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[Sialater]

~looks around, paranoid~ Wonder which ones he's reading?

Ooops, ToP:

Modifié par Sialater, 23 septembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[Addai]

Heidenreich wrote...

Bah, personally Fenris is better off as a Rival. It's not distrust, just disagreement. He trusts Hawke, but is more vocal about what he wants and doesn't want. He's also more protective, because he thinks Hawke has a deathwish.

I always preferred the rivalry, too.  He seemed kind of sad and resigned to me in the friendship romance.  Not a dynamic that appeals to me, personally.

Gay Fenris never mentions being a virgin. Because he's not. Straight Fenris does, because he's never been with a woman. Which is just an indication that he never actually slept with Hadrianna (willingly or unwillingly). So that's great!

Wait, what?  When does he ever say he's a virgin?  He said he hadn't been with anyone since escaping, and doesn't remember before.  Is that not the same line he gives a male PC?

I do think the authorial context is helpful to understanding him.  He is troubled and runs out on Hawke, because he suddenly remembers an abusive relationship with Danarius.  That makes the most sense if Hawke is male and Fenris is having trouble distinguishing a consensual relationship with the f'ed up one from his past.

Also seems to me that Anders' romance works best with a male PC.  Evens the score a little from Origins, where I thought hetero female characters had it pretty good, between Alistair and then Zevran saying he prefers women.  In both games, it's the hetero male characters that seem to me to have gotten shafted- no pun intended.
 
I also think it illustrates that the idea of "blank template" bisexual characters doesn't really work in practice, not in a deep story game.  There's always some context- we just didn't get to hear it.

[Annarl]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Oh, gosh, did I miss "sharing pictures of our custom fHawkes" time? Well, here's mine anyways (with Fenris in the background, of course!)


Oddly, I play a lot of male Hawkes, perhaps because I just enjoy crossplaying as male characters in general, but I do have a few fHawkes, because it's a fun option to take, even if it's not the one I usually do, and I love that it IS an option.

I find it interesting (and annoying, frankly) how so many people say that some characters "seem straight" or "seem gay" to them, as if there's a specific way of acting for either sexuality, or for bisexuality.

First, there are a lot of cute Hawkes on this thread.  Mine generally all look the same  which is to say the default FemHawke.

As for saying Fenris seems one way or another, I think that's just each persons perception, which is influenced by personality, life experience, gender, age... etc...  That is the thing each of us brings to an RPG that is very different.  It's part of how we can all experience the same game in a very different manner. I never like to tell another player how they perceived something is wrong because for them it isn't.  It's just different.  I'm probably wording this very poorily so please forgive me.  In fact, I enjoy listening or reading in this case, how others saw the same situations as me and yet experienced them very different ways.

For me, Fenris never strikes me as one way or another.  He like Anders, and I guess Merrill are attracted to Hawke the individual and their relationship grows from there.  But again this is how I saw the relationships.

Modifié par omearaee, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Tealsie]

tankgirly wrote...

[Continued off topic]

Haer'Dalis

That potrait looks a bit like Colin Farrell, don't you think?

Like Valen Shadowbreath in HotU series, he's a tiefling. And I seriously suspecting he was one of TGP's earlier creation.

Right, TGP?

That would be interesting.  
Wonder if they'll ever remake it... let it be on consoles too. My laptop hates me trying to play games on it.

Arquen wrote...

Hey guys ... quickie note to let whoever cares... family emergency so I will have to put my fic editing and such on hold for a little bit. Hopefully I can get to things later in the weekend but I'm off on family business and don't know when I'll have some free time.

I hope everything's alright.  or, if it's not, then it turns out alright.

Whether male or female -- he is drawn to Hawke, and I see him as the kind of person (as said before) who chooses a partner based on who they are and not what gender they are.

He's Hawkesexual?
Makes sense...

Though... anyone calling him is "gay" automatically wrong.  Because he still has that thing with Isabela later if not romanced/left for someone else, even while playing a male Hawke.

