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[Sialater]

It's as squicky as Zevran's past.... and while I think the worst, it's clearly been left vague for a reason.

ToP:

by: Maoileoin

Modifié par Sialater, 16 septembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Jessicles wrote...

This is all I get from Coffee, Black chapter 41. Is there supposed to be more?!

There's 5 comments of story in chapter 41.  I can't tell you if there's supposed to be more than what you see or not because I have an LJ and I'm logged in, so LJ's display issues don't affect me. XD  If you can't see that much, try logging in to LJ.

[Arquen]

Jessicles wrote...

This is all I get from Coffee, Black chapter 41. Is there supposed to be more?!

LOL, no that's the whole chapter.

I get that he wouldn't want to say it. I get that he wouldn't want to talk about it or bring it up as I said. That being said he is clearly talking about sex in those last few statements. "So you've never...." and his reply that "if there was someone else I have no memory of it." -- I just don't think he would say that. Sure he would not want to bring up Danarius, but why on earth would he say that at all?

[Arcane_Solona]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Generally speaking, when someone has suffered sexual abuse as the only form of sexual contact they know, if someone they're interested in asks if they're a virgin, they don't go "Well, no, I was abused for years!" Not only is there just a huge difference between consensual and nonconsensual sex, one that leaves someone who has only had nonconsensual sex entirely justified if they want to tell someone straight out that they're a virgin, but abuse is frankly not an easy thing to deal with, or to admit to someone. Especially if the person being asked has no idea whether the person they're talking to willl react with pity, sympathy, or disgust at them for being abused.

Fenris doesn't outright say he hasn't been with anyone, he says he can't remember anyone before the markings, and that he hasn't allowed anyone close, that he believed he didn't need or want anyone. Even if you believe he's definitely talking physically, and not emtionally, that's a very careful wording that could easily be him edging around his brash honesty because he doesn't want to tell Hawke he's never been touched sexually, but he also doesn't want to tell Hawke that he /has/, as a slave.

Makes sense. Whatever happened, Danarius is disgusting. The way that man walked and talked... URGH! 

[Arcane_Solona]

Arquen wrote...

Jessicles wrote...

This is all I get from Coffee, Black chapter 41. Is there supposed to be more?!

LOL, no that's the whole chapter.

I get that he wouldn't want to say it. I get that he wouldn't want to talk about it or bring it up as I said. That being said he is clearly talking about sex in those last few statements. "So you've never...." and his reply that "if there was someone else I have no memory of it." -- I just don't think he would say that. Sure he would not want to bring up Danarius, but why on earth would he say that at all?

If only the man himself (TGP) would answer this question! David? Where are yooooouu???

[Harle Cerulean]

Because there's no one else he's wanted to have sex with? There really is a huge difference between sexual abuse and actual sex. Abuse does not factor in to whether you've 'had sex' with someone, because abuse isn't sex. It's rape.


EDIT: I'd like to add that I have no problem with people thinking Fenris wasn't sexually abused by Danarius, but I do wish they'd come up with reasons for that belief that aren't in some way insulting to people who have suffered abuse - "he wouldn't want to have sex with Hawke if so" is insulting because it implies that anyone who, oh, recovers from the abuse and regains a normal outlook on sex wasn't really abused, and "he says he's never been with anyone" is insulting because it implies that sexual abuse is the same as sex, and not rape.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 16 septembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Generally speaking, when someone has suffered sexual abuse as the only form of sexual contact they know, if someone they're interested in asks if they're a virgin, they don't go "Well, no, I was abused for years!" Not only is there just a huge difference between consensual and nonconsensual sex, one that leaves someone who has only had nonconsensual sex entirely justified if they want to tell someone straight out that they're a virgin, but abuse is frankly not an easy thing to deal with, or to admit to someone. Especially if the person being asked has no idea whether the person they're talking to willl react with pity, sympathy, or disgust at them for being abused.

This. While a Hawke who is sincere about Fenris would probably be understanding, I'd imagine it would still be an incredibly difficult thing to admit, especially in that kind of situation.

Fenris doesn't outright say he hasn't been with anyone, he says he can't remember anyone before the markings, and that he hasn't allowed anyone close, that he believed he didn't need or want anyone. Even if you believe he's definitely talking physically, and not emtionally, that's a very careful wording that could easily be him edging around his brash honesty because he doesn't want to tell Hawke he's never been touched sexually, but he also doesn't want to tell Hawke that he /has/, as a slave.

Also, if it's before the markings, he really wouldn't remember it, would he?

You could probably also interpret it as him either being in denial of the fact, or as equivalent to him saying that he doesn't want to remember it. Or he simply doesn't consider it as sex, because it would have been more about violence and humiliation.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 16 septembre 2011 - 01:39 .

