55380 réponses à ce sujet

[gingergen]

Dear Maker, I vanish for a week and the thread explodes!

renjility wrote...

^There is actually one case where Fenris does not appreciates Hawke's sarcastic comment: when he tells you about his sister. He gets pretty pissed then. "Yes, yes. Laugh at me!" Not that you can blame him. It is a bit insensitive to joke about something he is so anxious about.

 Still trying to catch up, but I wanted to say about the above -- I didn't interpret it that he was angry about that comment, just impatient. Like it was shorthand for "Seriously Hawke, there's a time and a place. Keep your snark for your own time." Not angry, just annoyed. I'm friendmancing, though -- I don't know if that makes a difference. Maybe there are multiple line readings depending on the relationship type?

[coldwetn0se]

gingergen wrote...

Dear Maker, I vanish for a week and the thread explodes!

renjility wrote...

^There is actually one case where Fenris does not appreciates Hawke's sarcastic comment: when he tells you about his sister. He gets pretty pissed then. "Yes, yes. Laugh at me!" Not that you can blame him. It is a bit insensitive to joke about something he is so anxious about.

 Still trying to catch up, but I wanted to say about the above -- I didn't interpret it that he was angry about that comment, just impatient. Like it was shorthand for "Seriously Hawke, there's a time and a place. Keep your snark for your own time." Not angry, just annoyed. I'm friendmancing, though -- I don't know if that makes a difference. Maybe there are multiple line readings depending on the relationship type?

Actually, I'm in agreement with you.  Impatient would be the best description, and I have done that with a rivalmance and friendmance (and a non-romance, for that matter).  It sounds the same to me every time.

[gingergen]

coldwetn0se wrote...

Actually, I'm in agreement with you.  Impatient would be the best description, and I have done that with a rivalmance and friendmance (and a non-romance, for that matter).  It sounds the same to me every time.

Interesting to know it sounds the same no matter what. I'm not surprised though, because that means they need fewer sound files.

aldien  and  renjility  -- help, I don't have any good pics for top of page! You ladies always have fantastic stuff.

[Dutchess]

coldwetn0se wrote...

gingergen wrote...

Dear Maker, I vanish for a week and the thread explodes!

 Still trying to catch up, but I wanted to say about the above -- I didn't interpret it that he was angry about that comment, just impatient. Like it was shorthand for "Seriously Hawke, there's a time and a place. Keep your snark for your own time." Not angry, just annoyed. I'm friendmancing, though -- I don't know if that makes a difference. Maybe there are multiple line readings depending on the relationship type?

Actually, I'm in agreement with you.  Impatient would be the best description, and I have done that with a rivalmance and friendmance (and a non-romance, for that matter).  It sounds the same to me every time.

I didn't really hear impatience there, but definitely annoyance. 

@ aldien: I did not know you could torture Gascard either. I usually go to him to track Mother down. Last time he turned on me and I had to kill him.<_<


Okay, 6 hours later, but here the pics come. I can't stay behind now that aldien has spammed so many.


by Geirahod. 
Don't think I posted this one yet. His manboobs are kinda weird in this one, but otherwise hot.


by iPoppet


by yatenkou

[Sylvan_Moon]

Just curious, how many of you guys actually let Fen kill his sister in your canon playthrough?

When I first rivalmanced him, I was totally set on letting him free his sister just for the rivalry points. (Didn't know the whole story.) Then along came the actual quest and I found out she betrayed him. Was totally okay with handing him back to Danarius.

So I got pissed with her and made Hawke stand back and wash her hands off the whole thing. Fen could do whatever he wanted. So he kills her. It was so sad to hear him say that he would've done anything for her and then she goes and betrays him.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvan_Moon wrote...

Just curious, how many of you guys actually let Fen kill his sister in your canon playthrough?

When I first rivalmanced him, I was totally set on letting him free his sister just for the rivalry points. (Didn't know the whole story.) Then along came the actual quest and I found out she betrayed him. Was totally okay with handing him back to Danarius.

So I got pissed with her and made Hawke stand back and wash her hands off the whole thing. Fen could do whatever he wanted. So he kills her. It was so sad to hear him say that he would've done anything for her and then she goes and betrays him.

I can't believe this thread is almost 2000 pages long now... wow.

At any rate, I've never let Fenris kill her and I stop him with various replies in different plays. My most recent one being where I did NOT bring Anders to the Deep Roads and let poor Carver get the Blight, after which I helped him suicide. The option I chose ended up with Hawke saying something like "I killed my own brother, I know what I'm talking about." Then Varric steps in because I usually also bring him along with me for Alone, since he has had his own sibling issues. -- As an aside, I've stopped bringing Anders with me on this quest, even for healing, because hearing him call Fenris a hypocrite makes me want to punch him for his lack of tact.

