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[CuriousArtemis]

renjility wrote...

Yeah, I honestly don't understand this reaction. Sure, he doesn't like Fenris, may hate him even, but this is so out of proportion. And even if Anders wouldn't mind handing Fenris over, what about Justice? Surely letting a slaver take his escaped slave back is not justice, or is Justice about the rights of customers now? Danarius gets his rightfully owned property back? That's justice?

AGREEEEEEEEEEE; it is so full of s-h-i-t that Anders reacts that way.  It's like they just wanted to flippantly allow someone to get friendship points out of this without regard to character.  Anders doesn't like Fenris, but that doesn't mean he would be willing to SELL HIM INTO SLAVERY.  I honestly have to just ignore this when I romance Anders because if you don't, he becomes a truly despicable and disgusting human being ... and he just isn't.  Nothing else in his character points to him being that sort of person.

I think what with Anders, Aveline's (lack of) reaction, the paltry sum you get, and the complete lack of consequence ... we can all agree this was one of the game's lowest and least thought out points.

Bad on you, BioWare!!! 

[Harle Cerulean]

The only thing I've been able to come up with is that Anders and Justice are, at that point, so monofocused on the mage cause that because Fenris isn't a supporter, they don't care what happens to him. Possibly even going so far as to think, "Well, he thinks mages should be slaves, so him being slave to a mage is justice."

Otherwise, yeah, it doesn't make sense with Anders' stated principles, that every man, woman, and child in Thedas deserves freedom.

[Dutchess]

Well, fortunately it's much more satisfying to have Fenris rip Danarius heart out.



by Armesan

[aldien]

renjility wrote...

 Anders: "I thought I was the only one thinking that.":happy:

If I may ask, what does Hawke say prior to Anders saying: I thought I was the only one thinking that

[dangereusegirl]

Essentially something like 'Here, take him'

There's a youtube video of it, if you're truly interested in watching it. I never could, since it is a horrible move on Hawke's part.

[kemz19691]

Arquen wrote...

Personally I disagree with practically everything Kemz says. I am actually finding myself agreeing with practically everything Harle has said, AND I am constantly intrigued by how people can see such vastly different things from the same story and character.
......
No, slavery is handled as slavery should be. It isn't taken lightly, it isn't glossed over, and in all cases it is regarded as a morally wrong choice and a BAD thing. Which is exactly how it should be.

Well, I agree with you that slavery is handled as it should bein DA2, however, not everyone in this forum owns or has played DA:O, so they cannot make the comparisons that you do.  

(I own the game - bought DA:O and DA2 same time, but lost interest to play DA2 - IMO the graphics/output of DA2 are more refined and my protagonist has a REAL voice). 

I think Bioware developers present slavery in very compelling ways.  My understanding of slavery in Thedas (historically and currently) is gleaned from Fenris' personal story, Kirkwall's history, the Bone Pit, codices and dialogue.  The spiritual and psychological affects of slavery hit home for me during the cutscene when Fenris first arrives at the Gallows and comments on the slave statues.  I thought I saw Fenris trembling as he explained how effective those statues were on the psyche of slaves in Tevinter.  That gaming experience gives me a great appreciation of the developers' treatment of this issue.

BTW:  People see things differently because we have diverse experiences.  This makes the forum rather interesting and sometimes exciting.  I respect the difference and enjoy reading another gamer's opinion.  Also, I'm not looking to align my views.

[Harle Cerulean]

Hawke says: "If you want him, you can have him."

Or was it "If you want him, he's yours.? I'm in class, can't check the exact wording. XD One of those, though.

[kemz19691]

dangereusegirl wrote...
Samia, my rogue, would probably be the one with kids. They'd be unplanned, seeing as how she wouldn't be thinking about birth control, and Fenris would probably feel compelled to marry her so that she wouldn't have to live with the shame (in his opinion) of being the mother of an elf's bastard children.

That kinda made me laugh :happy: but then it raised (in my mind) another issue we really haven't discussed here: the Feynriel[/b] Child, which is the mixed-race offspring of man and elf.

My impression from the game is, these children/adults have an extremely difficult time in Thedas.  They are not accepted by Elvhen nor Men.  Although Fenris doesn't embrace his culture/kind (implied from some of David Gaider's posts), I don't think he would want to bring a Feynriel child into this world.  Given the perception of elves and treatment (e.g., alienages), I think the child/ren would probably wish to identify as human. Now, Feynriel was raised by an elf mother and in the alienage, so this may not be a good comparison.  If Hawke and Fenris had children (and assuming Hawke survives childbirth), the children would probably be raised human. It seems that Thedas makes you choose - "either or". 

[kemz19691]

dangereusegirl wrote...

