My Hawke has an alternative... Since there's no point in game where Hawke can argue anything but a sort of vague, "blaming magic isn't the answer" and "all mages aren't evil" sentiment, I don't consider that an argument in favor of Fenris not being willing to condemn an entire group based on the actions of some members of that group.
My Hawke has an alternative as well, but can never offer it either. As I said it's a shame Thedas doesn't work that way. It seems to thrive only on bloodshed and bad to worse decisions. Still, I don't quite follow you on the idea that he condemns all members of a group for the act of a few. He never says all mages are evil. He never makes encompassing statements about mages except one time -- after Hadrianna. Honestly, I excuse that one outrageous statement because it was said in a moment of anger along with the whole "magic touch that it doesn't spoil" thing. Likewise, when he says "may she rot, and all the other mages with her," I take it about as seriously as someone yelling "I swear I'm going to kill you!" during a heated argument.
Where I go for Fenris not condemning all mages is to his Gallows talk. He makes that distinction -- Maker I should just write the damn transcript of that scene. I go back to it so often. He says "I do not doubt that some are good and honorable men." During his act 3 talk as well that infamous "For every mage such as you, Hawke" -- the weak ones, but not ALL mages. It's just impossible to distinguish the weak mages who will do anything for power from the strong ones unless you have some kind of system. Also, that statement about the Circle "I wonder if it is more effective than the one in Tevinter" <--- which is absolutely useless and doesn't do anything to stop, control, or help mages at all besides dragging off the abominations. He admits that there is fear and danger in the Circle. However, that seems to get lost in his "prison" statement and his "I see no oppression here" ending statement. Also, he asks mage Hawke -- "should you be here?" in the Gallows. Clearly that says something. He realizes it is dangerous for a mage to be in the Gallows. He says as much. That seems to go against the whole I support the Circle and the Templars thing.
If you let Ella go, and she says, "There's nowhere in this city I can go where Ser Alrik's men won't find me," you gain rivalry with Fenris. I can't read approval for sending abuse victim back into a situation where she's likely to be abused again as anything but tacitly condoning the abuse.
Fenris throws Quentin in your face, but he never says a word about Alrik, or Karras, or the poor girl in the Gallows who won't talk to you because the Templars will have her flogged. To me, that's as big a blind spot as is Anders saying "We're not going to send these poor fools back to the Circle" after Grace's buddies have just tried to kill you with blood magic.
As for Ella... you can take the aggressive option when she asks about Anders and then tell her to go anywhere safe, and it does nothing to Fenris' rivalry or friendship. The reason you get rivalry for that little scene is moreso because you stick up for Anders who just pretty much proved the point that he has reached his limitations of control. He isn't supporting sending her to the Circle because you can send her somewhere safe as long as you choose an aggro option for the first part. Likewise, if Ella is killed it nets you rivalry with Fenris. So, it's not like he wants to see her hurt, dead, abused, and actually gains points in rivalry if she dies. Again, more because of Anders losing control and killing people, but he sees Ella as a victim in this case none the less.
As for Quentin -- that banter where he says "Ask Hawke about their mother..." Oh, boy.. this is one of those interpretation debates that goes in circles. If anything, Fenris did not mean it as some kind of malicious statement to oust Hawke. He wasn't really referencing how or why Hawke's mother died, but only that mages like Quentin are capable of "going too far." As for Alrik and Kerras, nobody brings them up, and it is kind of a shame, and a flaw in the game somewhat that the mages are thrown at you as bloodmage crazypants, but the Templar's abuses are very tight lipped and only come across if your looking for them or paying close attention. Still, Fenris says that "think of your mother, Hawke, think of the life you've had to lead" statement because he is referencing more the capability of magic in the wrong hands. The whole argument that "well power in any hands can cause harm," and "Quentin is a psycho with or without magic," is true, but the point Fenris makes over and over is that "mages have power enough already" and normal people do not "have demons that try to posses them and control their powers," which is the inherent concern that comes from mages and especially blood mages.It's the same point as "backed into a corner, they got options the rest of us don't." Which is a fair distinction. Mages are not like normal people, and that seems to be missed a lot as well when arguing that a knife wielding psycho can do catastrophic damage so what makes them different from a psycho mage? Well, normal human beings aren't really capable of the kind of things mages are, and possessed humans who aren't mages are rather rare, but even they don't cause so much harm as a posessed mage might. Think of the first magisters. They started the freakin blight. Mages are just different in Thedas, and they are powerful. That's kind of the point.
