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[mcilhany]

But I thot I diiiiid...

Oh maybe I didn't because I thought...wait no I did I think!

I was going to say I don't take Fenris on Anders' quests because he doesn't like Anders, but..

I could have sworn I had him with me when this happened first. Hmmm. I'll try to find it and see. Then maybe it will have an outcome I can live with. But yeah, that's the scene I'm talking about, Arquen. I'm going to go try to find it. Gosh, I don't get Andersssssss. He fights real hard for you right up until he betrays you. I can't help but think Sebastian might have been right about him. But, in theory I guess I shouldn't feel bad about it.

[mcilhany]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Here's something I've been meaning to ask, I'm glad Heiden brought this up. Does Anders require the Tevinter Amulet gift to complete the romance with him?

[Cosmochyck]

Arquen wrote...

You take Fenris along and let him do the talking for you, LOL. Problem solved...

Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open minded.

Fenris: A mage and a hypocrit, what company you keep...

I just chuckle... "yeah, I know what you mean Fenris..." Plus my Hawke is thinking "Oh, he's a wild beast all right... in bed..." *trollface* and "Hello, pot... meet kettle... I swore you guys had met before?"

True! 
And the reason I never feel like Anders is "fighting" for me is I rarely play a mage...usually a Rogue or Warrior.  I hate having to take a Rogue along so it's usually me so then I get more varied party banter

[mcilhany]

@Cosmo

ahh! ok. There's a good point too. Excellent.

[Arquen]

No.. he doesn't require gifts for the romance, but I think it offers a flirt option if you give it to him. Plus friend/rival points.

Never done the Andersmance myself, but the thing about Anders is -- He always loves you. No matter who you are or what you do or how you act. He is just like.. drawn to you. Whether you love him back or not his feelings are always there. He can live with being your BFF, but he does always love you. Anders is just the right slice of crazy tragic. Though as a romance I still go "yikes! to broken!" and jump back.One day I'll make a crazy frothy revolutionary Hawke who will be head over heals for the apostate.. been saying that for months now.

Fenris is a hard fought love. He falls into it. He doesn't have feelings for anyone really in the beginning. Very distrustful and such, but after being around the force that is Hawke, he finds himself with actual feelings for both Kirkwall and Hawke. "It feels. That itself has been a surprise." Whether as a brother in arms or a romance Hawke becomes this external stationary force that he wants to build on. He wants to trust Hawke, but he is always guarded and careful. As a romance it is fantastic to watch him grow into "love," and as a friend it is fantastic to watch him grow as a character and a loyal companion.

[Cosmochyck]

I have to say too that playing a warrior with a two-handed weapon is great - Fenris and I can get in sync on the fighting. I find it very cool, especially if you're romancing him - feels like you're fighting "together".

[mcilhany]

That was beautiful Arquen. You really have put lots of thought into this! Thank you, you really have cleared lots of things up for me.

Oh, I was a fool before...afraid to read anything by you because I feared you hated me...and all this time, you were making conciliatory gestures, and I was acting like a hard-headed idiot... or...as Fenris would say.."I felt like such a fool, I thought it better that you hated me," Maybe I'm Fenris now :-). But now, I have told you how I felt and all is well again...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arquen wrote...

You take Fenris along and let him do the talking for you, LOL. Problem solved...

Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open minded.

Fenris: A mage and a hypocrit, what company you keep..."

My response to this tends to be either "This is why I drink, Anders."  or "I know, right? But Varric turned me down."  Is Isabella the only one Anders doesn't complain about? 

[Cosmochyck]

Arquen wrote...

No.. he doesn't require gifts for the romance, but I think it offers a flirt option if you give it to him. Plus friend/rival points.

Never done the Andersmance myself, but the thing about Anders is -- He always loves you. No matter who you are or what you do or how you act. He is just like.. drawn to you. Whether you love him back or not his feelings are always there. He can live with being your BFF, but he does always love you. Anders is just the right slice of crazy tragic. Though as a romance I still go "yikes! to broken!" and jump back.One day I'll make a crazy frothy revolutionary Hawke who will be head over heals for the apostate.. been saying that for months now.

Fenris is a hard fought love. He falls into it. He doesn't have feelings for anyone really in the beginning. Very distrustful and such, but after being around the force that is Hawke, he finds himself with actual feelings for both Kirkwall and Hawke. "It feels. That itself has been a surprise." Whether as a brother in arms or a romance Hawke becomes this external stationary force that he wants to build on. He wants to trust Hawke, but he is always guarded and careful. As a romance it is fantastic to watch him grow into "love," and as a friend it is fantastic to watch him grow as a character and a loyal companion.

Definitely well said.

