're destroying him. With someone to share the burden of action, he might do better... but Hawke is purely reactive, and can't help. It's frustrating to watch, but as one of the only consistent parts of Hawke's behavior between various personalities, I have to assume it's a fundamental part of who Hawke is.

This is why, despite the fact that I prefer Anders, that I gravitate toward him, and romance him more often, I think Fenris and Hawke work better together fundamentally. Anders needs someone who will look at his problems and take action on them, while Fenris needs someone who will let him at least try to solve his own problems, stepping in at key moments if they feel it necessary.

****

As for the Fenris and Zevran thing, I wasn't thinking of them bonding over tragic pasts except to the point that Fenris often yells at people that they don't understand what he's been through, and he couldn't pull that chestnut out on Zevran, not really. If they did discuss their pasts I think it would be more of a very quick laundry list to establish that Zevran was legit, and then continued conversations about moving foreward based on the knowledge that Zev does share some of the perspective. Zev does know what happens when you finally get vengeance and have no idea what to do - he's pretty much the only person who does.

What I think Zevran could offer Fenris is an informed perspective about a lot of things Fenris doesn't know about but assumes he knows about: the Dalish, the daily lives of City elves, the racial imbalances, politics, mages, the blight, Ferelden. Most of the people who try to talk with Fenris about these things are extremely ra-ra about them, and Fenris doesn't react well to that. He reacts better to people who are casual and laid back, like Isabella, Donnic, and Varric. Still, none of them have that elf perspective, and none of them are as universally experienced with the world as Zevran. That's why I see them getting on: I don't think they'd dwell on their histories, but Zev has a history that makes Fenris likely to respect his perspective on things. Zev has experience with the one thing Fenris most wants to know about: building a life after being released from bondage and realizing you have nothing. Finally, Zevran knows a lot about many things that Fenris seems to assume he understands, but that he lacks fundamental understanding about, so talking with Zev would provide Fen with perspectives he needs to hear, in a format that he's more likely to accept them.

Zev is also the DA:O companion who I think would most easily fit in with the residential, relaxed, lived-in life of DA2. He's the only companion who doesn't have a thing he's after, once the game is over. He wants nothing but to hang around with his friend, maybe, if she'll have him. I mean yeah, eventually he's going to have to kill some crows, but that's more just a maintenance thing than a purpose in life. In my mind that interaction would be less about Fenris going to Zevran's world, and more about Zev visiting Fen's.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 septembre 2011 - 04:38 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...

As far as Zev.... I doubt either him or Fenris would want to sit there and bro!hug it out about their traumatic pasts. They both tend to want to move on. Though the difference lies in perspective. I think Zev is less hateful because he sees what his life and the crows gave him as a gift. Fenris sees it as a curse inflicted on him. While Zev can accept the love the ****s gave him and the training the crows gave him... Fenris only sees the ritual, training, and abuses as a curse brought on by a very specific group of people (magister). So while I see their similarities I doubt Fenris will ever get to that level of acceptance that Zev has because at the core their lives are fundamentally different in freedoms and choices. Plus.. neither one is the talking type about their pasts.

Ehh, I'm not sure I agree there. Zev will actually talk about his past quite willingly...if you're asking him about anecdotes and such. Heck, he'll even tell you about his mother readily enough; it's only the topic of Rinna that will give him actual, strong pause. It's just that he won't bemoan what happened to him (again, Rinna being an exception, he's spectacularly vulnerable on that one). He has a "well, this happened, and yeah, I guess it was pretty sh*tty, but hey, there were good things too, and life is so much better now, so why dwell on it?" outlook: he'll tell you the events, but if they were painful, he won't dwell on the pain, but try to find a silver lining. I think that's a very healthy perspective, and one that Fenris could benefit from. As CGG put it, Zev has seen a lot of things, including a lot of things from the elven perspective that Fenris seems to slight, and he has very little prejudice, if any. And prejudice is one of Fenris' big problems.

No, they wouldn't brohug or angst together about their pasts, and Fenris would probably not actively seek Zev out to talk about stuff, but there are things he could totally learn from him, especially given the similarities in their backgrounds.

