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[CuriousArtemis]

Arquen wrote...

Also, as much as Anders and Fenris hate each other I don't see Anders being able to stand seeing Fenris like that either. It's one thing to make a crude and harsh comment when you sell him back, but a completely different thing when faced with the actual reality. In essence Fenris is Tranquil, and I don't think Anders could live with himself or a Hawke who did that to him for NO OTHER REASON than to gain power and influence. Which is just what Fenris *says* mages do.

What exactly does Anders say if Hawke gives Fenris back?  Of course I've never had to heart to play that scenario out; I can't even watch YouTube clips of it.  I really like Anders, and a comment like that is almost unforgiveable, but I can perhaps blame it on Anders' fury towards Fenris who refuses to see how the plight of the mages is similar to his own.  I like to think that Anders later regrets it, and I don't personally see how any of Hawke's companions could stay with him or her after s/he'd done such a thing.

Honestly, I don't think you should even have the chance to give Fenris back, or if you do, then all your companions should leave your side.  What about Varric or Aveline suggests that they would willingly follow such a person.  Isabela is perhaps the only person who would stay, but Isabela has the ability to willfully not see the bad in a person.

[GhostlyMaiden]

Arquen wrote...

@ GhostMaiden: Simultaneously proving Fenris completely right about mages and power and manipulation, LOL. Sorry, nope. Even as a story where you inherit him. He's just slave Fenris. Also, always in the back of your mind is the knowledge of WHO he is outside of being a slave. It would cause paranoia to say the least. He will serve you because he has too, but there is no "will" in it. It's a broken doll. Someone would really, REALLY, have to hate Fenris to do this. Not even worth it. Nope. Not in a million years. Also, as much as Anders and Fenris hate each other I don't see Anders being able to stand seeing Fenris like that either. It's one thing to make a crude and harsh comment when you sell him back, but a completely different thing when faced with the actual reality. In essence Fenris is Tranquil, and I don't think Anders could live with himself or a Hawke who did that to him for NO OTHER REASON than to gain power and influence. Which is just what Fenris *says* mages do.

Yeah.. nope. Not really feasible to me, LOL.

Actually, she's a sociopath. She has no moral conscience whatsoever. She doesn't feel anything for Fenris at all. She doesn't even feel anything for Anders. She is only using him to have a demon at her beck and call. I don't sense any paranoia from her. She's a "kindly" magister. No unnecessary torture. No sexual abuse. Punishments are never severe enough to cause permanent damage. Her slaves are like tools to a carpenter. You take good care of them so that you can use them properly. Without his memories, Fenris holds no grudges towards her, because he's never seen her commit any cruel acts.

About Anders, yeah, that may be a bit of a stretch. I'm leaning towards her reasoning ability being that damn good and/or the fact that Anders really could reach such a state eventually. Fenris hates mages. Anders hates templars. What's different between the two of them is that Anders also seems to regard mages as saints who can do no wrong, and they only turn to blood magic out of desperation not power. There's his comment about sacrificing a templar to save "innocent" mages. Then there's his comment after your mother dies when he says he can't believe a mage would do such a thing. If he gets kidnapped during Best Served Cold, he comments that he hadn't been expecting "one of his own" to take him down.
 
One theory could be that Vengeance is warping his mind, trying to victimize mages as much as possible in order to justify his hate for templars. Demons and spirits have proven to be single-minded. Combine that with the persuasive words of a lover and fellow supporter of mage freedom and I could see a mind messed up enough to roll with it.

Good mention of the tranquil, because I agree. I had a couple of fanfic ideas. "Parallels" has the rivalmance and friendmance LIs swapping universes during the game while "Parallels 2" has the Hawkes swapping after the game. Rivalmancer Hawke is pissed when he sees what happened to Fenris. "Oh yes, he's so much happier now. So compliant. So willing. So very much tranquil." Not really sure how that works out from there, but I love that statement.

