55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Arquen]

Alright so here is a question -- since we are more on the aspect of fanfic errr fenfic the last few pages.

How would you write a rivalmance? I find that whenever I try to sit down and actually write one I find it lacking, or just plain difficult. Whenever I read them they tend to be downright violent, and that's not really how I see the rivalmance in game. Fenris isn't really violent with Hawke, he gets growly in act 3 but appologizes. I just.. I'm having a hard time finding a "voice" for a rival Fenris.

The Fenris in my head is my BFF, and I agree with him most times. Other times I roll my eyes and tease him, but I don't ever get angry or growly or downright want to slap him for saying things. Hence, when I try to get into that "rival" mood I just can't seem to get there. Anyone have any good suggestions for rival fics or just.. how to write rivalmance? LOL

I find it is a weak point of mine. Even though I actually do enjoy the rivalmance in game, and I understand the workings of it and the reasoning behind it. I just find it hard to believe Fenris is so violent and moody and off the rails angry as some fics make him in a rivalmance.

thoughts?

LMAO another TOP.. ummm.. errr... Oh screw it...


by Armesan on DA -- because I was writing a rainy scene in my fic... 

Modifié par Arquen, 10 novembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Sialater]

I was just thinking about this, Arquen. I think that it'd have to be an undeniable physical attraction, pure heat. Then you throw in the philosophically irreconcilable differences that cause a huge chasm between them. I think it'd be a lot of arguing, but with respect growing between them as they continue to disagree, or in some cases, see the other's point.

[Annarl]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

omearaee wrote...
This is tumblr... https://www.tumblr.com/  

yeah, I was just being snarky hense the smiley devil face
dang interwebs, hard to convey snarky-ness online

@Rei - that is awesome!

I totally missed it.   That's unusual for me my snark meter is usually very good, being snarky myself .  That's what I get for quick reading;)

[Harle Cerulean]

Arquen wrote...


Alright so here is a question -- since we are more on the aspect of fanfic errr fenfic the last few pages.

How would you write a rivalmance? I find that whenever I try to sit down and actually write one I find it lacking, or just plain difficult. Whenever I read them they tend to be downright violent, and that's not really how I see the rivalmance in game. Fenris isn't really violent with Hawke, he gets growly in act 3 but appologizes. I just.. I'm having a hard time finding a "voice" for a rival Fenris.

When I write the rivalmance, I try to capture my feelings on it: that there's incredible respect for each other, and immense physical attraction. The rivalmance has never seemed like a "hatemance" to me (which is why I want to tear my hair out when people compare the rivalmance to Fenders). It gets loud when they argue, sure, but they have that strong core of respect that brings them back to each other and lets them apologize and forgive. Fenris respects Hawke's conviction and strength even though he disagrees with Hawke's actions, and Hawke respects Fenris' experiences, rather than dismissing them like a certain mage does.

So for me, the main difference from the friendmance is that the angry periods last a little longer, and it's respect that is the real glue between them rather than affection, at first. Of course I think the rivalmance also builds the affection, but it comes more slowly, because while it's easy to respect someone who disagrees with you, it takes a little more work to love them.

LMAO another TOP.. ummm.. errr... Oh screw it...

That seems to happen to you a lot.  XD

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[Annarl]

Arquen wrote...

Alright so here is a question -- since we are more on the aspect of fanfic errr fenfic the last few pages.

How would you write a rivalmance? I find that whenever I try to sit down and actually write one I find it lacking, or just plain difficult. Whenever I read them they tend to be downright violent, and that's not really how I see the rivalmance in game. Fenris isn't really violent with Hawke, he gets growly in act 3 but appologizes. I just.. I'm having a hard time finding a "voice" for a rival Fenris.

The Fenris in my head is my BFF, and I agree with him most times. Other times I roll my eyes and tease him, but I don't ever get angry or growly or downright want to slap him for saying things. Hence, when I try to get into that "rival" mood I just can't seem to get there. Anyone have any good suggestions for rival fics or just.. how to write rivalmance? LOL

I find it is a weak point of mine. Even though I actually do enjoy the rivalmance in game, and I understand the workings of it and the reasoning behind it. I just find it hard to believe Fenris is so violent and moody and off the rails angry as some fics make him in a rivalmance.

thoughts?