But I like the insight about the Warden vs Hawke in Fenris' case. It's true that he's probably the one companion who really *needs* a stretch of time to form a meaningful relationship. Sten could fit in that category too, but he keeps it a lot more in the "professional respect" category, which is why it works with the Warden.

I'm guessing the other DA2 companions would have less of a hard time getting along with Wardens. What with the fact that 3 of them had experience with either actual Wardens or potential Wardens (in Merrill's case). But yeah, Fenris needs teh clock, and the Warden be running out of clock all the time (shamelessly stealing the expression from a song, but I like it).

I also agree about Hawke not being such an ideal match for Anders, alas. Some problems need preventive action.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[mcilhany]

@ Nilfalasiel,

I agree with you about those things.

Modifié par mcilhany, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Arcane_Solona]

 First of all, the fact that a Dragon Age character led to a discussion thread of 1765 pages really goes to show just how brilliant bioware (and David Gaider, of course) is in creating games and characters. I have never played a game where the characters (not all of them, mind you) have so much depth, personality, passion, emotion and uniqueness as those in DA (origins and II). Fenris has got to be the most well developed character I have ever had the pleasure of "meeting" and getting to know. I must say that, for me, it wasn't exactly a case of love at first sight--I supported mages through and through in my first playthrough (because I had a crush on Anders and my Hawke was romancing him and because I genuinely felt for the mages), and the number of rivalry points I got from Fenris really PISSED me OFF. I found myself nearly always yelling at him (the TV screen), demanding what his problem was. But, by the end of my first playthrough, I fell for him. The depth, the intensity, the gravity, the angst, the broodiness... it was all too irresistable, especially when contrasted with Anders' complete lack of depth and personality. He is SO annoying, constantly whining about the plight of mages. We get it, you hate templars, could you please shut up already? His romance was the most unsatisfying and shallow romance I have ever seen in an RPG; he never cared about my Hawke. All he cared about was his stupid cause. Urgh! Fenris, on the other hand, is all about you once Act 2 comes along. He adores you, and it is SO obvious and overwhelming. He kind of reminds me of Edward Rochester from Jane Eyre; that serious, dark, broody demeanour, but at the same time, a heart and soul that are so deep and so profoundly passionate, one look from him and you find yourself hypnotised. 
Seriously, Fenris has raised the bar REALLY high, and I'm including real life men here as well.

[mcilhany]

@Arcane_Solona

We are verrry much in agreement about this. Let me tell you a funny story.

I, during the spring of this year, had an accident here at home which caused the first concussion of my life (on that note, I am glad you are feeling better Ursula. You just keep that up now :-)). I was up all day every day for awhile and played Awakenings through a lot more than I intedend to, to get my mind of the pain and disorientation I was experiencing. I grew so hooked on Nathaniel that I wanted to desperately find out what his part was in DA2. I had bought the game close to when it was released but had not intended to play it just yet.

The web wasn't telling me anything, so I broke open the plastic cover on the hint book and was desperately looking for more info. on Nathaniel. That's when I read about the new romantic options. Having grown tired of the blatant feyness of Zevran (Alistair wasn't an option for me because I didn't want to kill Loghain), I wanted a real man...please don't misunderstand, everyone, Zevran grew on me, but the feyness of some of these elves in the DA universe is a little over the top for me.

After reading the hint book, I thought Sebastian would be my goal. How wrong was I? The pictures of Fenris in the book didn't look fey. But I was worried. And Anders was, too, on the questionable side sexually in Awakenings, so I was prepared to be disappointed by him too. I ended up disappointed in him however, from the exact reasons as you! But what happened was, I had Sebastian with me, but after that wine-drinking scene, and my "platonic" conversation with Fenris in the first act I was already madly in love with the inherently seductive elf. So I went back to the first Act. Did all the flirting, etc. and Fenris turned out not at all to be what I was worried about. In fact, I just so new he would be great from the moment he walked around that corner. I won't be able to romance any other character if he is around. He's my first choice; he's devastating.