My logic behind it is this: I know that right at that moment Fenris is experiencing several emotions: shock, disappointment, betrayal, anger, and pain. That is not the time to make such a rash choice. It is the one thing that he will never be able to take back. Once he makes the impulsive decision to kill her, it's done, and no amount of regret later will bring her back. What kind of friend (or girlfriend) would I be if I let him do that to himself? That is why I don't let him kill her. I really wish I had the dialogue option to tell him all of this .

Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 mars 2012 - 11:52 .

[Sylvan_Moon]

^ It just goes to show that I'm as impulsive as Fenris. *sigh* I actually thought about it after doing the quest and reloaded, let his sister live. However, she doesn't even apologize and tells Fenris he willingly took the lyrium into himself for both her and their mother. She knew how much he had sacrificed for them and was still willing to betray him.

Side Note: Yeah I'm trying to do my bit by keeping up the discussions until we reach 2000. I look forward to the day that we can beat the Anders thread. Lol. Yeah I'm petty like that. But I actually do enjoy talking about Fenris.

Modifié par Sylvan_Moon, 30 mars 2012 - 12:08 .

[Dutchess]

I think the problem with Varania is that she in fact doesn't realizes how much Fenris has been through and what he has sacrificed for the freedom of her and their mother. Add to that she sees freedom as no boon at all, and she has no reason to be grateful. Whether she is right in this is another matter, this is just how she perceives it. And after she got her freedom, she has never heard from Leto since. You could say Leto, her brother, is dead already. Fenris will in many ways be different from the young man he used to be. That again may add to her feeling that she doesn't owe Fenris loyalty or even gratitude.

And then you have Danarius, a powerful magister, who asks a meaningless elven servant to help him. He promises her to make her his apprentice, and thus a better life (she is no slave, no, but clearly she saw her life as very hard. Again, her perception). Is there even the option to say no to such a man? If she didn't volunteer, he could threaten her, or even use blood magic on her to force her to cooperate. Should she risk her life for a man she doesn't know anymore, who forced freedom upon her, which she sees as wrong?

Betraying Fenris this way was a nasty thing to do, but it certainly isn't a choice made out of pure evilness.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvan_Moon wrote...

^ It just goes to show that I'm as impulsive as Fenris. *sigh* I actually thought about it after doing the quest and reloaded, let his sister live. However, she doesn't even apologize and tells Fenris he willingly took the lyrium into himself for both her and their mother. She knew how much he had sacrificed for them and was still willing to betray him.

Side Note: Yeah I'm trying to do my bit by keeping up the discussions until we reach 2000. I look forward to the day that we can beat the Anders thread. Lol. Yeah I'm petty like that. But I actually do enjoy talking about Fenris.

Well that goes to her last statement "I look on you now and I think you received the better end of the bargain." Everything is relative. She is looking at Fenris and sees him as a free man, a strong warrior, with caring friends, who is not beholden to anyone. Such is not the case with her. She will (I assume) return to the oppressive Tevinter Imperium and go back to either being a tailor, or attempt to get herself another apprenticeship with a magister. That is not really a bright future when you think about it, especially when you consider that only a small number of magisters achieve the status that Danarius had. Sure, she didn't want to die, but I don't imagine her life will be sunshine and roses either, nor has it been.

As far as the information goes, I always looked at that in a positive way because it supplied useful information that Fenris didn't have about himself. The unfortunate thing is that part of his identity was built up around the idea that he "never wanted" those "filthy markings," and finding out that he fought in a tournament to receive them was quite a blow. Basically almost everything he thought he knew about himself turned out to be wrong.

The one lasting gripe I have amount the whole Fenris thing is that we never find out just how much, if anything, else he remembers. Not only in the intervening years since that first night, but even after Danarius's death. Fenris only thinks that the agony of the marking ritual wiped out his memories, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Danarius could have done it himself (blood magic can be used to manipulate minds) in order to create the prefect slave. If you have a slave who has no identity, not only will they believe anything you tell them about themselves, but they will not strive to be free based on prior knowledge of freedom. Fenris even suggests as much when speaking of the fog warriors, saying that he didn't really have a desire to be free until that point because he didn't know what freedom was.

[Sylvan_Moon]

renjility wrote...