Something did just occur to me. If you do not recruit Fenris, or he leaves after being attacked by Hadriana's people in Act 2, do you think he actually manages to solve his own problems? Does he take care of Danarius and Hadriana? Or is Hawke the defining factor in his survivability?

If you never recruit Fenris - or if you abandon him before Hadriana, I suspect he would probaby get recaptured. They ramp up efforts to snare him in Act 2 and if you don't immediately go after Hadriana, Fenris gets waylaid in Kirkwall.

[kemz19691]

renjility wrote...

I think Hawke is essential for killing Hadriana and Danarius. Fenris says as much in rivalry when you choose the option that leads to handing him over to Danarius: "I can't fight him without you," he pleas. Without Hawke's help, Fenris has no hope of defeating a powerful Tevinter magister. Hadriana would most likely already have succeeded in capturing Fenris if he had gone to the caverns by himself.

So yes, I believe Hawke is the defining factor in Fenris' survivability. That's why Fenris feels he owes Hawke.

So then, how does Fenris distinguish his obligations from his affections? Are they one in the same? Does he feel affection for Hawke because she/he helps him defeat the magisters? I suspect as much - becuase if Hawke refuses to go immediately to hunt Hadriana (this is after they are waylaid in Kirkwall) Fenris abandon their intimate and companion relationship and what ever friendship they were building towards intimacy.  Their relationship ends abruptly if you do not IMMEDIATELY go to the slave cave.

No one here can dispute what happens if you don't go after Fenris is waylaid in town.  This is why I ask: "Are you sure Fenris loves Hawke?"  Hawke has no more of an obligation to fight Hadriana than she/he has to help Anders blow up the Chantry.  The fact that Hawke seems duty-bound to help Fenris always bothered me.  So, I would ask: does he care for her only because she can help him?

Modifié par kemz19691, 29 février 2012 - 08:52 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

At that point, who can fault Fenris? Hawke is outright refusing, after two attacks, to address a serious and immediate threat to Fenris' health and freedom.

[kemz19691]

aldien wrote...

Of all the things in the game that tried to portray how bad slavery was and why it's wrong, THIS should have been the one thing that really drove the point home. But it wasn't. Here have him Danarius. Thank you. Okay, now I am a really evil character. Yay me. It just gets to me that you can actually participate in slave trading! Ah! It's a bad example to set.

Maybe instead of losing your companions you lose the respect of the city. Something more than getting 3 sovereigns, -10 popularity with companions, and a note from Danarius telling you he is now going to wipe Fenris's memory. Uggggg.... even after reading some very good arguments I still can't be convinced it was handled properly. I'll just agree to disagree.

To play the game, you have to choose a career in crime, either as a smuggler (which may mean you will need to recover slaves) or as an assassin. Hawke really isn't a good person, so it wouldn't be beneath her/him to do such a thing?

[kemz19691]

renjility wrote...

Yeah, I honestly don't understand this reaction. Sure, he doesn't like Fenris, may hate him even, but this is so out of proportion. And even if Anders wouldn't mind handing Fenris over, what about Justice? Surely letting a slaver take his escaped slave back is not justice, or is Justice about the rights of customers now? Danarius gets his rightfully owned property back? That's justice?

Maybe Anders sees Fenris as another threat to Mages - along with the Templars. He's not beyond blowing up the Chantry and killing innocents-  I don't see returning Fenris to his master out of character.

[kemz19691]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

At that point, who can fault Fenris? Hawke is outright refusing, after two attacks, to address a serious and immediate threat to Fenris' health and freedom.

Why must Hawke do everything Fenris says? Remember Hawke's line re: taking Orana as a slave?

[AbsoluteApril]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

I had no idea this would happen, thank you!

I know on my 2nd PT when Hawke ignored Fenris for most of the game and his 'friend/rival' stayed in the middle, never got his personal quest about the sister.I seem to remember he mentions something in act 3... something about still being hunted by Danarius? But he sticks around through the game and then turned on me Hawke at the end cause she was a crazy Anders loving blood mage. Can't fault him for that.

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 29 février 2012 - 09:01 .

[kemz19691]

renjility wrote...

Well, fortunately it's much more satisfying to have Fenris rip Danarius heart out.



by Armesan

Why don't we ever get to see Fenris ripping the hearts out? We see a lot of bloddy fighting - but never get to see this

[CuriousArtemis]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

But he sticks around through the game and then turned on me Hawke at the end cause she was a crazy Anders loving blood mage. Can't fault him for that.

And for that he paid with his life  BAWWWW  It's why I never even bother to do "Bait and Switch" when romancing Anders; I absolutely positively without a shadow of a doubt could not live with myself if I had to kill Fenris *sobbu*

[kemz19691]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...
Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

I had no idea this would happen, thank you!