To touch on what Harle said awhile back...I myself don't like the concept art for Fenris. I prefer the lean, tawniness of how he is in the game. I love everything about him.

Modifié par mcilhany, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:47 .

[Cosmochyck]

mcilhany wrote...

@Arcane_Solona

We are verrry much in agreement about this. Let me tell you a funny story.

I, during the spring of this year, had an accident here at home which caused the first concussion of my life (on that note, I am glad you are feeling better Ursula. You just keep that up now :-)). I was up all day every day for awhile and played Awakenings through a lot more than I intedend to, to get my mind of the pain and disorientation I was experiencing. I grew so hooked on Nathaniel that I wanted to desperately find out what his part was in DA2. I had bought the game close to when it was released but had not intended to play it just yet.

The web wasn't telling me anything, so I broke open the plastic cover on the hint book and was desperately looking for more info. on Nathaniel. That's when I read about the new romantic options. Having grown tired of the blatant feyness of Zevran (Alistair wasn't an option for me because I didn't want to kill Loghain), I wanted a real man...please don't misunderstand, everyone, Zevran grew on me, but the feyness of some of these elves in the DA universe is a little over the top for me.

After reading the hint book, I thought Sebastian would be my goal. How wrong was I? The pictures of Fenris in the book didn't look fey. But I was worried. And Anders was, too, on the questionable side sexually in Awakenings, so I was prepared to be disappointed by him too. I ended up disappointed in him however, from the exact reasons as you! But what happened was, I had Sebastian with me, but after that wine-drinking scene, and my "platonic" conversation with Fenris in the first act I was already madly in love with the inherently seductive elf. So I went back to the first Act. Did all the flirting, etc. and Fenris turned out not at all to be what I was worried about. In fact, I just so new he would be great from the moment he walked around that corner. I won't be able to romance any other character if he is around. He's my first choice; he's devastating.

To touch on what Harle said awhile back...I myself don't like the concept art for Fenris. I prefer the lean, tawniness of how he is in the game. I love everything about him.

Ah and I am in agreement with you both!
The concept art is not as great as the actual character that came to be, but I found the same to be true of Alistair (whether you romanced him or not). 
Fenris seems to me to be the one companion that would walk away at any time  - he doesn't seem as needy as some of the others.  I think that he's trying to understand himself and his past and that Hawke is helping him in some way is the reason he stays. 

As for the previous posts about Fenris and the Warden - I concur that I don't see that really working out.  In his mind he has "bigger" problems like slavers and Danarius, and is probably not that concerned about the "end of the world" scenario in Fereldan.  I think he'd probably thank the Warden for the help and move on.

[Arquen]

I pretty much agree with everything CGG said -- except maybe -- "Zevran could offer Fenris is an informed perspective about a lot of things Fenris doesn't know about but assumes he knows about: the Dalish, the daily lives of City elves, the racial imbalances, politics, mages, the blight, Ferelden. Most of the people who try to talk with Fenris about these things are extremely ra-ra about them, and Fenris doesn't react well to that. He reacts better to people who are casual and laid back, like Isabela, Donnic, and Varric. Still, none of them have that elf perspective, and none of them are as universally experienced with the world as Zevran."

Now the only real reason I went at his was because I don't think Fenris really cares about those perspectives. As far as city elves -- the alienage is something he despises and "lived it." Also, while I think Zevran has a great perspective and world view to share I don't think it would be a discussion topic that would just come up. I serioulsy don't think Fenris would accept that Zevran has more knowledge of mage oppression than himself. Zevran also isn't the mentoring or lecturing or sharing type. He deflects with humor and innuendo. He is more apt to say "believe whatever you want, my friend... " than to try to argue views.

Tevinter is also the difference here, and slavery. I just don't think your going to sit there and be able to tell Fenris that "yeah, I understand what your going through... been there." It is just NOT something you do. That is the most patronizing and horrible thing you can say to anyone who has lived through tradgedy and abuse. Nobody does know or understand what he's going through because they are not him. I think he can say to Zevran "You know nothing of slavery!" just as easily as anyone else. Zevran would most likely just deflect and go "suit yourself..."