[Arquen]

Hawke to Danarius: If you want him, he's yours.

Fenris: WHAT!?

Anders: I thought I was the only one thinking that.

Party members going: Egads?! WHat? OMG NO.. ARE YOU HIGH? WTF HAWKE!? (except Anders)

Danarius: Interesting, I'll make it worth your while of course. The power of the Imperium will be at your disposal.

Fenris: DON'T do this Hawke. I need you.

and.. I just.. I .. *traumatized* LOL. Seriously... WHY?

[CuriousArtemis]

Arquen wrote...

Hawke to Danarius: If you want him, he's yours.

Fenris: WHAT!?

Anders: I thought I was the only one thinking that.

Party members going: Egads?! WHat? OMG NO.. ARE YOU HIGH? WTF HAWKE!? (except Anders)

Danarius: Interesting, I'll make it worth your while of course. The power of the Imperium will be at your disposal.

Fenris: DON'T do this Hawke. I need you.

and.. I just.. I .. *traumatized* LOL. Seriously... WHY?

 Okay that's just eff-ing horrific LOL

I would like a sarcastic/snarky response that went something like ... "If you want him, take him."  *pause*  "Just kidding!  I love that grumpy little curmudgeon.  But sadly that means I'm going to have to kill you now.  Sorry!"

Anders...!  *shakes head*  I'm blaming Justice.  

[Arquen]

yeah, the question remains .. Why? Why RP a made-up story like this just for the line crossing and sadism and see how much you can stomach?

As I said, no matter what justifications you throw at it, the whole thing holds absolutely no interest to me. There just isn't any point for me. No pleasure in it. No fun. Not even good cathartic "watch out we got a badass over here!" -- It's that thin line between utter villain that is just 100% black and evil and Disney-esque "I'm evil for REASONS RAHH!" and that character development of someone who has an actual pathology and needs to do these things because they can't function any other way.

Sociopaths do have paranoia, and while they manipulate people and can use them like tools, they do feel emotions, just not empathy. They can not feel empathy. It isn't in their brain chemistry. They are also often antisocial and the best serial killers usually are antisocial vs sociopathic pathology. So, yeah even a Hawke who did all this for the lulz and manipulation would still WANT something out of it, and would have a fear and paranoia of those things slipping away from them. Plus, as much wiggle room as you allow Hawke, a true antisocial sociopath is not a feasible Champion of Kirkwall, LOL. It just.. again.. why?

I grow disgusted, and just simply do not agree with it.

[Ghost_Nappa]

motomotogirl wrote...

Arquen wrote...

Hawke to Danarius: If you want him, he's yours.

Fenris: WHAT!?

Anders: I thought I was the only one thinking that.

Party members going: Egads?! WHat? OMG NO.. ARE YOU HIGH? WTF HAWKE!? (except Anders)

Danarius: Interesting, I'll make it worth your while of course. The power of the Imperium will be at your disposal.

Fenris: DON'T do this Hawke. I need you.

and.. I just.. I .. *traumatized* LOL. Seriously... WHY?

 Okay that's just eff-ing horrific LOL

I would like a sarcastic/snarky response that went something like ... "If you want him, take him."  *pause*  "Just kidding!  I love that grumpy little curmudgeon.  But sadly that means I'm going to have to kill you now.  Sorry!"

Anders...!  *shakes head*  I'm blaming Justice.  

Thats just kitten drowning material right there...granted I dont have the heart to do that and I thought of how a dwarf looks getting hit top down with a giant hammer. But that...just. No <_<.  Moto I might agre with you in the "lets shake on to seal the deal, then headbutt pysche"

[Arquen]

Oh and btw I plan on chugging a crap ton of THIS:



*passes bottle around*

Also, how about we get this back on track with roleplaying a Hawke who actually, you know, doesn't want to use and abuse and traumatize everyone they meet.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I can't even give Fenris away with my evil Hawkes. The fact that Danarius only gives Hawke 5 Sovereigns nips that in the bud.