[mcilhany]

@Cosmo, I know :-) i have a female warrior created exclusively for Anders. I just...I think I'm gonna have to switch her to Fenris... two handed weapons are awesome. A few pages back I suggested 2 quest-reward two-handed swords, Binky's Comfort and The Brother's End.  Either one will easily get you/him all through the Second Act. Gosh two-handed is fun. You just tear through the enemy. With Fenris at your side you barely even need a healer the enemy goes down so quickly.

Modifié par mcilhany, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[mcilhany]

CGG yes I know! makes me so mad because she outright tells him she doesn't like him. Seems so unfair...

[Cosmochyck]

mcilhany wrote...

@Cosmo, I know :-) i have a female warrior created exclusively for Anders. I just...I think I'm gonna have to switch her to Fenris... two handed weapons are awesome. A few pages back I suggested 2 quest-reward two-handed swords, Binky's Comfort and The Brother's End.  Either one will easily get you/him all through the Second Act. Gosh two-handed is fun. You just tear through the enemy. With Fenris at your side you barely even need a healer the enemy goes down so quickly.

The Limbtaker is also awesome.

[mcilhany]

Yes, yes I've been meaning to get it. I haven't made it yet to the 3rd act with my Warrior. And if I'm going to switch to Fenris I'll have to redo the whole thing, at least from where Hawke meets Anders and Fenris and make my choice from the beginning. I'm kind of obsessive compulsive like that, but Limbtaker does look very sweet when I've seen it in HighTown. Since it's a little on the pricey side I just have been holding out and getting Fenris his Blade of Mercy. But with two 2 handed warriors, I'll need that other one. I'm eager to try it. There are lot's of good one handed swords too! Too many almost and I can never choose. For Aveline. I'm going to definitely try one handed and shield too at some point. Ahh, so much to doooo.

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arquen wrote...

You take Fenris along and let him do the talking for you, LOL. Problem solved...

Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open minded.

Fenris: A mage and a hypocrit, what company you keep..."

My response to this tends to be either "This is why I drink, Anders."  or "I know, right? But Varric turned me down."  Is Isabella the only one Anders doesn't complain about? 

Isabela is indeed the only one Anders doesn't complain about. I think Anders is just to impressed with a Hawke that manages to "tame" Isabela. Plus he actually likes Bela, where upon he hates Fenris and distrusts Merrill ;p

[Arquen]

My response to this tends to be either "This is why I drink, Anders." or "I know, right? But Varric turned me down." Is Isabela the only one Anders doesn't complain about?

*Ahem*... "Isabela is a side dish" -- Oh, Anders... you did NOT just say that? LMAO

In Act 3 there is a Fenris dialogue when he asks his "what should I do now, Hawke" and his response to "I don't care, do what you want" aggro Hawke is -- "I'd hoped it might. I've always thought of you as a friend." Also, in a rivalry (nonromance) Hawke says "You obviously aren't happy here..." and he talks about traveling "There are other lands I haven't seen, places with no bad memories. Perhaps I shall go west." It goes back to my whole Hawke helped him and he is drawn to Hawke. It also shows a lot of character growth. Even though he plans to leave (oh my heart) .. he will remark on your friendship and will thank Hawke for everything.

I really need to go now... working tonight and it is late for me.

I have a modded Vigilance and a unique weapon mod -- Fenris' scythe. Only weapons Fenris will ever need

Modifié par Arquen, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[mcilhany]

Heiden...good insight :-) Arquen...never had that dialog. I'm seeing this differently now, thanks :-)

[Heidenreich]

You will link me this mod, Arquen, riiiight now. *jedi mind trick*

As for party make up -- Always, reguiardless of my characters's class - Fenris, Anders, Varric.

Fenris for.. well.. fenris goodness
Anders for heals and Andersness
and Varric to keep the two from killing each other

Modifié par Heidenreich, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Cosmochyck]

Heidenreich wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arquen wrote...

You take Fenris along and let him do the talking for you, LOL. Problem solved...

Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open minded.

Fenris: A mage and a hypocrit, what company you keep..."

My response to this tends to be either "This is why I drink, Anders."  or "I know, right? But Varric turned me down."  Is Isabella the only one Anders doesn't complain about? 

Isabela is indeed the only one Anders doesn't complain about. I think Anders is just to impressed with a Hawke that manages to "tame" Isabela. Plus he actually likes Bela, where upon he hates Fenris and distrusts Merrill ;p

Probably from their time at the "Pearl" together

And damn mods!  I'm playing on the 360...makes me want to buy it for PC too!

[mcilhany]

@Cosmo...that's right! I'd forgotten about that! That is why...the Pearl. GJ :-)

@Heiden me too. I especially always bring Varric...can't be without him. He's probably my next favorite companion to Fenris. And I'll often bring Aveline or Isabella instead of Anders if I'm the healer, the primary reason being I don't want to include him a lot if I decide I may have to kill him later.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

mcilhany wrote...