I think the problem with Varania is
that she in fact doesn't realizes how much Fenris has been through and
what he has sacrificed for the freedom of her and their mother. Add to
that she sees freedom as no boon at all, and she has no reason to be
grateful. Whether she is right in this is another matter, this is just
how she perceives it. And after she got her freedom, she has never heard
from Leto since. You could say Leto, her brother, is dead already.
Fenris will in many ways be different from the young man he used to be.
That again may add to her feeling that she doesn't owe Fenris loyalty or
even gratitude.

And then you have Danarius, a powerful
magister, who asks a meaningless elven servant to help him. He promises
her to make her his apprentice, and thus a better life (she is no slave,
no, but clearly she saw her life as very hard. Again, her perception).
Is there even the option to say no to such a man? If she didn't
volunteer, he could threaten her, or even use blood magic on her to
force her to cooperate. Should she risk her life for a man she doesn't
know anymore, who forced freedom upon her, which she sees as wrong?

Betraying Fenris this way was a nasty thing to do, but it certainly isn't a choice made out of pure evilness.

She never heard from Fenris because he lost his memories. He only remembered he had a sister when Hadriana mentioned it. So that can't be blamed entirely on him.

Also, it was not mentioned that she did not agree to the idea of Fenris taking the lyrium to secure her and their mother's freedom. It sounds like you're assuming Fenris made the decision alone without letting his sister or their mother know, which I doubt. For all we know, Varania might have wanted freedom but when she actually got it, found out that it was not to her liking.

About Danarius threatening her if she did not betray Fenris. I admit it's possible, but what gets me is that the actual reason she gives is that Danarius wants to make her his apprentice. She doesn't say he tortured her or forced her to do it. She says she has no choice because she thinks becoming Danarius' apprentice is the only way for her to have a better life.

Modifié par Sylvan_Moon, 30 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Sylvan_Moon]

The one lasting gripe I have amount the whole Fenris thing is that we
never find out just how much, if anything, else he remembers. Not only
in the intervening years since that first night, but even after
Danarius's death. Fenris only thinks
that the agony of the marking ritual wiped out his memories, but that
doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Danarius could have done it
himself (blood magic can be used to manipulate minds) in order to create
the prefect slave. If you have a slave who has no identity, not only
will they believe anything you tell them about themselves, but they will
not strive to be free based on prior knowledge of freedom. Fenris even
suggests as much when speaking of the fog warriors, saying that he
didn't really have a desire to be free until that point because he
didn't know what freedom was.

Makes me want to kill Danarius all over again. Yes, I do wish we had more insight to Fenris' past so we can better understand him. I like to think meeting Hawke makes him value his freedom even more.

[Dutchess]

Yes, she hasn't heard from Fenris because he did not even know he had a sister. But she might very well not know he has lost his memories either. She is a servant, a tailor working for another magister, in another city. She probably doesn't know anything about Fenris and what he has been going through. I am certainly not saying it is Fenris' own fault. I am just trying to figure Varania and her reasoning out. And she could be thinking this way, because she clearly doesn't know everything.

Also, it was not mentioned that she did not agree to the idea of Fenris taking the lyrium to secure her and their mother's freedom. It sounds like you're assuming Fenris made the decision alone without letting his sister or their mother know, which I doubt. For all we know, Varania might have wanted freedom but when she actually got it, found out that it was not to her liking.

True, we don't know the details about Fenris competing and freeing his family. The way she says that Fenris competed for the markings and used the boon to have her and her mother freed, kinda gave me the impression it was mostly Fenris' idea, but I admit that is mostly my own interpretation with no cold hard evidence to support it. It is also possible Varania and/or her mother encouraged Fenris to participate, and that then reality kicked in and they were just two poor city elves. It is then still possible for Varania to blame this on her brother, even when it is unfair and irrational. It is always easier to blame others for your misery. Happens all the time.

About Danarius threatening her if she did not betray Fenris. I admit it's possible, but what gets me is that the actual reason she gives is that Danarius wants to make her his apprentice. She doesn't say he tortured her or forced her to do it. She says she has no choice because she thinks becoming Danarius' apprentice is the only way for her to have a better life.

She doesn't say she has no choice because otherwise she will never have a better life. The "no choice" remains a bit more ambiguous. If Danarius did not immediately torture her, doesn't mean he won't do it if she refuses to help him. If the options are being forced after torture or by blood magic, or cooperate and become a magister's apprentice... I could see why she gave in when just the offer was given. Selfish? Oh yes. Understandable? I think so.

Varania is another nice case of grey morality. There is no easy good/bad in this situation.

[nightscrawl]

renjility wrote...

Varania is another nice case of grey morality. There is no easy good/bad in this situation.