There isn't? When does he ever express any concern about the behavior of Meredith or the Templars? Even if you're romancing him in Act 3, he basically throws up his hands and tells Meredith you're impossible when you point out that she's part of the problem. Keep in mind that this is after Meredith has threatened you if you're a mage to force you to do "On the Loose".
He tells you that he doesn't care a fig for Meredith. He warns you for being in the Gallows. He won't sell out anyone to the Templars. He actually is accepting when you send Feynriel to Tevinter. I wish someone would comment on Alrik besides Anders, but even then Hawke is like "It was all the work of one man," which didn't help much to support the whole abuses happen every day in the cirlce behind closed doors thing.
When your refering to "On the Loose" -- if you say that you let Emile go, Fenris will say "It's not use. He/she won't listen to you," and while it can be interpreted as "because he/she is impossible I swear!" To me, it's more because Fenris knows Hawke isn't going to back down once he/she has made up their mind. He's almost challenging Meredith, and it is also part of his sardonic side a bit. Saying, "good luck with that, you won't convince him/her." That's already after you turn in the quest though. Unless I'm forgetting some dialogue he says in the first scene with Meredith where she threatens to blackmail you if you don't do the quest?
I serioiusly doubt there are many people who would argue that. But it's hard not to think that the system, as it works in Kirkwall, is completely FUBARed, and I do wish that there were a point where Fenris would acknowledge that. Even if he still comes down on the "mages must be controlled" side of things, having him say, "but I agree that beating and raping them isn't the way to do it " would make my Hawke a lot happier. It's hard for me to see them having a functional relationship as written when Fenris barely tolerates something that's an integral part of who Hawke is.
See I think the same thing here, but more than just specifically with Fenris. Nobody except for Anders really states that the Circle is FUBAR, and only he mentions anything in regards to Alrik and all the things that go on "behind closed doors" there. The closest you can get to Fenris actually admitting that the Circle doesn't work is the "what is the alternative," and the whole "fear and danger" quip. The rest you have to glean from his actions towards the mages.. opting to murder a Templar to help the Starkhaven mages wasn't my idea of a good plan either. Doesn't necessarily mean I support the Templars actions. The whole Feynriel thing, and how he acts at the end where he is willing to admit that "I hope he doesn't live to regret the kindness you've shown him." How he feels about the treatment of Ketojan. I mean, he has empathy for mages, and he is more than willing to kill Alrik. It's just a shame he never says as much, but to me that argument is kind of null and void. To go up to someone and say "you support mages being raped and abused?" and expecting them to go "yeah" is setting up a false dilemma. Fenris isn't going to support rape and abuse, and I don't think his actions terribly support the Circle or the Templars specifically, and they definitely don't support Alrik. Then again it is a fine line too. The argument often moves away from Fenris into "but it wasn't just Alrik..." etc. etc. Which has nothing to do with Fenris or his beliefs really.
But blah.. I feel like I've argued this back and forth a million times, and I'm oh so very tired of wall-of-texting the same damn things. So, I'll kind of leave it at that. Although I have this inkling feeling I'm going to see the same counter-arguments I've seen a bajillion times too. <_< I just.. wall-o-texting.. is so draining, LOL.
Retour en haut
(And I'm a fan of Heiden and Tash too! <3) I also can't speak for Sia's
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Thank you for the rec, Ursula. 