CGG yes I know! makes me so mad because she outright tells him she doesn't like him. Seems so unfair...

I think that Isabella reminds Anders of himself from Awakening... he says as much, at one point.

Fenris and Merrill both represent things he's especially bothered by and afraid of.

Anders spends the first two acts trying not to go completely crazy extreme. I know people might laugh at that idea, but it's true... after Alrik he says that the fact that Meredith and the Divine both rejected the Tranquil solution gives him hope that they'll be reasonable. Fenris was never at a point where he was willing to give any mage (other than Hawke or Bethany) the benefit of the doubt. By the end of Act 3 Fenris may have started to improve slightly and Anders is entirely off the rails so that statement seems patently ridiculous and hypocritical... but they are different in that Anders at least made the effort to start out by trying to have some degree of hope that peaceful change was possible. The fact that at that point he's become as single-minded about the whole thing as Fenris is part of the tragedy.

Merrill is someone who has crossed that one line he has set for himself: blood magic. In his mind, blood magic is the clear, straight line between good mages and bad mages. But if Merrill can cross that line and not be a bad person, maybe there IS no line between good mages and bad mages. Maybe nothing is as clean-cut as he wants it to be. And if blood magic isn't bad, maybe what he did... was. Or maybe there is truly no way to tell.

Isabella, as I said before, is sort of similar to Anders in Awakening, but, and this is important, without the dark shadow of the Templars hanging over her head. She has problems, but she actually can run from them, quite successfully. Anders always had that angst and sense of the fragility of his situation, in a way that just made Awakening me want to save him and keep him safe forever. We've never known Anders as he would have been without having the spectre of magehood hanging over him, but honestly, having him be Isabella-like is as plausible as anything else. So I think Isabella represents an idea he mentions early on... "if only we could have met years ago." 

[Heidenreich]

Cosmochyck wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arquen wrote...*snip*

*snip*

Isabela is indeed the only one Anders doesn't complain about. I think Anders is just to impressed with a Hawke that manages to "tame" Isabela. Plus he actually likes Bela, where upon he hates Fenris and distrusts Merrill ;p

Probably from their time at the "Pearl" together

And damn mods!  I'm playing on the 360...makes me want to buy it for PC too!

1. Do it.
2. Well, previous knowledge aside, Bela's genuinly a good person (even if she doesn't think so.) and she's very much how Anders used to be, pre-justice. I can easily see the two of them being pretty buddy-buddy. At least until she starts sleeping with Fenris (should you not romance him or her ) and even then

He even makes a comment about how she came back, expresses that he's impressed she did, and then says how he "totally knew it." Because he and she are a lot alike in a lot of ways. Except that he's got a Justice living in his head now. So he can't be that way anymore.

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mcilhany wrote...

CGG yes I know! makes me so mad because she outright tells him she doesn't like him. Seems so unfair...

I think that Isabella reminds Anders of himself from Awakening... he says as much, at one point.

Fenris and Merrill both represent things he's especially bothered by and afraid of.

Anders spends the first two acts trying not to go completely crazy extreme. I know people might laugh at that idea, but it's true... after Alrik he says that the fact that Meredith and the Divine both rejected the Tranquil solution gives him hope that they'll be reasonable. Fenris was never at a point where he was willing to give any mage (other than Hawke or Bethany) the benefit of the doubt. By the end of Act 3 Fenris may have started to improve slightly and Anders is entirely off the rails so that statement seems patently ridiculous and hypocritical... but they are different in that Anders at least made the effort to start out by trying to have some degree of hope that peaceful change was possible. The fact that at that point he's become as single-minded about the whole thing as Fenris is part of the tragedy.

Merrill is someone who has crossed that one line he has set for himself: blood magic. In his mind, blood magic is the clear, straight line between good mages and bad mages. But if Merrill can cross that line and not be a bad person, maybe there IS no line between good mages and bad mages. Maybe nothing is as clean-cut as he wants it to be. And if blood magic isn't bad, maybe what he did... was. Or maybe there is truly no way to tell.

Isabella, as I said before, is sort of similar to Anders in Awakening, but, and this is important, without the dark shadow of the Templars hanging over her head. She has problems, but she actually can run from them, quite successfully. Anders always had that angst and sense of the fragility of his situation, in a way that just made Awakening me want to save him and keep him safe forever. We've never known Anders as he would have been without having the spectre of magehood hanging over him, but honestly, having him be Isabella-like is as plausible as anything else. So I think Isabella represents an idea he mentions early on... "if only we could have met years ago." 