LMAO another TOP.. ummm.. errr... Oh screw it...


by Armesan on DA -- because I was writing a rainy scene in my fic... 

Writing a rivalry romance is tough.  I too have read a few (when I was reading fanfic), that equate violence with rivalry.  And to me that is not the same.  Rivalry is more about pushing each others boundries, to the point of being uncomfortable but not to the point to violence...that can quickly become abuse.  I see the rivalmance as learning to see the other's point of view while agreeing to disagree (or not in some cases). 

[Sialater]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I tried to filter the audio a bit to make it clearer. Hopefully with all the vids out there, this may fill in some missing pieces. 

youtu.be/2dRlVzMdcos

thanks for posting it up!
dang, still can't quite make out exactly what he is saying in response, so close...

edit to add - okay I emailed Mr Emery about it, maybe he'll reply and shed some light for us

Ah!  So THAT's why Fenris doesn't sound QUITE British.

[Ryzaki]

...I'm playing Skyrim and I could've sworn I heard Emery during the initial sequence.

[Sialater]

IMDB lists him as in it. Doesn't say what character though.

[Sealy]

Voila, my version of the riralmance from my snarky mage Hawke POV... well at least this persons and my headcanon. Also one of my fave fics, can't believe I haven't rec'd it before. 

Me (Its What's For Dinner) 

Thats how I hope the rivalmance goes with my snark Hawkes, with my diplo I can see using their more passive attitude against them, then seeing that hurt expression and feeling so bad, where the aggro Hawkes, I can see them getting violent. Fenris backs down but my Hawke only lets him take off cause the game makes him, mostly he wants to wrestle and if all else fails yell some sense into Fenris. Cause my aggro Hawkes are all warriors and absolutly volatile when it comes to defending his baby sister and dad, I mean why do you thing Bethany is so sweet and innocent, and virginal. Hawke greets suitors with a bat. He pays Templars to preform the rite of tranquility on mages that look at his sister funny in the tower, thats why there are so many more in act 2. 

[Heidenreich]

Ryzaki wrote...

...I'm playing Skyrim and I could've sworn I heard Emery during the initial sequence.

SHUT UP I HATE YOU SO MUCH

WHY IS IT NOT MIDNIGHT YET.

*goes back to writing to distract brain*

[Dutchess]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Arquen wrote...


Alright so here is a question -- since we are more on the aspect of fanfic errr fenfic the last few pages.

How would you write a rivalmance? I find that whenever I try to sit down and actually write one I find it lacking, or just plain difficult. Whenever I read them they tend to be downright violent, and that's not really how I see the rivalmance in game. Fenris isn't really violent with Hawke, he gets growly in act 3 but appologizes. I just.. I'm having a hard time finding a "voice" for a rival Fenris.

When I write the rivalmance, I try to capture my feelings on it: that there's incredible respect for each other, and immense physical attraction. The rivalmance has never seemed like a "hatemance" to me (which is why I want to tear my hair out when people compare the rivalmance to Fenders). It gets loud when they argue, sure, but they have that strong core of respect that brings them back to each other and lets them apologize and forgive. Fenris respects Hawke's conviction and strength even though he disagrees with Hawke's actions, and Hawke respects Fenris' experiences, rather than dismissing them like a certain mage does.

So for me, the main difference from the friendmance is that the angry periods last a little longer, and it's respect that is the real glue between them rather than affection, at first. Of course I think the rivalmance also builds the affection, but it comes more slowly, because while it's easy to respect someone who disagrees with you, it takes a little more work to love them.

I agree. My fic is actually about a rivalmance, but it's definitely not violent in nature. The rival relation with Fenris is more about challenging his ideas about mages and magic. Trying to make him see magic is not responsible for all the/his misery. This works especially well with a mage Hawke (as in my story). At least, I feel that's how it's supposed to be. A flaw with the game mechanics is that you gain rivalry too by being just an awful person, never understanding for his problems (saying he whines too much for instance) and taking that elf girl as a slave into your house. I'm having a hard time imagining a good and strong relationship like that. In that case you could only have some very strong physical attraction, but that should not be the nature of the Hawke-Fenris relationship. There has to be this respect, that's key in the rival relations. Just being unkind doesn't yield respect and is certainly not the foundation for an intimite relationship. Well, it shouldn't at least. At least one of the two persons in a relationship like that will end up unhappy.