This is why my other choice for the dialogue is when Hawke says "she was as much a victim as you were," because it's very accurate.


On a somewhat lighter note, I was replaying Mark of the Assassin recently with Varric and Fenris. When I got to the scene where Tallis is trying to convince me to come help her where you make the tunnel left/right choice, speaking of the Qun, she asks if you if you've ever been a part of something greater than yourself and I had this whole (more involved) RP thing in my head of telling her that's how it is to be in a family (and I expanded more on this), and all of my family is now dead... but *look over at Varric and Fenris* I have a new family now, so yes I understood where she was coming from. I would have loved to see Fenris's reaction to that.

[Sylvan_Moon]

It is then still possible for Varania to blame this on her brother, even when it is unfair and irrational.

Which is what I find sad and makes me not feel sorry for her at all, despite somewhat understanding her situation, leading my Hawke not to care what Fenris does with her. I mean, from my Hawke's perspective, she loves the guy and seeing someone he was willing to sacrifice so much for betray him immediately placed Varania in her blacklist, no matter her reasoning. If she cares so little for Fenris, then she doesn't deserve him as a brother. She wasn't going to actually speak up and tell Fenris to kill his sister for that, though, but she sure wasn't going to defend her either.

I don't claim it's the right choice, but from a roleplaying perspective, that's what my Hawke did. She also let varric kill Bartrand. She just doesn't take kindly to betrayal.

Varania is another nice case of grey morality. There is no easy good/bad in this situation.

I agree. I hope we get more choices like this in DA 3 but ones that actually make a difference.

[aldien]

I let Fenris kill her once when I first played the game. The reaction after he does so led me to believe he regrets it. He looks down at her body and says: now this. It's just another regret piled on a huge stack. His voice was also heartbreaking.

Varania had the opportunity to become part of his life, and the what I call big Hawke family. I honestly believe Fenris would have made her comfortable and loved her immensely. He just wanted family damn it!!! It's also the other reason I think Fenris would want children. He wants a family damn it! Whereas, I could never see Anders wanting children. He's too selfish damn it!

The other play throughs I never let him kill his sister because as was said up there...he is too emotional to make an accurate decision. More than that, Fenris has given in to hate his entire life, or what he knows of it. I wanted him to be the better person in the scenario, because honestly, I think that would demonstrate what type of man he has become, but also, it would make Varania feel even worse about herself, which is kind of sweet justice. (not the Ander's type.)

My 2 cents.

Ghost! I didn't even receive an alert from FF net that you had messaged me I happened to notice it today. Stupid thing! We need a new way to message. And I think people are receiving my messages very late or not at all or ignoring me Okay personal life over

Modifié par aldien, 30 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[aldien]

I've never let Danarius take Fenris, but I have been told he has a rather significant sashay. This conversation reminded me of this:



by Ddriana

Modifié par aldien, 30 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Kavatica]

aldien wrote...

I let Fenris kill her once when I first played the game. The reaction after he does so led me to believe he regrets it. He looks down at her body and says: now this. It's just another regret piled on a huge stack. His voice was also heartbreaking.

Same. I let him kill her the first time around  (just stayed neutral and left it up to him) and then he was so sad. So I never did that again. I think his (perceived) regret over killing her is worse than his anger over her betrayal.

Modifié par Kavatica, 30 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[coldwetn0se]

I let him kill her in my very first run (really "green"), but it left such a bad taste in my mouth, that on my subsequent 8 run throughs I didn't let him kill her. I think it is more important for him to have a tie to his family (even if nothing more ever comes out of it), to get the extra bit of info from her that she reveals if not killed (yes, I know, that is technically meta-gamey, but still.....), and knowing how my Hawkes feel about the losses of their own family members. And the most important bit are my Hawkes' concern for Fenris' well-being; things like guilt, pain, depression that someone could experience, potentially, from an action such as that. I never regret stopping him from killing her.

Plus; I too always have Varric with me (and usually leave Anders as well). Just the fact that he says, "Look, Elf...Fenris. Don't......" Varric calling him by his first name always gets to me.....such a sap!

Slightly off topic, but it's funny.....by the third Act, I usually stop bringing Anders along for anything. Since I don't really use him as a healer anyway (more DPS....pretty much DPS for everyone...booya!), and by the third act, even if I am rping a mage supporter (which I usually do), my Hawkes have grown distrustful of him. The only two times I really use him, is during the High Dragon fight, and MoTA (always do this in Act 3)....I like the Fenris/Anders banter in MoTA, and Anders doesn't get dialogue priority over Fenris, at least in my experience.