And the CGG does it again, reading my mind and expressing my thoughts more eloquently then I could have ever possibly hoped to.

< - a kiss for CGG.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Annarl]

Arcane_Solona wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Let me first say that I did not side with the Templars JUST because Anders pulled a dick move. He was, though, the straw that broke the camel's back. I let mages get away with so much and still believed they could be saved. But after all the betrayals my Hawke suffered, all the mages she tried to help, who backstabbed her in their paranoia, she just stopped believing they were all so innocent.

I don't think there should be a right or wrong in this case. Both sides have their points that make sense. You decide what is the lesser evil, even if you still don't like the choice. I did not want to kill the entire Circle, but the mages never gave me a reason to not believe the Annulment wasn't necessary. With that amount of blood mages in Kirkwall, the time to pity them was over. They were willingly going to the darker side of magic to try to escape, even if that meant proving all the fears of a templar.

But even if you do side with the templars, you are given an opportunity to see if you are totally in for the bloodletting or have some regrets. I let the mages that surrendered go. It sounds hypocritical, calling for Annulment but allowing mages to live, but my Hawke just couldn't help it. She always was a more neutral type, so it was a hard decision to make first off. But after seeing them surrender and not fight back, gave her hope that maybe something could be saved.

No matter what side you take, the fears of the other side are proven. No matter what you do, the evils of a side are proven. Its just a depressing choice to make when you realize neither of them are right.

You know, reading this thread really comforts me because it makes me realise that I'm not the only one taking all the decision making in DA to heart. My older brother plays it as well, and he just goes on making different decisions in different playthroughs (even if they are decisions that completely go against his morals, beliefs and sympathies). To him, its nothing more than a game, and by making a horrible decision (such as betraying Fenris and giving him back to Danarius), no one is really getting affected by the decision, so it doesn't bother him one bit.

To me, its all very personal, for some reason. Is it a female thing? I'd really like to hear the male opinion on this matter, because apparently, females are more in touch with the emotional and sympathetic aspect of things.

I sided with the mages in my first playthrough because I genuinely thought it was the righ thing to do. But in my second playthrough, I somehow became convinced (mostly by Fenris) that mages are a danger to others and themselves, no matter how good their intentions, and they need to be protected (I see the Circle as a necessary means of protection, not oppression).

Its true. Look at Anders in the Tranquil Solution quest. He nearly killed that innocent mage. For all we know, if Hawke hadn't been there, he probably would've, and that is all due to Justice (no matter how bevevolent he claims it to be). Anders is the very embodiment of the danger that even the BEST intentioned mages pose to Thedas.

EDIT: By the way, I would NEVER be able to betray Fenris, even if just to see how it all plays out. Just the thought of it aches my heart.

In my only playthrough where I sided with the Templars, my Hawke did it because he felt something was very wrong in Kirkwall.  And he couldn't see any other solutions.  He didn't see a way to save Kirkwall's mages.  That Hawke was a warrior who distrusted magic a little and saw a genuine need for the Circle and the Templars who enforce it.  For me it was a very different kind of playthrough, it was hard.  It's the one with more rivalries than friendships.  Fenris was his BFF and he rivalmanced Merrill, which I liked .  Most of my Hawkes want changes to the Circle.  Most would like for them to become like schools, not prisons.  But unfortunately, the game prevents Hawke from making any type of change to the Circle.  S/he just reacts to the events around him/her.  Which is okay I guess, the devs can only do so much.

Arcane Solona, you mentioned how do we make our decisions when playing a game, for me it depends on the game.  In an RPG like this one I tend to, try and think like the character would.  I try to view the world I am playing in as my character would.  Like my above explanation for how that Hawke thought, I usually have a back story running in my head about that character.  While my DH doesn't, he just plays on the fly and makes a decision about a story line and that's it (much like he does in RL).  But he usually only plays once where as I will play an RPG multiple times.  So that may be a factor in the difference.  

[mcilhany]

You guys are all amazing. I'm....well, I'm very impressed.

Heiden, I've been reading your things, and...you are quite a good writer. And CGG...she doesn't even have to try, she's a natural. My favorite is her "off the rail" material. Always candy for the brain:-).

And on that note, I must depart, if not for a bit...

[Tealsie]

Heidenreich wrote...

He even makes a comment about how she came back, expresses that he's impressed she did, and then says how he "totally knew it." Because he and she are a lot alike in a lot of ways. Except that he's got a Justice living in his head now. So he can't be that way anymore.

It seemed strange, to me, that most of the Anders/Isabela banters had the two of them sounding... close/comfortable, but then there's still that one banter where she tells him she doesn't like him.  and she sounded serious enough. It doesn't seem to quite fit.


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