Now, getting along, sure I can see them getting along quite well for the reasons you named -- Zev is like Isabela and Donnic and very casual and laidback. Then again, he is almost "too" casual to the point where he deflects a lot of "serious" conversations. Fenris might think him a bit of a fool at first. "Are we sure he was part of a guild of assassins?" I just don't see this sharing thing happening between them. There would have to be some kind of mediator like Hawke or the Warden to get them in the same space. They are guarded except with the people they are closest to.

Zevran also shares things with the Warden because of a blood debt and loyalty and affection after a while, and a few gifts, but he isn't very open with anyone else. Companions included. Zev will mention his mother was Dalish, but he also states to the Warden his disappointment in the Dalish when he did meet them. He will talk almost fondly of the brothel he was raised in and how they taught him and raised him and loved him. He states he visited the chantry as a child. There are a lot of dark things in Zev's past, but also the fundamental difference between them is freedom and choices and perspective. I just don't see Zev as being someone who chould change Fenris' perspective on things. I don't really think ANYONE can do that except Hawke and over a LooOOong time. Also, I believe there are perspectives and feelings that will never change in Fenris. Some things cannot be healed.

My in depth knowledge of Zevran is not as extensive as my knowledge of Fenris, and I apologize if there are examples of him that I am missing. Rinna is like the Fog Warriors though... it is something that Zev keeps to himself and is a great personal tragedy he is only going to share with someone he truly trusts and/or loves. I don't expect that story to ever come up between Zev and Fenris.

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...
Now the only real reason I went at his was because I don't think Fenris really cares about those perspectives. As far as city elves -- the alienage is something he despises and "lived it." Also, while I think Zevran has a great perspective and world view to share I don't think it would be a discussion topic that would just come up. I serioulsy don't think Fenris would accept that Zevran has more knowledge of mage oppression than himself. Zevran also isn't the mentoring or lecturing or sharing type. He deflects with humor and innuendo. He is more apt to say "believe whatever you want, my friend... " than to try to argue views.

True, but can't simply hearing about a different perspective plant a seed in someone's thoughts, and then, when they have more time to think it over, they can go "hmm...what if I look at the situation differently?" Thinking things over is something Fenris does do. Zev would be the last person to lecture anyone (well...unless you're trying to sell a bunch of elves into slavery), but a well-placed, seemingly throwaway comment can go a long way.

And while Zev doesn't have knowledge of mage oppression specifically, he has plenty of knowledge of oppression in general. Being a Crow isn't so very far removed from being a slave: he calls it a gilded cage. Especially if you bring him to the Fade and see what his nightmare is like.

Tevinter is also the difference here, and slavery. I just don't think your going to sit there and be able to tell Fenris that "yeah, I understand what your going through... been there." It is just NOT something you do. That is the most patronizing and horrible thing you can say to anyone who has lived through tradgedy and abuse. Nobody does know or understand what he's going through because they are not him. I think he can say to Zevran "You know nothing of slavery!" just as easily as anyone else. Zevran would most likely just deflect and go "suit yourself..."

See, this is where I'm puzzled...Hawke can't say that to Fenris either, even less than Zev. Not only because it's not the right approach, but because Hawke can't even fathom what it might have been like. Furthermore, since Zev does know what it's like, he probably also knows that being patronising with someone who's been through that kind of hell is the least productive way to go about things. Not that he'd ever naturally be patronising with anyone, but he would understand when a careful touch is needed, and Fenris is a case that requires a careful touch.

Now, getting along, sure I can see them getting along quite well for the reasons you named -- Zev is like Isabela and Donnic and very casual and laidback. Then again, he is almost "too" casual to the point where he deflects a lot of "serious" conversations. Fenris might think him a bit of a fool at first. "Are we sure he was part of a guild of assassins?" I just don't see this sharing thing happening between them. There would have to be some kind of mediator like Hawke or the Warden to get them in the same space. They are guarded except with the people they are closest to.