@ Arquen: thank you for the link. I will certainly take a look at it. It's not that I have never read romantic books with love scenes in it. I have read some, and not all were that great. In novels like that they go all overboard with words like "spear" or  sword" and... well, it makes me giggle more than that it actually arouses. I can recommend the Kushiel trilogy, however. Amazing story, and has some steamy love scenes in it. 
And the problem is that the books I've read are all about male-female love, nog male-male. Like I said, I think I could somehow manage a heterosexual scene... okay, well, maybe... that's still hard too. But same sex is even harder, at least for me.

[Ryzaki]

Heidenreich wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...I'm playing Skyrim and I could've sworn I heard Emery during the initial sequence.

SHUT UP I HATE YOU SO MUCH

WHY IS IT NOT MIDNIGHT YET.

*goes back to writing to distract brain*

:crying:

[ReiSilver]

About rivalmance I agree it doesn't necessarily = violence on either part but it depends what kind of Hawke you're playing. Going from what stuck with me playing through it it seemed to hinge on both being unrelenting on their position on magic but still respecting each other and having enough appreciation for their other qualities that they're still comrades.
I think Fenris gets really frustrated with Rivalmanced Hawke but he also seems more protective like with the Fade incident where, being pro-mage Hawke is left with the more optimistic/less safe position. It also goes the other way where if Hawke is a jerk about Fenris' past you get rivalry, but you also get rivalry for the 'I'm sorry.' sympathetic response.
For me it's all about conflicting emotions because while they disagree they can still be nice to each other on the rivalmance, so less hatemance more you-drive-me-crazy, if that makes sense?

[UrsulaCousland]

Yeow, so much to respond to!

Arquen wrote...

I always hear either Garrus or Thane as well.. if your going for characters like Fenris. However, none of them are actually very much like Fenris, just some similarities. One day I'll try Mass Effect... one day...

*snip*

Alright.. have to go to work tomorrow and have so many things I want/need to do! Plus this weekend I'm going to be out of town for my b-day *happydance*

Happy birthday! If I could draw, I'd do something for you. :happy:

RE: Thane and Garrus - no, neither of them is an exact match to Fenris. Both have their similarities, though I would say Thane is probably closer. Garrus is actually quite different from Fenris but still spends some time in the brood-box in ME2. (Garrus also reacts to humor very well and is more than happy to pass out deadpan snark.)

Arquen wrote...

Fenris: *stops mid-chew and stares at his apple* That's not funny, Hawke.

Alright.. off to work on fic.. *skips away* You guys made me blush with your comments.

*ROFL* Nice dialog! 

@Fleshy - I'll message you re: ME. Enough OT for me.

About writing rivalry...

That's tough. I don't see it as a hatemance either. I can see a fic Rivalmance being very confrontational, but more in the way that two people who are passionate about something can go at it enthusiastically but not hate each other. (I point to some of my Dem/Repub friends... or Packers/Vikings households *lol* )  Being on opposing sides of a viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean violent confrontations, nor should it. 

I see it more as an opposites attract relationship, where the differences bring something to the table too.  Such relationships can be very sweet, actually, even if the discussions are...spirited.   I think if I write a rival-y scene or two, I'll try to put myself in a mental place where Hubby and I have disagreed vehemently on something but still be in a typically sweet/even-keeled relationship. IN fact, it's because of some of those 'arguments' that we're as strong as we are. 

I'm probably forgetting something I wanted to respond to here, so ... probably more later.

Modifié par UrsulaCousland, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:41 .

[UrsulaCousland]

renjility wrote...

*snip*

A Flaw with the game mechanics is that you gain rivalry too by being just an awful person, never understanding for his problems (saying he whines too much for instance) and taking that elf girl as a slave into your house. I'm having a hard time imagining a good and strong relationship like that. In that case you could only have some very strong physical attraction, but that should not be the nature of the Hawke-Fenris relationship. There has to be this respect, that's key in the rival relations. Just being unkind doesn't yield respect and is certainly not the foundation for an intimite relationship. Well, it shouldn't at least. At least one of the two persons in a relationship like that will end up unhappy.