[syllogi]

Arquen wrote...

Honestly, I don't see Fenris as gay or straight or bi or tri or anything actually. I see him as a Hawke-sexuality orientation. Whoever Hawke is -- that is who he chooses to be with. Whether male or female -- he is drawn to Hawke, and I see him as the kind of person (as said before) who chooses a partner based on who they are and not what gender they are. My personal preference is Fem!Hawke as I said because of the dynamic between the two, but I dislike how people try to put the characters into categories.

As I said I dislike that now people will jump on the "DG wrote him with male Hawke in mind so that means he is gay!" bandwagon as much as I dislike the "He doesn't act gay and is obviously straight so he belongs with female Hawke!" bandwagon.

2 cents.

So much this.  I actually groaned when I saw that quote from DG, because I knew that would incite "shipping wars" or whatever, which is really silly when you think that Male Hawke and Female Hawke are the same person.  

I personally LOVE the fact that both Merrill and Fenris don't telegraph (or ya know, shout from the rooftops) their preferred sexual orientation.  That's the way I see myself in real life when it comes to potential mates...I find the person attractive, and their gender is secondary.  I can certainly appreciate good looking people, but that's separate in my mind from romantic potential.  I'd like to think that Fenris sees my Hawke the same way, not caring about the outer package, at least not as much as the person underneath.

As for the friendmance/rivalmance thing, my first playthrough was with a sarcastic!mage who was platonically rivalling Fenris...and I totally fell for him, even though I wasn't romancing him.  I made a new "blue" character to friendmance him, but it wasn't the same at all.  I love the idea of "friction" in romances, at least in fiction, so Fenris's gruffness paired with a mild mannered Hawke didn't seem right to me.  I deleted that character and moved on to making a new aggressive!mage to spar with Fenris, and suddenly the magic was back, I really enjoyed that character, and rivalry romance.  I know it's not for everyone, but it really made me appreciate the friendship/rivalry system.  I have the choice on how to play the friendships and romances, and it's the one thing I really like better in DA2 than DA:O.

And this is Tristana, my Hawke for Fenris.  I thought a fiery redhead was appropriate for the personality I planned for her:

[Arquen]

He is troubled and runs out on Hawke, because he suddenly remembers an abusive relationship with Danarius. That makes the most sense if Hawke is male and Fenris is having trouble distinguishing a consensual relationship with the f'ed up one from his past.

He doesn't run out on Hawke because of this. In fact, DG made it pretty clear he doesn't see the relationship with Hawke as anything like his relationship with Danarius. He runs out because of the regain and loss of his past memories before the ritual. To gain it all back "in a rush" and then to "lose it again." That just slaps him back into the mentality of not being a complete person, and he has to figure out what his past means to him and what Hawke means to him first. He just balks because it is so jarring. I don't think he leaves because of Danarius or his memories with Danarius at all.

Also, he doesn't quite say "virgin," but the statement about "so you've never" and then his answer about not being with anyone else is sort of suggestive he doesn't remember having sex with anyone. Interpretations vary.. some see it as he did have sexual "relations" with Danarius and is choosing not to reveal them or omitting them on purpose, and some see it as he has literally never had sexual relations that he can remember.

[AbsoluteApril]

So... does anyone have a handy link to this fanfic 'coffee, black' that everyone keeps talking about?

Tashash - I still need to read the rest of the story you posted.

looks like I've got my weekend planned.. read, read some more, then finish act 3 friendmance with Anders (don't think I've ever wanted to finish a PT so fast just to get it over with) and start a new runthough.. what to play, what to play? So far both PT has been f!hawke mages, maybe a rogue? male? hmmm

[Addai]

TeenZombie wrote...
So much this.  I actually groaned when I saw that quote from DG, because I knew that would incite "shipping wars" or whatever, which is really silly when you think that Male Hawke and Female Hawke are the same person.  