Again, this is assuming that they'd sit down to specifically share. I perceive it more along the "throwaway comment" line, as mentioned previously.

Zevran also shares things with the Warden because of a blood debt and loyalty and affection after a while, and a few gifts, but he isn't very open with anyone else. Companions included.

Because none of them ask. None of the other DAO companions really like Zev all that much. Also, none of them have a comparable past. There's Shale, but her situation is just worse than anybody else's.

Zev will mention his mother was Dalish, but he also states to the Warden his disappointment in the Dalish when he did meet them. He will talk almost fondly of the brothel he was raised in and how they taught him and raised him and loved him. He states he visited the chantry as a child. There are a lot of dark things in Zev's past, but also the fundamental difference between them is freedom and choices and perspective. I just don't see Zev as being someone who chould change Fenris' perspective on things. I don't really think ANYONE can do that except Hawke and over a LooOOong time. Also, I believe there are perspectives and feelings that will never change in Fenris. Some things cannot be healed.

Don't forget that Zev only has freedom once he runs into the Warden, and even then, it takes the final encounter with the Crows after the Landsmeet for him to actually acknowledge that freedom fully. He was sold to the Crows as a child. And while his time before that, in the brothel, was probably happy, there wasn't much choice or freedom in his subsequent life. It's just his attitude about it that makes such a striking difference. He was tortured as well, as part of the Crow initiation. He was taught to kill people for a living, and that love is a weakness. Sure, it's probably not quite as traumatic as having lyrium burned into your skin and becoming amnesiac, but he does know both pain and servitude. And he knows they're not easy to come to terms with.

By contrast...what does Hawke know of any of this? I'm not saying that Fenris absolutely needs someone to know what he's been through. In fact, he probably does need a dose of normality in someone to become romantically attached to them and move on from his own darkness. I'm just not entirely sure I agree that Hawke is the ONLY person that can get through to him.

My in depth knowledge of Zevran is not as extensive as my knowledge of Fenris, and I apologize if there are examples of him that I am missing. Rinna is like the Fog Warriors though... it is something that Zev keeps to himself and is a great personal tragedy he is only going to share with someone he truly trusts and/or loves. I don't expect that story to ever come up between Zev and Fenris.

Agreed, I just mentioned Rinna as the one topic Zev isn't open about.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 02:20 .

[ReiSilver]

I pop in and we're talking about Zevran and Fenris? Happy Day!
I was seriously considering how Fenris could benefit from being around Zevran after watching some dialogue I had never seen. I'd never seen the dialogue you get with him if you decide to annul the circle after talking with Cullen. Zevran will speak up and object on the grounds that it is senseless slaughter. Now whether or not his argument would be convincing for Fenris it seems to me Zevran would be capable of holding an argument better then a lot of the DA2 companions since we have Isabela and Varric who prefer to keep out of it, Merrill and Anders who are both mages themselves and then Aveline who is on the same side as Fenris for most intents and purposes. Zevran is not overly confrontational but he states his position and sticks to it (without an I-win persuade score anyway). He'll only argue back if it appears the other person it willing to listen ("Oh, now I'm shushed? Fine.")
Other then that I can see Zevrans general philosophy of not dwelling on painful things and focusing on what one can enjoy at the moment being good for Fenris who wants to move on but has trouble doing so. On the surface he's similar to Isabela, he brings levity to dark situations, so I could see Fenris appreciating his humour in the same way he appreciates hers.

[mcilhany]

Oh, definately. And Fenris doesn't seem to mind Zevran when they meet each other at Ignacio's camp. I have heard he doesn't particularly care for Zevran hitting on Hawke (Zevran won't hit on my Hawke, but does run off with Isabella every time). But otherwise he seems fine with Zevran. I, too, think they'd get along fine, in context. I agree with everything CGG said and Nilfalagiel and Arquen... Definately agree with Cosmochyk. Thank you, by the way Cosmo :-)

I'm uncomfortable with Zevran's obvious bisexuality, but would like to hope that has changed if he falls in love with a female Warden. But that doesn't mean CGG is wrong. Whether Zevran would be thinking about Fenris in that way at all may depend more on what sex you choose for the Warden, and whether or not the Warden is in a relationship with Zevran or not to begin with.