 
I agree too - and that's why I wince at some of the things I end up doing in-game along those lines. I think it's one of the appealing things about fanfic for DA2 - we can present our own interpretations of how a given scene might have gone instead of the cringe-worthy stuff our Hawkes do in game.

renjility wrote...
@ Arquen: thank you for the link. I will certainly take a look at it. It's not that I have never read romantic books with love scenes in it. I have read some, and not all were that great. In novels like that they go all overboard with words like "spear" or  sword" and... well, it makes me giggle more than that it actually arouses. I can recommend the Kushiel trilogy, however. Amazing story, and has some steamy love scenes in it. 
And the problem is that the books I've read are all about male-female love, nog male-male. Like I said, I think I could somehow manage a heterosexual scene... okay, well, maybe... that's still hard too. But same sex is even harder, at least for me.

Bahahahahaha. Yeah...a lot of 'smut' out there reads as comedy, if you think about it.  (Not yours!)  And the reason I write "FemProtagonist x MaleLI" fic is because that's what I can wrap my head around. I'm honing my writing skills on what I know (het female) - the idea of trying to write S/S makes me very nervous because I'm afraid it would sound completely stupid. *shrug* (That and I'd rather write het - I hope no one thinks less of me for that, but I'm a little afraid something I said a couple of pages back may have brought the Tumblr folks out to troll b/c it was taken out of context.)

Oops gotta go. *waves*

[Hilde]

I drew my first ever portrait of Fenris and wanted to share!



I saw mention of prompts, will they be restarted? I cannot promise every week, but it seems like fun.

[Arcane_Solona]

@Hilde That is a very interesting, modernised portrait! I haven't seen one like it. I really like it! And I love how you've captured his impeccable Grecian nose! (I have a thing for his nose).

[aldien]

I’ve been reading through the posts a bit. I don't make many
comments, but the subject concerning writing erotica caught my attention.

I'm going to indulge a bit. Bear with me. Years ago, I wrote Silmarillion
fanfic. I couldn't write about a kiss without blushing. To write it, you have
to feel it and visualize it in your head. But, when people read your writing,
usually they are not thinking about it being you who imagined those images,
but, instead, they place themselves in that role.

So, Hawke and Fenris have a sex scene in your story. The person
is usually pretending to be Hawke in their mind. They don't care, to a degree,
what you think. They want Fenris to love them. That's all they care about.
Humans are selfish that way. It's self preservation. That is not to say they
don’t appreciate what you have written. But they want the romance with him. Isn’t
that why we share it with others? We want them to feel and understand how we
love him too? Maybe that’s just me.

I admit it is difficult to write smut, especially the first few times. But,
once you get over the embarrassment, it really is a freeing experience. I hope
those who are attempting it don't give up due to embarrassment. At the end of
the day, it's fun. Sex is normal and reading heavy romance about your favorite
mythical characters is a joy. Try not to overanalyze it too much. Just have fun.

My two dirty cents worth.

Modifié par aldien, 11 novembre 2011 - 12:54 .

[Hilde]

Arcane_Solona wrote...

@Hilde That is a very interesting, modernised portrait! I haven't seen one like it. I really like it! And I love how you've captured his impeccable Grecian nose! (I have a thing for his nose).

Thank you! I love his nose as well, the shape is amazing!

[Arcane_Solona]

aldien wrote...

I’ve been reading through the posts a bit. I don't make many
comments, but the subject concerning writing erotica caught my attention.

I'm going to indulge a bit. Bear with me. Years ago, I wrote Silmarillion
fanfic. I couldn't write about a kiss without blushing. To write it, you have
to feel it and visualize it in your head. But, when people read your writing,
usually they are not thinking about it being you who imagined those images,
but, instead, they place themselves in that role.

So, Hawke and Fenris have a sex scene in your story. The person
is usually pretending to be Hawke in their mind. They don't care, to a degree,
what you think. They want Fenris to love them. That's all they care about.
Humans are selfish that way. It's self preservation. That is not to say they
don’t appreciate what you have written. But they want the romance with him. Isn’t
that why we share it with others? We want them to feel and understand how we
love him too? Maybe that’s just me.