And just because I haven't said it lately.....come on BW, change your mind......make the expansion...do it!

[aldien]

My second question that I've always wanted to ask:

Do you think Fenris asked Hawke for forgiveness because he was afraid he would end up alone?

[Ghost_Nappa]

Don't worry Aldy we'll work it out...also swammped with 3 projects due this monday and wednesday so cant add my 2cents...however Im one of those people that let varania leave...cause I would sooo see myself in her situation.
Not saying I be a rude prat but honestly in the DA verse I be just an innocent bystander 4 steps away from being dragon fast food or fighting by being the **** everyone hates just to survive..

[CuriousArtemis]

Arthritis fingers, so can't say much (typing/dissertating/grading)

Sylvan_Moon wrote...

Just curious, how many of you guys actually let Fen kill his sister in your canon playthrough?

I never let him kill her.  My Hawke's are very family-oriented but also concerned about what this would do to Fenris' psyche.

renjility wrote...

I think the problem with Varania is that she in fact doesn't realizes how much Fenris has been through and what he has sacrificed for the freedom of her and their mother. 

 

Nightscrawl said everything I wanted to say to this.  [But you have good points, too, of course] 

aldien wrote...

My second question that I've always wanted to ask:

Do you think Fenris asked Hawke for forgiveness because he was afraid he would end up alone?

 

He apologizes because he feels guilty and he realizes finally how important Hawke is to him and how much this is hanging over him (Fenris).  

I think he knows at this point (or should know) that Hawke won't leave him.  After all, s/he has been faithful to him for these three long years.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 30 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[Dutchess]

aldien wrote...

My second question that I've always wanted to ask:

Do you think Fenris asked Hawke for forgiveness because he was afraid he would end up alone?

When you put it like that, no. I don't think Fenris finally took that step because he thought "Oh Maker, no! I'm going to get old all by myself!" Instead, I think he realizes he doesn't need to be alone, that it is okay to open up to someone else and share your life with that person. He asks Hawke for forgiveness because he has nothing to lose at that point. He admits his feelings to himself and stops fighting it. He finally gives in. I suppose he does feel lonely, but that is not his reason to want to be with Hawke. 

[aldien]

Let me expand. I was trying to avoid wordy, but because this question is the one that is the most important to me I feel I need to add more.

For the first several play throughs of the game, I didn't give much thought to the comments Fenris says during the makeup scene. But... after awhile something started to bug me. In the Hanged Man, before you tell him you are there for him he says: I am alone. So, you tell him you have me.

He says later during the makeup scene, summarized: I don't have enemy, my sister is gone (if you let her live) and I quote: I have nothing.

So, Hawke comes after sister, Danarius and nothing. Once Hawke convinces him he has future then he goes into the comments concerning, we never discussed three years ago. It put doubt in my mind. Is Hawke the last resort because, at times, it feels like that.

I agree with Moto, he is a family man, whether he has the children with F Hawke or adopts with M Hawke. He wants a family imo. But... the dialogue in the game, the way it is delivered sounds like Hawke is coming second in some ways.

Saying he finally gives in is kind of like saying he gives up, Ren, imo.

[Kavatica]

aldien wrote...

Let me expand. I was trying to avoid wordy, but because this question is the one that is the most important to me I feel I need to add more.

For the first several play throughs of the game, I didn't give much thought to the comments Fenris says during the makeup scene. But... after awhile something started to bug me. In the Hanged Man, before you tell him you are there for him he says: I am alone. So, you tell him you have me.

He says later during the makeup scene, summarized: I don't have enemy, my sister is gone (if you let her live) and I quote: I have nothing.

So, Hawke comes after sister, Danarius and nothing. Once Hawke convinces him he has future then he goes into the comments concerning, we never discussed three years ago. It put doubt in my mind. Is Hawke the last resort because, at times, it feels like that.

I agree with Moto, he is a family man, whether he has the children with F Hawke or adopts with M Hawke. He wants a family imo. But... the dialogue in the game, the way it is delivered sounds like Hawke is coming second in some ways.

Saying he finally gives in is kind of like saying he gives up, Ren, imo.

I think you are pretty much right about that. Hawke is really cursed in this game. I think Hawke comes in second no matter who his/her LI is. Each companion has so much baggage that they are dealing with, and things that take priority over their relationship with Hawke, at least until the very end. I think the only companion who really cares about Hawke for Hawke is Varric. And we all know there's no romance there.

[Ghost_Nappa]

Sorry I had to put this up after reading the Jezebel March madness Sex vs Chocolate brackets....and came across this!

Your welcome.