[Nilfalasiel]

mcilhany wrote...

I'm uncomfortable with Zevran's obvious bisexuality, but would like to hope that has changed if he falls in love with a female Warden. But that doesn't mean CGG is wrong. Whether Zevran would be thinking about Fenris in that way at all may depend more on what sex you choose for the Warden, and whether or not the Warden is in a relationship with Zevran or not to begin with.

Hang on...but all the LIs in DA2 are bi...

Anyways, Zevran with a romanced Warden, whatever the gender, is faithful. Yes, his cameo in DA2 is currently bugged, but the game does contain dialogue for a romanced Zevran, where he politely declines both Isabela and Hawke if they flirt with him, saying that he has a Warden to go back to. He will also decline their advances if the Warden is dead (again, this is consistent with the DAO epilogue, which states that, if the Warden died, Zevran never loved again). The real question here is whether BW will ever fix this bug (or give us a toolset to do it ourselves), but then the same can be asked about Fenris' Legacy dialogues. They're there, but they're bugged.

That being said, being bi...doesn't switch off when you're in a relationship. You still find both genders attractive. That doesn't mean you're going to cheat on your partner, though. Just like, in a straight or gay relationship, you're still able to find other people attractive without necessarily wanting to cheat on your partner. So I have no doubt that a romanced Zevran will still find Fenris attractive (because, well, Fenris IS hawt), he simply won't act on it. And if an unromanced Zevran hits on a romanced Fenris, Fenris won't respond. However, if both Zevran and Fenris are un-romanced...all bets are off.

Still, Zevran will tell a female Warden that he has a slight preference for women. So, y'know, if he was un-romanced and forced to choose between hitting on Isabela or hitting on Fenris, and found both equally attractive, he would probably pick Isabela.

[mcilhany]

That's great Nilfal :-). But that doesn't mean I have to like it. In general, I think there is too much "bi" in these games. That's my opinion. That's my preferance. It is highly likely I will finish my build with Derel by just not having her in a relationship at all. It's too bad, but...that's probably what's going to happen. It's not that I dislike Zevran, he is as free to do what he wants as am I.

You're pretty by the book aren't you? That's fine, and you are in fact correct about Justice and his sadly decomposing body. I like to make up my own stories tho, in my head. I like how Justice looks. I wish he could stay in that body. You are also correct that in theory why would Justice die? So again, another thing they don't really make clear. But I was left with no choice but to go along with it. Makes for an exciting upgrade with Anders, but, I'm not happy with where it led. I'm into happier endings. I'm not into the whole, tragedy makes for a better story kind of thing. Just serves to depress me.

[Tealsie]

mcilhany wrote...

But that doesn't mean I have to like it. In general, I think there is too much "bi" in these games.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean and why?

Straying a bit away from Zev(sorry, dear  ), what sort of relationship/feelings do you think Fenris would have with all/any of the Origins companions? Not just Zevran. (question not directed at anyone in particular, but everyone).
...this may have been gone over before. If it has, sorry.  

[Arcane_Solona]

The one thing that I absolutely adore about Fenris (apart from everything I have already mentioned in my post above) is that he actually has a great sense of humor, unlike the idiotic Anders, who rarely takes a joke and actually gets offended most of the time. At first, when I was trying to win Fenris' approval, I would always choose the Diplomatic answers, because I feared he wouldn't take my jokes so well. But once I was brave enough to actually choose the funny options, he responded so well to them, he made me fall even DEEPER in love with him (if that's even possible). So, yeah, I completely agree with you all; Fenris and Zevran would make really good friends. Notice how I only say FRIENDS, because if Zev so much as eyes my Fenris in interest, I will swipe at him with my Brothers' End two-handed  sword (or my Oathbreaker maul). As it is, Isabella's constant flirting with my Fenris is reeaaallllyyyy beginning to get on my nerves, so Zevran would better back off if he knew what's good for him.