I admit it is difficult to write smut, especially the first few times. But,
once you get over the embarrassment, it really is a freeing experience. I hope
those who are attempting it don't give up due to embarrassment. At the end of
the day, it's fun. Sex is normal and reading heavy romance about your favorite
mythical characters is a joy. Try not to overanalyze it too much. Just have fun.

My two dirty cents worth.

Thank you so much for that, aldien. You're completely right; whenever I read Fenris-related smut (it's the only smut I've ever read, well that and an Alistair one) I never think about the fact that the writer visualised all those things in their head when writing it. All I think about is the scene itself, and I place myself in the moment, enjoying the romance of the story, which is really an essential part of all DA2 LI relationships. It's what draws us to the game and adds to the depth of the story, I think. 

You're completely right. You've really alleviated the fear/reluctance I had about writing smut, and you've put it in a very sensible and mature perspective.

Thanks again!

Modifié par Arcane_Solona, 11 novembre 2011 - 01:37 .

[SurrealSadi]

Sialater wrote...

AbsoluteApril wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I tried to filter the audio a bit to make it clearer. Hopefully with all the vids out there, this may fill in some missing pieces. 

youtu.be/2dRlVzMdcos

thanks for posting it up!
dang, still can't quite make out exactly what he is saying in response, so close...

edit to add - okay I emailed Mr Emery about it, maybe he'll reply and shed some light for us

Ah!  So THAT's why Fenris doesn't sound QUITE British.

Part of it was 'walk off somewhere' I think... It's low and kinda mumbly.

[GhostlyMaiden]

renjility wrote...

*snip*

A Flaw with the game mechanics is that you gain rivalry too by being just an awful person, never understanding for his problems (saying he whines too much for instance) and taking that elf girl as a slave into your house. I'm having a hard time imagining a good and strong relationship like that. In that case you could only have some very strong physical attraction, but that should not be the nature of the Hawke-Fenris relationship. There has to be this respect, that's key in the rival relations. Just being unkind doesn't yield respect and is certainly not the foundation for an intimite relationship. Well, it shouldn't at least. At least one of the two persons in a relationship like that will end up unhappy.

As an interesting tidbit, a diplomatic Hawke can actually turn those rivalry points with Orana into neutral via the "what else she will do?" option. Hawke will reason that Orana doesn't have the strength and skill to survive on her own like Fenris can and thus she would be better off working for Hawke. Fenris grudgingly admits that Hawke has a point. The other two types of Hawke lack the reasoning ability and thus Fenris snaps at them for suggesting that a slave is all Orana is good for. In this sense, Orana may not be so much a slave as she is Hawke's ward.

Rivalmance is a difficult territory to navigate, but I believe the key point of conflict ultimately resides in pride and what eventually pushes them together is respect. Hence the reason for Fenris's reactions to gifts and his reaction during Night Terrors. He doesn't want to seem weak in Hawke's eyes, so he tries to shift the blame a bit when it comes to his faults (though he is at least modest enough to acknowledge he has them) and that's why he's quicker to reject "pity" as opposed to friendship. I was never surprised by his reactions, but I was annoyed at points. Seriously, dude. Not everything has to be a bloody contest.

Another way to look at an aggressive Hawke is that it isn't so much about lacking empathy as it may just be tough love. "So, you're being hunted by your old master who burned lyrium into your skin against your will leaving you without any memories of your family and life before. Well, I was born with magic which I never asked for, been on the run from templars since I was a child, and you know what my memories consist of? My sister being crushed by an ogre, my brother dying in the Deep Roads, and my mother being used in some patchwork doll to replace a dead man's wife!" So, there's definitely empathy there, but Hawke takes on a more assertive "This is how life is. Deal with it already." instead of the "Oh, you poor thing!" sympathy route.

A common start off point in most of my favorite rivalmance/rivalship pairings in the past is that one character is extremely withdrawn and asocial while the other is extroverted and gets along well with their peers. The extrovert may try the friendly route, but the introvert just gives them the cold shoulder. Then the extrovert attempts to provoke them, either in a battle of wits, or a sport/fighting challenge. A routine develops between them and from there, they begin to engage in more standard friendship type interactions which eventually culminates into romance. It's totally in my headcanon that my rivalmance Hawke enjoyed using her rogue abilities to sneak into Fenris's mansion and launch "surprise attacks", saying stuff like how did he expect to fight off Danarius if he could get caught off guard so easily, or that he needs to set up better defenses and such. 

