CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I disagree with you, Arquen (and we were doing so well, lately), when it comes to the idea that Fenris has fixed himself. It's actually where I differ most from the majority of the denizens of the Fenris thread.
I think that at the end of the game, Fenris still has a serious problem: he's still kind of a bigot. Now, Gaider has been able to do something miraculous here: he's crafted a bigot that I sympathize with, despite the fact that I'm always the kind of person to fight with the Native American metaphor against the American Military metaphor.
It's really interesting because usually, the bigot is the one character type I find it hardest to sympathize with. But I still like Fenris, so much that I've completed his romance twice, and I at least start it almost every playthrough.
For me, Fenris perfectly captures a particular kind of romance that I would, indeed, classify as bittersweet, but that is not the particular bittersweet romance you're describing. Fenris is the argument guy. He's the guy who is almost... almost unreasonable enough that you give up, but not quite. Because you can see the core of goodness under all that scar tissue, and you know that it's reachable, even if the first few years of your relationship are essentially a long argument, punctuated by makeouts.
(Coffee, Black removes this quality from Fenris, making him almost a different character, an elseworlds of himself. That's also why that story is the first time I've ever felt the warm, marshmallow-y type of affection for him. It's also the only scenario in which I currently strongly prefer the friendmance.)
In fiction, I tend to go for the agreeable one, the reasonable one. I've had enough adversarial relationships with guys who were simply infuriating... I don't need to simulate it fictionally. But Fenris manages to capture the good parts of that relationship too: the feeling that you're challenging him, perhaps for the first time. The feeling that he finds you puzzling, because you break all the rules he is so sure are always completely true. The feeling that what you can offer is valuable enough to make him break his own rules.
For me, the most shivery part of the entire Fenris romance is "festis bei umo canavarum." That's what makes me sit back in my chair and grin like an idiot. Almost every other scene, I prefer the friendship path, but watching him pace as he tries to justify the very idea of you to himself... as he's trying to square everything that has happened with his worldview and utterly failing... it's amazing.
I actually originally didn't want to rival him... I felt like he needed a friend, more than anything else. And now, I feel like It's worth having him **** you out about the book because, god of gods, in the long term it's actually bloody better for him to be rivaled. So I have to suck it up and swallow my compassion, and be the fight he needs to have.
And the look he gives you when you tell him he doesn't have to go through this alone and he says "Don't I?"... it gets me every time.
Wait a minute.. wait a minute.... I agree with most of this... how are we disagreeing again?
Plus my bittersweet comments were more a general statement in response to romances in Bioware games and not Fenris' romance specifically.
Fenris is more the "challenge you" guy, but I actually never feel that I want to "give up" talking or even arguing with him. I agree with him a lot of the time. I think about what he says as much as he thinks about what I say. He isn't wrong about a lot of things. He has incredible insight and wisdom into things. Bigot, yes, but not prejudice (that is, discriminating without knowledge). Then again his bigotry is a debateable thing and he can eventually come to let go, change, or at least become less severely opinionated in.
It is the support and "push" from Hawke that does this. As I said it isn't that he is "fixed" at the end of the game... far from it. He still has a lot of issues and personal and emotional struggle that he is going to have to deal with. The point is that I find he deals with these things on his own, with little help from Hawke. That is refreshing to me. I don't want to have to lead him by the hand or change him. I simply offer him my loyalty, support, and friendship. He is the one who takes what I say, and grows because of it. I don't have to do anything other than just be there for him.
As for the rivalmance -- I actually love the rivalmance as well. In its own right it is very refreshing and I think we pretty much feel the same way about it.
The friendmance is my favorite because it more captures myself. I do not disagree with Fenris on a lot of things. I think we challenge eachother, but we also force eachother to realize something we didn't know ourselves. It is a give/take. The way you describe your interactions with Fenris is that he is wrong and unbending to your point of view. He isn't wrong in my eyes. His "bigot" remarks are not so much the bigot in him as the logical thinker in him. I want to see him embrace that hatred he holds and struggles against. Embrace it and use it. Like his markings, as something focused and directed.
What makes me shiver in the dialogue is: "This hate.. I thought I'd gotten away from it, but it dogs me no matter where I go. To feel it again. To know it was they who planted it inside me.. it was too much to bear.." The internal struggle with this is something that draws me to Fenris. In essence he knows he is a bigot. He knows this hate can grow out of control, but he also knows it is something he is more than likely going to have to live with for the rest of his life. That kind of hate doesn't go away. My Hawkes want to go "You don't have to fight against it, but don't let it dictate who you are. That is trading one master for another if you let this control you still. Use it." -- Yet, they don't have to take him by the hand and show him how to do this. He will walk away if you try to help him too much. He needs to figure it out by himself, and that is what I mean when I say I don't have to fix him. He DOES figure it out by himself.
Also, the big difference here is that Fenris does not infuriate me. At. ALL. When he yells at me after Hadrianna, when he is rude to me about my being a mage, when he is angry or callous or what have you. Even when he leaves me I am not infuriated. This is because on a personal level I am a lot like Fenris. I know exactly (or can pretty much guess) where he is coming from emotionally. He does not upset me, ever. Shocking thoughts I know... lol. I find it natural to befriend him. I don't see our relationship as years of arguing with some spot make-outs. I see our "arguments" as more logical and philosophical debates in which we both go home and think about what the other has said, and change our own views slightly because of it. We compliment eachother, we do not infuriate eachother. Hence I like the friendmance more.
As for Coffee, Black -- I find Fen an intriguing character, but I've said it before, he is not Fenris. While a lot like Fenris is many ways, they are not the same. Mostly for reasons you state. If I were to write a character analysis up on Fen it would be very different from Fenris. They may be based on eachother, but Fen is a fraction, a piece, a pale shadow, compared to what Fenris is. That isn't to say that Coffee, Black isn't wonderful -- it IS, but Fen is not on the same page as Fenris. I would never compare the two on any kind of equal footing. That being said.. If Fen makes you feel more warm fuzzies for Fenris than hooray? I like Fenris in his own right. ALL of him.
So, we agree and disagree then? LOL
Modifié par Arquen, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:01 .
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halloween too, and actually have it off this year, makes me do happy dances!