[Arquen]

That's the thing... "I have no memory of it." -- that is an outright lie if he has been sexual. Yes rape is not sex, yes sexual abuse is not sex, but they are clearly discussing sex here between Hawke and him, and if there was something in his past like that he wouldn't say he doesn't remember any kind of sex. It isn't about the "want" factor it is about the truth factor. It is not like him to say something like this because it is not like Fenris to lie about anything. Rather to be a mute than a liar is kind of his policy.

[Harle Cerulean]

"If there was anyone before, I have no memory of it" is about before his markings, not in general "ever". It's referring to his amnesia.

[Arcane_Solona]

I don't know... I kind of agree with Arquen. Knowing Fenris' direct and honest nature, I could really see him telling Hawke if he really did remember being sexually abused by Danarius, even if he didn't consider that as "being" intimate with someone (because it obviously isn't). Fenris despised Danarius, and he trusts Hawke, so I think he would've hinted at it (or even outright said it) if it really happened. Then again, maybe he felt it was best not to mention it. 

David wouldn't say the relationship was of an intimate nature without reason... and I really wonder what he meant  by that statement.

@Arquen: Fenris finally graces my profile picture! Thank you SO much for directing me to the instructions to change it! You made my day!!

[Arquen]

I disagree that he is specifically talking about the markings. Only because that is the same conversation where he is discussing the fog warriors. He is talking about when he was a slave vs after he escaped. I always thought that statement was a general statement about "So you've NEVER.." had sex? Then "and after even...?" which I assumed was "after your escape" not "after the markings."

[Harle Cerulean]

And then he goes on to specify that after his escape, he hasn't allowed anyone close, and that he didn't believe he needed or wanted anyone. If the statement applied to his span of memory, there would be no need for clarification.

[Arquen]

I fail to see how that is relevant. It only suggests that he didn't need or want anyone and chose not to get to close to anyone on purpose. It doesn't suggest anything about intimacy with Danarius.

[Harle Cerulean]

Then we have different intepretations of the scene. We also have different interpretations of "honesty" about sexual contact vs sexual abuse, so at a guess, we're just going to go in circles about this if we continue. Time to agree to disagree. XD

[Arquen]

This is fine. Though I do love a good debate. Also, I really like how so many interpretations come out of one scene and one sentence. It intrigues me to find what other people see that I did not or that I interpreted differently.

I do think there is a strong case to be made for either side actually. The greatest counter-argument to mine is that Fenris downright kicks you out and denies sexy times with you. Even after expressing his want, his desire, he is still reserved. He is still not wanting to get too close. It is indicative of someone who has been abused and is still trying to work out how they feel about sex even when they do want someone. Which can then suggest sexual abuse as well.

See, I have this thing where I over-analyze everything and put myself on both sides of the argument and then play Devil's advocate and argue against myself. I'm a crazy person. I know.

Modifié par Arquen, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Sialater]

Well, just to throw another wrench into the mix, there's many different meanings to the word "intimate."

[Arquen]

My exact thoughts as well. Intimate does not necessarily mean overt sexual abuse. It IS vague, that's the point.

Edit: What I am intimating here is that Fenris did not have to be intimate with Danarius sexually, but it is apparent that there WAS an intimate relationship between the two. Of this I have no doubt.

Also, MUAHAHAHA.

Modifié par Arquen, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[Reinara]

On the topic of the 'intimacy' thing, I've always been wibbling between the two ideas prior to the... umm. "*coughintimatecough*" revelation. Mostly because I dislike using sexual abuse  just to add more ~*angst*~ to a character's already horrible experience in his background but now that it's been... sort of confirmed, I'm mostly on the same opinion as Harle. Although I also agree that it can be read either way.

That aside, though. I'm excited about the new DLC! The potential to take your love interest to an Orlesian party sounds hilarious and I'm crossing my fingers we can hopefully get new costumes for them for the occasion, since, if I remember right the preview thing at pax mentioned something about Merrill getting a new golden outfit or something right?

ALSO I know this has been asked a few times in this thread, and I'm still not sure what it is, but has it ever been confirmed anywhere at all what that mysterious thing tucked into the favor is?

[Tealsie]

Arquen wrote...

My exact thoughts as well. Intimate does not necessarily mean overt sexual abuse. It IS vague, that's the point.

Edit: What I am intimating here is that Fenris did not have to be intimate with Danarius sexually, but it is apparent that there WAS an intimate relationship between the two. Of this I have no doubt.

Also, MUAHAHAHA.

What an intimate post!

Reinara wrote...


ALSO I know this has been asked a few times in this thread, and I'm still not sure what it is, but has it ever been confirmed anywhere at all what that mysterious thing tucked into the favor is?