I personally LOVE the fact that both Merrill and Fenris don't telegraph (or ya know, shout from the rooftops) their preferred sexual orientation.  That's the way I see myself in real life when it comes to potential mates...I find the person attractive, and their gender is secondary.  I can certainly appreciate good looking people, but that's separate in my mind from romantic potential.  I'd like to think that Fenris sees my Hawke the same way, not caring about the outer package, at least not as much as the person underneath.

With respect, that's you and not everyone.  I see gender as pretty integral.  I'm not just a woman because I have the requisite parts.  There is no male "me."  If I were male, I'd be a different person- importantly different, if not totally so.

I realize that's not how everyone views the human person.  If you think gender is incidental, this was the game for you, because that's how the LI's appear to have been conceived.  It makes them less relatable for me.  If they do it again that way for DA3, whether for marketing or just because that's how the writers prefer it, at least I'll know what to expect.

[Addai]

Arquen wrote...
Also, he doesn't quite say "virgin," but the statement about "so you've never" and then his answer about not being with anyone else is sort of suggestive he doesn't remember having sex with anyone. Interpretations vary.. some see it as he did have sexual "relations" with Danarius and is choosing not to reveal them or omitting them on purpose, and some see it as he has literally never had sexual relations that he can remember.

In a chat with a different fan, DG said that Danarius and Fenris had had a sexual relationship.  It was on tumblr so I'll never be able to find it.

[Heidenreich]

Addai67 wrote...

Arquen wrote...
Also, he doesn't quite say "virgin," but the statement about "so you've never" and then his answer about not being with anyone else is sort of suggestive he doesn't remember having sex with anyone. Interpretations vary.. some see it as he did have sexual "relations" with Danarius and is choosing not to reveal them or omitting them on purpose, and some see it as he has literally never had sexual relations that he can remember.

In a chat with a different fan, DG said that Danarius and Fenris had had a sexual relationship.  It was on tumblr so I'll never be able to find it.

No, he doesn't actually. I have it on my tumblr, which I totally reblogged from Aimo, *quotes*

- Did you get the sense that Danarius had a really sketchy (*cough*
intimate *cough*) relationship with Fenris? Yeah, you weren’t exactly
wrong…. :/

It doesn't say he had a sexual relationship. It says that Denarius was sexual with him. That doesn't mean it was willingly done. It also doesn't mean he refused, either. Because slaves don't refuse their masters.

The whole thing is very Gaider. Because he wont tell us outright. Because that's no fun if he just gives it away.


All in all its a yich topic. I'd rather discuss the fact that Gaider and Jennifer were like "loooooool edward/jacob!" about Anders and Fenris.. and then tell Gaider that L.J.Smith did it so much better with the Salvatore brothers And, managed to do it with out sparkling.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Addai]

I didn't mean to imply that it was consensual or wanted. I don't think anyone who's a slave of someone else can have a consensual sexual relationship with that person.

[syllogi]

Addai67 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
So much this.  I actually groaned when I saw that quote from DG, because I knew that would incite "shipping wars" or whatever, which is really silly when you think that Male Hawke and Female Hawke are the same person.  

I personally LOVE the fact that both Merrill and Fenris don't telegraph (or ya know, shout from the rooftops) their preferred sexual orientation.  That's the way I see myself in real life when it comes to potential mates...I find the person attractive, and their gender is secondary.  I can certainly appreciate good looking people, but that's separate in my mind from romantic potential.  I'd like to think that Fenris sees my Hawke the same way, not caring about the outer package, at least not as much as the person underneath.

With respect, that's you and not everyone.  I see gender as pretty integral.  I'm not just a woman because I have the requisite parts.  There is no male "me."  If I were male, I'd be a different person- importantly different, if not totally so.

I realize that's not how everyone views the human person.  If you think gender is incidental, this was the game for you, because that's how the LI's appear to have been conceived.  It makes them less relatable for me.  If they do it again that way for DA3, whether for marketing or just because that's how the writers prefer it, at least I'll know what to expect.