Just my two cents on rivalmances.

*Edited for grammar errors. Ugh.

Modifié par GhostlyMaiden, 11 novembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Arquen]

Reading through, and pretty much agreeing with the rivalmance analogy here. Still, I find myself having a hard time visualizing an actual argument. I mean, when Hawke lays into Fenris about magic/mages he doesn't exactly back down. Eould he throw up his hands and be like "your impossible!?" I just... don't see that either. I tend to focus it more on the "one day you will see, and you better not get hurt because of your naive approach." Ala Grace style....

I also see him respecting strength, but when I play my aggro Hawke you are being brutally honest and blunt/rude. The You whine and slaves are useful is just Hawke saying what they feel. They don't care about other's circumstances. They have no filter and couldn't care less if they offend. Fenris takes some if these well, but he fights back when H awke goes over the line, always saying what he thinks as well.

I get the rivalmance... i do... it's writing the arguments I get stuck in. The "who backs down first," and the "why do I like you again?" Thing get me sometimes. It's not aggro Hawke it's that Fenris and Hawke both refuse to step back once they believe something. The only thing is Fenris will still be there regardless simply because you ask him. Why?

[Arcane_Solona]

"Why do I like you again?" really made me laugh. Lol.

You raise some interesting points there, Arquen. I guess the question of who backs down first depends on your Hawke's personality. If he/she are the type to let people have the last word, then I guess he/she backs down first. That said, I don't really see Fenris as the sort to draw out an argument. From what I see in the game and from what I think, he'll argue his point, and if you don't agree with him, he just sort of drops it. I don't know if that's 'backing down' per se, but in many cases, he seems willing to end an argument, because of his exasperation more so than just giving you the last word.

Gah, I dunno. If it were my Hawke, she'd probably bicker and bicker until she loses her voice, so I see Fenris as the one stepping down in that relationship. Again, I don't really feel comfortable using the words "stepping or backing down", because that's not really what he does, but he'll just let you know that he still thinks your wrong and he'll end it at that.

On a slightly different note, here's some shameless self-promo: Chapter 9 of The Wolf's Imprint is up! Muahaha! I'm getting into serious exam prep mode starting tomorrow, so I think the rate at which I'll be updating the story will be slower than it has been this past week. Maybe it won't . It really all depends on my brain's ability to think and be creative after hours and hours of study. 

Modifié par Arcane_Solona, 11 novembre 2011 - 05:48 .

[GhostlyMaiden]

I'd say in a "proper" rivalmance neither side should "win" in a sense. I think what initially drew me into rival-based romances as opposed to friend-based romances was how often friend-based romances often make it seem like one character influences the other so much that their whole personality changes. Like the cliche hyperactive, sweet girl softens the lone wolf/bad boy relationship. A lot of stories I read turn them into uber gentlemanly, overly affectionate, stepford boyfriends. It's cute I'll admit, but it kind of gives this sense that being the reserved, quiet type with a bit of a temper is "wrong" even if said boy had never really gotten into trouble in the first place (other than being labeled as a "delinquent" based solely on appearances).

In contrast, in the rival-based relationship the two more or less seem to understand that this is how the other is. They'll argue and fight and at best all they really can expect is to gain a bit of an edge in their side of the argument. Why do they stick together even when they annoy each other so much? Maybe the sex is good. Maybe they enjoy the challenge. Maybe they get lonely when the other is gone. Maybe that's just how it is. Maybe, maybe, maybe...I like variety .

Then again, Fenris's rivalry description does say "Fenris has agreed to disagree." Maybe that's how most arguments are likely to work between Fenris and Hawke, assuming the Hawke you have in mind is the type willing to just "drop" the subject and go cool off somewhere/change to a more neutral topic. Otherwise, Hawke may try to keep at it and in a worst case scenario the argument will start resorting to personal attacks to try and get the point across which upsets the other who may retaliate with a personal attack and then they eventually storm off, slamming doors and not talking to each other for about 3 weeks.

That's what I've heard on the road anyhow. Take it for what it is.