[Ghost_Nappa]

Arquen wrote...

Oh and btw I plan on chugging a crap ton of THIS:



*passes bottle around*

Also, how about we get this back on track with roleplaying a Hawke who actually, you know, doesn't want to use and abuse and traumatize everyone they meet.

Mmmmmmmm thats Gyuuuood brainbleach!

*Ahem* If I were to roleplay Hawke it be basically winning Fenris over with food. Gotta keep that warriors stamina up. *nudge nudge*.

[esper]

Arquen wrote...

yeah, the question remains .. Why? Why RP a made-up story like this just for the line crossing and sadism and see how much you can stomach?

As I said, no matter what justifications you throw at it, the whole thing holds absolutely no interest to me. There just isn't any point for me. No pleasure in it. No fun. Not even good cathartic "watch out we got a badass over here!" -- It's that thin line between utter villain that is just 100% black and evil and Disney-esque "I'm evil for REASONS RAHH!" and that character development of someone who has an actual pathology and needs to do these things because they can't function any other way.

Sociopaths do have paranoia, and while they manipulate people and can use them like tools, they do feel emotions, just not empathy. They can not feel empathy. It isn't in their brain chemistry. They are also often antisocial and the best serial killers usually are antisocial vs sociopathic pathology. So, yeah even a Hawke who did all this for the lulz and manipulation would still WANT something out of it, and would have a fear and paranoia of those things slipping away from them. Plus, as much wiggle room as you allow Hawke, a true antisocial sociopath is not a feasible Champion of Kirkwall, LOL. It just.. again.. why?

I grow disgusted, and just simply do not agree with it.

I tried once to let my Rival Hawke sell Fenris out because she was still mad about him sleeping with her and then leaving her. (Yes, she was that petty). But I just kept post-poning the quest untill it was the last one before Last Straw and then I think I spend 40 minutes on the map screen trying to get my self to press the Hanged Man icon. Then I gave up and just didn't do the quest.
There are just some options that are not interesting to take no matter who you role play.

[Arquen]

Totally off topic Ghost_Nappa -- BUT Holy Andraste! I love Team Fourstar and Ghost Nappa KILLS me.

So, yeah even my bloodmage rival everyone playthrough was difficult for me. FOREVERALONE except for the Fenris rivalmance. Everyone else pretty much hated her guts. She was completely aggro, and everyone died, her mother, brother, everyone. Still, to make it a more "real" character, because I just can't play flat villains for no reason, I roleplayed her being on the brink of sanity and having Fenris there to make her realize her own limitations and mortality. I think she actually became attached to Fenris -- in that way where she couldn't imagine her life without him challenging her all the time. Deep down she knows she is broken, and that she drives people away, and she also knows that she turned to bloodmagic because at her core she was afraid. Afraid that without it she would be sent to the Circle, made Tranquil, unable to protect herself. That feeling of being powerless scared her.

So even though she was pretty rotten to the core and didn't have much empathy for anyone, she still had fears and personal demons to deal with, and she still ended up with Fenris.

[Ghost_Nappa]

@Arquen why thank you, I was really tying away from a name that was associated with my nickname. And yes...who doesnt Love Ghost Nappa?

Also...wow your hawke sounds better than mine. I just never used bloodmagic without thinking, I can just do that witht he other spells. I can use puppetry with Force, boil their blood with fire or freeze is with ice. Hell Anurysms can be used by force magic...its just pressure of blood vessel popping from clogged veins. Why not with magic that way nones the wiser writing it off as a natural cause.

Only safe way I can think of blood magic being useful and demon free is that time of the month...Im just saying its monthly, free and leaves no cutting...then again the templars might just imprision all women due to that logic.

[syllogi]

esper wrote...