Well, when it comes to how characters are written, and the friendship/rivalry system, I think they got it right, but as someone who enjoyed the combat, origins, and skills from DA:O, it's not the perfect game for me...but that's for another thread.  I just will say I really liked how they handled the "they're all bi" situation, personally, even though I'm aware it didn't please everyone.

I'm not saying that I see my own gender as incidental -- I enjoy being a lady very much.  I'm saying that when I care about people, it has always been the personality and common interests that we shared that was the draw, rather than the gender.  But I am speaking as someone who had crushes on both boys and girls since before I understood what "crushes" were...I do understand that my experience isn't the norm.  

I just don't see why there needs to be "proof" that Fenris is more attracted to one gender or the other.  He cares about Hawke of either gender no matter what, and even if he had had other relationships, of either gender, (I *really* don't think whatever happened between him and Danarius belongs in a discussion of his preferred sexual orientation), it wouldn't take away from his relationship with Hawke, at least for me.  

[erilben]

Addai67 wrote...

Also seems to me that Anders' romance works best with a male PC.  Evens the score a little from Origins, where I thought hetero female characters had it pretty good, between Alistair and then Zevran saying he prefers women.  In both games, it's the hetero male characters that seem to me to have gotten shafted- no pun intended.
 

Why does the Anders romance work better with male Hawke? The male version of that romance didn't make sense to me because Anders never tells mHawke any of the "I will break your heart" warnings. Instead Anders seems to want to sleep with mHawke right away. But three years go by and nothing happens between them?

And Anders still says to mHawke after the first kiss that "maybe you will finally take my warning!" What warning is he talking about? It's really bad when he tells male Hawke, "I told you I would break your heart". That's actually something only told to female Hawke.

Modifié par erilben, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Arquen]

Plus we have been over the *cough*intimate*cough* thing like a bazillion times. I will refer you to a few pages back since im on the road and don't feel like rehashing that dead horse.

/lack of sleep snarl

[Addai]

TeenZombie wrote...
I just don't see why there needs to be "proof" that Fenris is more attracted to one gender or the other.  He cares about Hawke of either gender no matter what, and even if he had had other relationships, of either gender, (I *really* don't think whatever happened between him and Danarius belongs in a discussion of his preferred sexual orientation), it wouldn't take away from his relationship with Hawke, at least for me.  

I'm not saying what happened with Danarius is any indication of Fenris' preference becuase in that case he had no choice.  I figure that goes without saying, but maybe it doesn't since I keep coming across stories which seem to view rape as sexy and/ or romantic.  I can't even type that without wanting to barf.

I bring up Danarius because the knowledge that he used Fenris in a sexual way makes Fenris running out on Hawke and staying away for 3 years- which otherwise seems kind of melodramatic and puzzling- more understandable.  That's the case even if Hawke is female, but even moreso if male.  The association to the rape would be closer.

As far as preference goes, the fact that he has a fling with Isabela but DG wrote him with a male PC in mind seems to me to indicate he was conceived to be truly bisexual, i.e. equally attracted to both genders.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[Addai]

erilben wrote...
Why does the Anders romance work better with male Hawke? The male version of that romance didn't make sense to me because Anders never tells mHawke any of the "I will break your heart" warnings. Instead Anders seems to want to sleep with mHawke right away. But three years go by and nothing happens between them?

The fact that he tells mHawke about Karl and doesn't do all the "I'm going to hurt you!" stuff sounds like a healthier relationship to me.  All I can say is that those "I'm going to hurt you" lines in Anders' dialogues are pretty much the anti-romance to me.  That's just my personal perception of it, no idea what Hepler actually had in mind.

[Heidenreich]

Arquen wrote...

Plus we have been over the *cough*intimate*cough* thing like a bazillion times. I will refer you to a few pages back since im on the road and don't feel like rehashing that dead horse.

/lack of sleep snarl

Stop lack of sleep snarling, and go read what i emailed you! *hands Arquen coffee and a fluffy pillow and a warm snuggly blanket*

[erilben]

Addai67 wrote...