Oh, and one more thing: I ADORE how Fenris, as HOT, SEXY, HANDSOME, IRRESISTIBLE (I could go on and on) as he is, he appears to have no idea! He is oblivious to the power he holds over Hawke (and the legions of fangirls). I'm not sure I would like him as much if he was full of himself.

Modifié par Arcane_Solona, 11 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Cosmochyck]

Arcane_Solona wrote...

Oh, and one more thing: I ADORE how Fenris, as HOT, SEXY, HANDSOME, IRRESISTIBLE (I could go on and on) as he is, he appears to have no idea! He is oblivious to the power he holds over Hawke (and the legions of fangirls). I'm not sure I would like him as much if he was full of himself.

Ditto!  It's pathetic really.  And again, such a great voice...

[mcilhany]

Thank you, Arcane_Solona, that is a good way of putting it.

Tealsie, too many characters are bi. However, I give credit that Fenris does not act bisexual at all. Arcane_Solona is right, that there's too much flirting from Isabella. I didn't like it eather. And Zevran will flirt with anything that moves. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone like that in real life, so why would my character?

I'm not an orgie kind of person. I wish at any rate Zevran would even mention the Warden. I hear the scene with him is supposed to be like, they "play down" his inuendos, but I can verify that this isn't even true. Zevran has not been faithful to my Warden. Even if they fix that at some point, I don't want to stay with him now. I kind of want him out of my universe. I had told SiaLater that I was going to do Origins over again, to tactfully let him go after I free him from Taliesin. It's just looking more and more as though it's gotta be that way. Since he begs you to take him with you when you first run into him, I can't let him go there. I tried, but later felt really bad about it.

I want a real man. If Zev is what you want, go for it. He's too inconstant for me, and I'll tell you all about it if you want. Just say the word. But for now, I've summed it up best I can.

I was soooo pleasantly surprised with Fenris because I was afraid of him being another Zevran. But, he's not like that at all. The fact that he lost his memory, that leaves a lot of open territory for players to "customize" him. In my scenario, Fenris is strictly hetero. Why wouldn't I want that?

I will also say that if someones male Hawke is as sweet and kind as my Mariana, that they are every bit as entitled to Fenris's love as me. I can't say I want it rubbed in my face, as I am not a homosexual. Also, the people I believe to be men on this forum are very very nice and it is not my intention to discriminate against them. I don't care much for the ****** pictures tho.

[Tealsie]

mcilhany wrote...
I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone like that in real life, so why would my character?

I'm guessing you don't roleplay.  

I will also say that if someones male Hawke is as sweet and kind as my Mariana, that they are every bit as entitled to Fenris's love as me.

What about rivalmance? And not everyone's characters are sweet and kind. That shouldn't mean they are any less deserving of Fenris' affections.

 I can't say I want it rubbed in my face, as I am not a homosexual.

You don't have to be homosexual. I'm not. I still don't mind either way. If two men/two women(or, you know... more than two. whatever) want to be 'physically together', then that's fine. And if it's an emotional attachment, then I can only ever see two happy people, together. Not anything disturbing/gross/upsetting or whatever else someone might call it. 
but anyway...

[mcilhany]

Tealsie,

None of us are roleplaying. And I never said anything about disturbing/gross/upsetting.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've actually developed a theory that I quite enjoy, that bisexuality is the dominant orientation among elves. Basically, in the same way 70%+ of humans are straight, 70%+ of elves are bisexual. It would be interesting to see a society that had a different default distribution of sexualities than earth human society, and the elves are the perfect testing ground... especially because of all the old "It's not gay if he's fae!" memes.

[Nilfalasiel]

mcilhany wrote...

None of us are roleplaying.

I can assure you that plenty of people play Hawkes and Wardens (and Shepards) that have nothing to do with their real personalities, if only for curiosity's sake.

Hence roleplaying. It is an RPG, after all.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Tealsie]

mcilhany wrote...

Tealsie,

None of us are roleplaying.

That is, quite simply, untrue.

And I never said anything about disturbing/gross/upsetting.

I know. I never said you did.