I tried once to let my Rival Hawke sell Fenris out because she was still mad about him sleeping with her and then leaving her. (Yes, she was that petty). But I just kept post-poning the quest untill it was the last one before Last Straw and then I think I spend 40 minutes on the map screen trying to get my self to press the Hanged Man icon. Then I gave up and just didn't do the quest.
There are just some options that are not interesting to take no matter who you role play.

Haha, I'm the same way about the ME2 suicide mission...I *plan* how I'm going to let specific characters die, but then I never finish the playthrough with that Shepard, because I can't go through with it.  It's just too sad to watch, even if my character doesn't directly cause their deaths.

I personally LOVE my AggressiveHawke, who rivalmances Fenris, but I'm glad I can play her snarky and abrasive without being Evil!Hawke.

And I can see how people can justify killing Anders, or giving Isabela to the Qunari (although I cannot ever do that, no no no), and I accidentally let Merrill's clan attack on my first character because I didn't realize I could prevent it...but I can't ever imagine giving Fenris back to Danarius.  Even on my first playthrough, where I was romancing Anders and fiercely pro-mage and rivaled Fenris super fast, I admired him, and really enjoyed the platonic rivalry relationship.  That was a complete surprise, and refreshing compared to the usual way of disagreeing with a companion.

And just because I haven't shared my Fenris art in here before:

[Dutchess]

I did give him back in one of my more recent playthroughs. Hawke was an aggressive/direct bloodmage, who, in my head, had somehow escaped/reversed the tranquility process that had been done to her (with a mod you can chose the sun symbol on the forehead). She used the help of a demon to protect her from being made tranquil (hence the bloodmagic as well). It did leave her damaged though. She is only focused on her own survival and does everything to accomplish her current goal (so in act 1 she does everything just to make money for the expedition). She slept with Fenris, which, I admit, isn't entirely compatible with the head canon. Giving him back to Danarius was a combination of her own twisted revenge for being left like that after she regained some sense of humanity and affection with someone, and not wanting to risk her life by fighting a Tevinter magister. So, yeah, that was that. I haven't been able to play further with her after I did that, though. xD I quickly created a male mage and romanced Fenris. His playthrough has caught up with hers.

@ motomotogirl: you do actually get the chance to change your mind once you say "you can have him". After your companions have protested against it (except for douchebag Anders) you can pick "perhaps not then". I don't know what Hawke says exactly when you do that, I haven't tried myself. But this could be the sick, mean joke you were referring to.

@ Ranorm: that picture is absolutely gorgeous! Wow, just incredible.I have added it to my favourites!

[Arquen]

Syllogi.. that's you! Gahh... I love your arts. I do!

So many fantastic artists coming out to say "hi" today, LOL. I have my Fenris pic kind of sitting there on my DA right now, but haven't posted it yet because this discussion was taking my enthusiasm away.

Seriously though, syllogi. I thought of getting a commission from you. Your VERY good. That chainmail and textures, and line art, and shading, and DETAILS. I just.. How do you do these things? LOL.

Also, LOL Ghost_Nappa -- I think I heard that theory once. No, my Hawke didn't do it by accident. She turned to blood magic to protect herself once, and she has used it and developed it ever since. Her theory being fight fire with fire and use every advantage you have. Of course, when she hears Fenris's take on it they get into huge arguments, but she still earns his respect because she wants to. As I said she really hasn't ever had anyone challenge her in such a way before. It attracts her attention, and she realizes she comes to rely on him a lot more than she ever planned to. She also isn't my canon. Gwenya is my canon -- snarky/aggro mage who friendmanced Fenris. Yeah, that is the canon I covet, and enjoyed the most.

Also, rivalmance is not about "hate" at all. Rivalry Friendship Fenris may talk about leaving Kirkwall and not being "happy" in Act 3, but he doesn't hate Hawke. He THANKS Hawke for all he/she has done. He apologizes to Hawke for "being difficult," and he challenges Hawke, but also respects him/her. It's a rivalry. As someone who actual has a few rivalry friendships (though didn't use that term until DA, LOL) I know how this goes. You don't agree on hardly anything, but you share common threads, and you respect each other's opinions because they are so different from your own. You think "maybe you see what I cannot."