The fact that he tells mHawke about Karl and doesn't do all the "I'm going to hurt you!" stuff sounds like a healthier relationship to me.  All I can say is that those "I'm going to hurt you" lines in Anders' dialogues are pretty much the anti-romance to me.  That's just my personal perception of it, no idea what Hepler actually had in mind.

You don't have to like that kind of thing, but that doesn't stop making it seems like the romance was written for female Hawke. Did Bioware think men wouldn't like being told "I will break your heart", so they remove it for them?  But doing that makes the male Hawke romance inconsistent and confusing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm glad to see that LJ Smith is getting her props again, though I vastly preferred her Night World series to the Vampire Diaries. Night World was ALL KINDS of beasties and witches and faeries and, yes, vamps, 'cause you can't have an urban fantasy without vamps, with plenty of functional main female characters, many of whom were powered themselves rather than being damsels. I wish it had had a conclusion of some sort.

As for Coffee, Black: I'm at work right now, so here's the AO3 link to get you started. I'll try to link to the k!meme one later, if I can.

[Nilfalasiel]

erilben wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The fact that he tells mHawke about Karl and doesn't do all the "I'm going to hurt you!" stuff sounds like a healthier relationship to me.  All I can say is that those "I'm going to hurt you" lines in Anders' dialogues are pretty much the anti-romance to me.  That's just my personal perception of it, no idea what Hepler actually had in mind.

You don't have to like that kind of thing, but that doesn't stop making it seems like the romance was written for female Hawke. Did Bioware think men wouldn't like being told "I will break your heart", so they remove it for them?  But doing that makes the male Hawke romance inconsistent and confusing.

Actually (correct me if I'm wrong), isn't there a point where Anders says that gender is irrelevant for him? So if you consider that Fenris having a fling with Isabela, but having been written with a male Hawke in mind means that he was written without any gender preference, wouldn't the fact that Anders makes a direct statement about gender not mattering be even more proof that he was written like that as well? (and this despite the fact that he only flirts with females in DAA)

*guh, long confusing sentences*

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm glad to see that LJ Smith is getting her props again, though I vastly preferred her Night World series to the Vampire Diaries. Night World was ALL KINDS of beasties and witches and faeries and, yes, vamps, 'cause you can't have an urban fantasy without vamps, with plenty of functional main female characters, many of whom were powered themselves rather than being damsels. I wish it had had a conclusion of some sort.

As for Coffee, Black: I'm at work right now, so here's the AO3 link to get you started. I'll try to link to the k!meme one later, if I can.

Its like you live inside my head, I swear. That is actually how I feel too. I'm going to forever wait for them to make a Night World series and just flit between the different bits of the world, where some characters are main in some episodes, and others in others. There is a lot of cross over in the books to begin with, so the idea itself would be fun.


Maybe just focus on the two main families, with a smathering of shapeshifters thrown in for good mesure

[Addai]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Actually (correct me if I'm wrong), isn't there a point where Anders says that gender is irrelevant for him? So if you consider that Fenris having a fling with Isabela, but having been written with a male Hawke in mind means that he was written without any gender preference, wouldn't the fact that Anders makes a direct statement about gender not mattering be even more proof that he was written like that as well? (and this despite the fact that he only flirts with females in DAA)

*guh, long confusing sentences*

He only says that to a male PC.  That's when he's talking about Karl.

I'm not talking about the character's preference here.  Rather that the Anders- fHawke dynamic fails for me and what I've heard about the differences with a male PC makes it seem more natural.  Likewise with the new info on Fenris, I'm starting to think it works better with a male PC.

As far as preferences go, I would say that all of the characters were written as "true" bisexuals.  But then I've always said that, contra the people who like to think of the LI's as "straight for your game and gay for mine."

Modifié par Addai67, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Addai67 wrote...

He only says that to a male PC. That's when he's talking about Karl.

That would be why I don't remember actually hearing it. No male Hawkes.

I'm not talking about the character's preference here. Rather that the Anders- fHawke dynamic fails for me and what I've heard about the differences with a male PC makes it seem more natural. Likewise with the new info on Fenris, I'm starting to think it works better with a male PC.