I know on my 2nd PT when Hawke ignored Fenris for most of the game and his 'friend/rival' stayed in the middle, never got his personal quest about the sister.I seem to remember he mentions something in act 3... something about still being hunted by Danarius? But he sticks around through the game and then turned on me Hawke at the end cause she was a crazy Anders loving blood mage. Can't fault him for that.

Really??? So when you left Kirkwall, you never got waylaid by slavers/magister? The Bitter Pill Quest didn't trigger?? Wow. I've PT'd 4 times and each time I get this and the first PT I was living with Anders.

[Meeszy Alexy]

kemz19691 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

At that point, who can fault Fenris? Hawke is outright refusing, after two attacks, to address a serious and immediate threat to Fenris' health and freedom.

Why must Hawke do everything Fenris says? Remember Hawke's line re: taking Orana as a slave?

Well, considering the situation, Hawke is involved as Fenris is part of the group and these people are attacking him, and because he's in the group, the slavers are attacking Hawke and co as well. If Hawke doesn't care to at least help a comrade in need, then Fenris leaves to deal with Hadriana and Danarius himself. It doesn't just end the relationship, it permanently removes him from the party.

[Dutchess]

kemz19691 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Actually, the relationship doesn't end if you don't immediately go. You get rivalry if you don't immediately go. The relationship ends if, after a second group attacks, within Kirkwall itself, you still refuse to address the issue.

At that point, who can fault Fenris? Hawke is outright refusing, after two attacks, to address a serious and immediate threat to Fenris' health and freedom.

Why must Hawke do everything Fenris says? Remember Hawke's line re: taking Orana as a slave?

Hawke doesn't have to do everything Fenris says. Fenris also stays in Kirkwall because he believes/hopes Hawke can help him. Is that selfish of him? Perhaps, but I don't blame him for not only staying because Hawke has such a nice smile. His priority is staying free. And when Hawke chooses not to support him any further, he chooses for himself, because he doesn't want to be hunted anymore. Why would Fenris stay any longer if Hawke shows so little respect or care for him? Hawke's actions would be more proof of Hawke not truly loving Fenris than the other way around.

[kemz19691]

motomotogirl wrote...

AbsoluteApril wrote...

But he sticks around through the game and then turned on me Hawke at the end cause she was a crazy Anders loving blood mage. Can't fault him for that.

And for that he paid with his life  BAWWWW  It's why I never even bother to do "Bait and Switch" when romancing Anders; I absolutely positively without a shadow of a doubt could not live with myself if I had to kill Fenris *sobbu*

What bothers me about this is - his body just remains there on the ground. He was a companion for goodnessakes! No respect is show to Fenris. That rather upset me to see his dead body lying there among the fallen - and no one mentions honoring him. Even if he turns, he was still a companion. Family, friends and Templars will claim the other bodies - but who will claim Fenris?  I don't want to think that they would just dump his body in the sewer or at the waste site.  That's my #4 beef with Bioware developers.

Modifié par kemz19691, 29 février 2012 - 09:08 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I wish we could give Denarius Merrill instead, hey an elf is an elf and, she might even make a good apprentice, if a bit dull witted at first.

[AbsoluteApril]

motomotogirl wrote...

AbsoluteApril wrote...

But he sticks around through the game and then turned on me Hawke at the end cause she was a crazy Anders loving blood mage. Can't fault him for that.

And for that he paid with his life  BAWWWW  It's why I never even bother to do "Bait and Switch" when romancing Anders; I absolutely positively without a shadow of a doubt could not live with myself if I had to kill Fenris *sobbu*

yup, it sucked. But she basically ignored him the entire time anyways so to her, wasn't that big of a deal (I did say she was crazy right?)

kemz19691 wrote...
Really??? So when you left Kirkwall, you never got waylaid by slavers/magister? The Bitter Pill Quest didn't trigger?? Wow. I've PT'd 4 times and each time I get this and the first PT I was living with Anders.

yup exactly, it never trgged his quest, never got attacked. The approval was right in the middle,  she had Fenris in her party maybe twice the entire game? Not sure if the approval is what caused it never to trigger or the fact he was never around/she never talked to him.

[kemz19691]

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

I wish we could give Denarius Merrill instead, hey an elf is an elf and, she might even make a good apprentice, if a bit dull witted at first.

Fenris shouldn't be turned over to Danarius.  However, it's Fenris who makes the choice to go:

Danarius: "So what will it be, Fenris? Will you throw your life away?"
Fenris: "No. I will go with you."

Fenris could have fought for his life - he would have died, but he would have died to maintain his freedom. Instead, he left willingly. So, he's willing to die for the Templar cause but not for the personal cause of freedom?

[kemz19691]

I have a probing question: What the hell are those pockets for on Fenris' belt? Wonder what he carries in those. Sebastian has the same pockets - but Sebastian has stuff he can carry in those - like tomes, or prayers, or amulets or something. Wonder what Fenris carries in his?