[GhostlyMaiden]

Arquen wrote...

yeah, the question remains .. Why? Why RP a made-up story like this just for the line crossing and sadism and see how much you can stomach?

I enjoy exploring different psyches, figuring out reasons behind people's actions, trying to see the world from another's eyes. This includes the more distasteful personality traits. I know sociopaths have emotions and can feel paranoia. I said I don't "sense" it from her. I'm unsure if she's overly confident, doesn't care, or is just patient enough to know that she can't achieve her goals over night, but I don't feel any paranoia from her at all. Maybe I'll understand better once I've actually finished a playthrough with her.

I suppose it also makes for a good challenge. The game already imposes several limitations on Hawke, but adding more limitations by including your own personal roleplaying Hawkes? Ooh, it takes a lot of work and reasoning. Several reloads and skims through the DA wiki trying to figure out how to make events go the way that best suits your Hawke. Only an aggressive Hawke can side with Petrice. Okay, now what reasons would this Hawke have to do so? I'm a bit of a workaholic. I spend more hours designing complex Hawkes than I do actually playing this game, I think.

I fully understand that you don't like to play that way. I am only clarifying what I was trying to do with that Hawke. I'm not expecting you to fall in love with her, because Maker knows I hate her the most out of my Hawkes.

This post be lacking Fenris. How about an art request for anybody who feels up to it? I have always wanted to see a side view of the "I'm here, Fenris" touching cheek scene. While Fenris's puppy eyes are adorable, I want to see him actually touching Hawke's cheek as well. Ooh and Hawke's expression. Is s/he blushing? Is s/he all bug-eyed thinking "Oh my god, he's touching me!" Is s/he trying put on a stoic face but you can see the red in her cheeks? I haven't been able to find any picture like that anywhere. 

[Ghost_Nappa]

@Arquen: Cant fault your Hawke for choosing it like that. Also yes on the rivalmance. That is how I see it as well for their relationship being workable:agree to disagree. *sigh* I better get back drawing up my project or Ill absolutely risk skipping work just chat insane love for Fenris.

(although my love for Fenris sorta borders on bro's for life+Cuddlemonster)

[syllogi]

Arquen wrote...

Syllogi.. that's you! Gahh... I love your arts. I do!

So many fantastic artists coming out to say "hi" today, LOL. I have my Fenris pic kind of sitting there on my DA right now, but haven't posted it yet because this discussion was taking my enthusiasm away.

Seriously though, syllogi. I thought of getting a commission from you. Your VERY good. That chainmail and textures, and line art, and shading, and DETAILS. I just.. How do you do these things? LOL.

Also, LOL Ghost_Nappa -- I think I heard that theory once. No, my Hawke didn't do it by accident. She turned to blood magic to protect herself once, and she has used it and developed it ever since. Her theory being fight fire with fire and use every advantage you have. Of course, when she hears Fenris's take on it they get into huge arguments, but she still earns his respect because she wants to. As I said she really hasn't ever had anyone challenge her in such a way before. It attracts her attention, and she realizes she comes to rely on him a lot more than she ever planned to. She also isn't my canon. Gwenya is my canon -- snarky/aggro mage who friendmanced Fenris. Yeah, that is the canon I covet, and enjoyed the most.

Also, rivalmance is not about "hate" at all. Rivalry Friendship Fenris may talk about leaving Kirkwall and not being "happy" in Act 3, but he doesn't hate Hawke. He THANKS Hawke for all he/she has done. He apologizes to Hawke for "being difficult," and he challenges Hawke, but also respects him/her. It's a rivalry. As someone who actual has a few rivalry friendships (though didn't use that term until DA, LOL) I know how this goes. You don't agree on hardly anything, but you share common threads, and you respect each other's opinions because they are so different from your own. You think "maybe you see what I cannot."