I don't know. From what I hear, the mention of Karl, because it doesn't occur with a FemHawke, feels almost as if it's been thrown in for justification, considering Anders showed considerably more interest in females in DAA. It's as if they were trying to say "see, he was bi all along". I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be a better dynamic. 

Fenris, by contrast, doesn't have that problem. Not sure if there's a difference in his lines to a male Hawke (again, no male Hawkes for me), but if there isn't, whoever you think he works best with is personal preference. I'd think that, depending on just how bad his relationship with Danarius was, it might actually be more difficult for him to be with a male Hawke (even though there's no abuse involved and even though it's been said that the two relationships were completely different). But that's just me.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:24 .

[Sealy]

I must be in a freaking mood cause this branch of convo makes my teeth grind. I'll just get this out of the way, no character can seem any sexuality at all... except for Isabela who is sex-sexual. The rest of the characters are Hawke-sexual  which is nice for me cause all my male playthroughs share my view on what is attractive, and Fenris gets my vote.

In DA:O there were mods and a general upset that certain charcters were strictly straight. Cause male pc's wanted Alistair and females wanted Morrigan. I would have loved that never getting fixed because that was real for this time. If you get called up for duty right now, go out and start recruiting you are going to get a very strong number of straight people in your group, the chances of recruiting gay people are low because they are a minority. So liking someone who wouldn't like you back seemed realistic to me.

I have changed my opinion for DA2 or maybe DA2 changed my opinion for me. The chances of recruiting bisexual people in this day and age is much higher because there is a greater amount of people saying "Hey, liking someone in your own gender won't mean you go to hell." And it is my personal opinion that humans are creatures of pleasure, we seek it out in many forms, I think if it wasn't being drilled into us through media, home life and whatever else they use these days that being gay is apparently wrong there would be no such thing as sexuality, there would just be sex. Back in Dragon Age era we see absolutly no dialogue that supports the chantry being drawn to any sexuality, we don't see parents dissaproval when they *wink wink nudge nudge* toward any LI. There is absolutly no reason for any person in the Dragon Age world to feel like their supposed to be drawn to a specific gender. Except for a Male Hawke who could say "Was it too strange, being with a man? Which I thought was a weird thing to say, still Fenris brushes it off as "Of crourse not". But maybe that works too because back in a day where breeding and carrying the family name are paramount to even love I bet gay relationships are... rare maybe, not the word I want but it will have to do for now.  Of course they all probably have a prefered gender, but I don't think anyone back then would turn down a tumble with a strong, important hottie just because the plumbing is different.

I see Fenris as the last person to ever judge a sexual partner on their appearence, he wants what the personality offers, he... lost my train of thought. Uhg, hate that. wrap it up, Fenris isn't bi, I see him more as pansexual, able to see past the gender of a person or looks period and draw his love for that person from what he sees in their personality.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Addai]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
I don't know. From what I hear, the mention of Karl, because it doesn't occur with a FemHawke, feels almost as if it's been thrown in for justification, considering Anders showed considerably more interest in females in DAA. It's as if they were trying to say "see, he was bi all along". I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be a better dynamic. 

I just don't see any good reason why he shouldn't tell a female Hawke that the guy he just had to murder was his lover.  Since he tells a male PC, it can't be that he considers that too private to talk about.  I've heard the various theories on why he doesn't, but IMO it would be better if he did.  Also, the plethora of "I will hurt you" lines make the romance a complete non-start for me.  Hence why I say that in my head, the romance story line seems to fit better if Hawke is male.

I'd think that, depending on just how bad his relationship with Danarius was, it might actually be more difficult for him to be with a male Hawke (even though there's no abuse involved and even though it's been said that the two relationships were completely different). But that's just me.

I also think it would be more difficult for Fenris- which is exactly why I say the romance story line works better in my mind if I put Fenris together with a male PC.  Because then the running out and the three year gap makes the most sense.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:43 .