It has not been confirmed. I had thought it might've been a lock of Hawke's hair, but then that doesn't match up with a blonde/ginger/bald Hawke.
I think someone had suggested that it's just a piece of his armor/clothing poking through the favor.

[Arquen]

Okay because I just totally spent the last 2 minutes going frame by frame through the trailer and OMG.. hyperventilating.

The people in Hawke's party are.. *drumroll* Isabela and Fenris! Isabela had the LI favor though *headdesk* ... but but... it was those 2 in the trailer. I am now excited about this DLC.

As for the favor "thingy" -- I have a bajillion close ups of it.. at times it looks like a feather, at times a piece of armor, a strip of cloth. At times it simply looks like a clipping issue with his gauntlets. I'm actually inclined to think it is a piece of leather or fabric or perhaps a Hawke feather. However, this has not been answered and goes on as one of life's little mysteries.

I am happy now.. and must go to bed *happydance* Fenris/ Isabela... ZOMG.

[Cosmochyck]

Reinara wrote...

On the topic of the 'intimacy' thing, I've always been wibbling between the two ideas prior to the... umm. "*coughintimatecough*" revelation. Mostly because I dislike using sexual abuse  just to add more ~*angst*~ to a character's already horrible experience in his background but now that it's been... sort of confirmed, I'm mostly on the same opinion as Harle. Although I also agree that it can be read either way.

That aside, though. I'm excited about the new DLC! The potential to take your love interest to an Orlesian party sounds hilarious and I'm crossing my fingers we can hopefully get new costumes for them for the occasion, since, if I remember right the preview thing at pax mentioned something about Merrill getting a new golden outfit or something right?

ALSO I know this has been asked a few times in this thread, and I'm still not sure what it is, but has it ever been confirmed anywhere at all what that mysterious thing tucked into the favor is?

It's poor collision detection in the game and as previosly mentioned is his armor? 

I
think that's the same issue with the "kissing his chin" scene - poor
collision detection.  If I replay the scene several times it corrects
itself. 

In DA:O one of my PTs when Alistair kisses my PC at the
camp, she's making the move and he is right through her warming is
hands by the fire!!  Talk about awkward!![smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]

[Reinara]

HAHAHA I've downloaded the trailer off the site and I've been doing the same too Arquen. I know there are people who're concerned that this dlc might be too much like the Kasumi DLC for Mass Effect but as soon as I saw Isabela and Fenris in Hawke's party I pretty much went "IF THOSE TWO ARE IN IT AND HAVE A SPECIAL ROLE PLZ TAKE MY MONEY NAO BIOWARE " I'm very shallow.

[Harle Cerulean]

Reinara wrote...

HAHAHA I've downloaded the trailer off the site and I've been doing the same too Arquen. I know there are people who're concerned that this dlc might be too much like the Kasumi DLC for Mass Effect but as soon as I saw Isabela and Fenris in Hawke's party I pretty much went "IF THOSE TWO ARE IN IT AND HAVE A SPECIAL ROLE PLZ TAKE MY MONEY NAO BIOWARE <3" I'm very shallow.

But it's a type of shallow I think all of us here can get behind. 

[Sialater]

Cosmochyck wrote...

Reinara wrote...

On the topic of the 'intimacy' thing, I've always been wibbling between the two ideas prior to the... umm. "*coughintimatecough*" revelation. Mostly because I dislike using sexual abuse  just to add more ~*angst*~ to a character's already horrible experience in his background but now that it's been... sort of confirmed, I'm mostly on the same opinion as Harle. Although I also agree that it can be read either way.

That aside, though. I'm excited about the new DLC! The potential to take your love interest to an Orlesian party sounds hilarious and I'm crossing my fingers we can hopefully get new costumes for them for the occasion, since, if I remember right the preview thing at pax mentioned something about Merrill getting a new golden outfit or something right?

ALSO I know this has been asked a few times in this thread, and I'm still not sure what it is, but has it ever been confirmed anywhere at all what that mysterious thing tucked into the favor is?

It's poor collision detection in the game and as previosly mentioned is his armor? 

I
think that's the same issue with the "kissing his chin" scene - poor
collision detection.  If I replay the scene several times it corrects
itself. 

In DA:O one of my PTs when Alistair kisses my PC at the
camp, she's making the move and he is right through her warming is
hands by the fire!!  Talk about awkward!![smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]

I just like how my 4' elf mage is suddenly tall enough to kiss the 6' & change warrior without him bending. 

[Nilfalasiel]

Sialater wrote...
I just like how my 4' elf mage is suddenly tall enough to kiss the 6' & change warrior without him bending. 

Wouldn't 4' be short, even for an elf? I have a hard time with feet and inches, too used to the metric system.

As a point of curiosity, does this also happen with a dwarf?

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:34 .