Aw, thank you!  I am always nervous about sharing my art outside of deviantArt, but I have to get over it.  As for how I do it...I'm such an amateur at Photoshop, but I'm slowly learning.  I went to school for oil painting, and never had any interest in digital art until I had my kid, and realized that maybe turpenoid and linseed oil aren't the best things to have around babies.  I think I'm finally starting to get decent with a tablet and photoshop, honestly.  I don't feel confident enough to accept commissions (I'm way too slow with requests to accept money for them), but you're welcome to PM me here or on deviantArt with request ideas.  I enjoy drawing for people.  

And I think I have had some rivalry friendships in real life too...I'm generally easy going, and I like having a diverse group of friends, BUT, I'm very opinionated.  So I can hang out with someone I disagree with completely, as long as they respect our differences.  It can be tough sometimes, if the other party doesn't get that.  

With Fenris, his feelings on mages are perfectly reasonable, from his point of view.  And the fact that he will work with apostates at all means that he's not inflexible.  So being able to earn his respect, as a mage or mage supporter, without having him change his own basic views on the subject, was pretty cool.  Other than KOTOR2, where Influence was part of the plot, I don't like completely changing NPCs personalities to fit my player character's whims.

[Dutchess]

^You call that decent? Lol, I don't want to know what you would call something I would try, haha. Seriously, it's beautiful! Really well done, so I would certainly keep going if I were you! You can be proud of yourself. Gah, so many talented people in this thread. It's just scary.

[BBK4114]

So-oo...
I was playing Skyrim today and my character walked past a group of Imperial Soldiers who were talking to each other and I had to do a double take, lol. I thought wtf is Fenris doing in Skyrim! That voice is super recognizable. Looked up the voice actors and sure enough, Gideon Emery is on the list under: Additional Voice Actors. My character just stood and listened to him for a moment or two. 
http://www.uesp.net/...im:Voice_Actors

Modifié par BBK4114, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[tankgirly]

BBK4114 wrote...

So-oo...
I was playing Skyrim today and my character walked past a group of Imperial Soldiers who were talking to each other and I had to do a double take, lol. I thought wtf is Fenris doing in Skyrim! That voice is super recognizable. Looked up the voice actors and sure enough, Gideon Emery is on the list under: Additional Voice Actors. My character just stood and listened to him for a moment or two. 
http://www.uesp.net/...im:Voice_Actors

Yes, Mr. Emery had confirmed he was the imperial soldiers. Well spotting.

[Ranorm]

I came across three of him in Skyrim the other day up on the road to Labyrinthian. Then a dragon came and wiped all three of him out. That dragon had to die.

Though the ultimate mindscrew is during the Dark Brotherhood questline. You come across Gideon Emery talking to Gideon Emery about someone you murdered...also voiced by Gideon Emery.

I think that broke my brain.

[Obsydian]

alright guys. quick question.... cause I'm uninformed. I'm finally getting to the parts of this game that I haven't done yet. If I say I'll help Anders (cause much as he irritates me, I feel bad when he says that he's still alone:() do I get negative points from Fenris (or Sebastian?) I've NEVER completed this part of the game (I know, I know) .... so .. yeah.

[tankgirly]

Obsydian wrote...

alright guys. quick question.... cause I'm uninformed. I'm finally getting to the parts of this game that I haven't done yet. If I say I'll help Anders (cause much as he irritates me, I feel bad when he says that he's still alone:() do I get negative points from Fenris (or Sebastian?) I've NEVER completed this part of the game (I know, I know) .... so .. yeah.

If you don't want to increase his rivary scale, leave Fenris behind whenever you are doing Anders' quest. It's what I ended up had to do.



by ivory-dusk

[Obsydian]

im at the "he blows up the Chantry" part of it. which seems like the sort of place that I might not want to have Fenris anyway.....