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[Dwarva]

I know you didn't ask me but personally I assume that Fenris had never had consensual sex before he met Hawke. Given some of Danarius' comments if you're romancing Fenris, it's pretty clear he was abused while a slave. But I always assumed that, in terms of 'making love', Fenris was a virgin...

[Dutchess]

I believe he did not have sex voluntarily... in the sense that he picked someone and said "let's have sex". I do think Danarius used him in that way. The way he says "the lad is rather skilled, isn't he?" has a pretty strong suggestiveness to it, something that is increased even more by Fenris' vehement reaction "shut your mouth, Danarius!".
It is understandable Fenris prefers not to reveal this part of his past, because it definitely is a very humiliating thing for him.

So virgin in the love making, yes. Virgin in sex, no.

Edit: ah, Staarbux said the same.

This time I am almost ToP.


Prince-in-Disguise 


caiterhe 

Modifié par renjility, 25 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[aldien]

berelinde wrote...

Another point is that Fenris is relating his own experience. Which makes sense, really, since it's the only one he has, but he is not an unbiased or well-informed observer. He does not remember his own past in its entirety, nor has he been exposed to how the "other half" lives, e.g. free-born commoners.

Even in cultures where slavery is legal, not every free-born person owns slaves. Most are probably artisans, commodity traders (flour, iron, what have you), farmers, soldiers, sailors, etc. and go about their lives much as they would if they lived in Ferelden. That isn't to say that slavery is okay because a large chunk of the population isn't involved in it, nor does it demonstrate that magister rule is ideal, but probability says that society as a whole does function. Probably not as well as it would if every person was free, but it might not be the hell-on-earth that Fenris describes.

Excellent point. I forgot that Fenris also mentioned that they did try to abolish slavery in Tevinter. So, obviously not every magister feels the same about it. After Hadrianna and Danarius it is hard to imagine a kinder, more gentler magister. 

Faerunner wrote:

If only. It seems the whole point of elves in this franchise is to
completely subvert the "beautiful, superior, haughty" Tolkien-esque
vision of elves that the Bioware staff clearly hates. I personally like
the idea of humbling and humanizing elves, but Bioware seems to enjoy
punishing them a little too much. Their entire existence seems to be one big "Screw you, Elves!"

There seems to be quite a bit of similarity between Tolkien's backstory for his elves and some of the backstory for Thedas elves. Sinking island, immortality, downfall of the elves, crazy about keeping their immortality, humans being named the quick race and the elves fearing death. Darkspawn, Morgoth the corrupt god creating orcs from elves and on and on. So, BW may not like the beautiful aspect of Tolkien's elves, but they obviously enjoyed some of Tolkien's writing

Faerunner wrote:

First they were enslaved by Tevinter magisters (who used their own
magic techniques to do it, btw) then they were imprisoned by Chantry
templars, but always mage elves get the short end of the stick in human
societies.

As I recall, weren't the elves so scared of mortality of humans that when Tevinter attacked they ran even though they had dragons and all sort at their command?

Faerunner wrote:

I agree with Anders and you though. I'm very surprised and disappointed
that the devs didn't use the already heated mage vs. templar conflict to
slip in the elf vs. human conflict, since both elves and mages are
oppressed by non-magic humans and they should find some common ground. 

If we are going to have war let's make it all out. That's my philosophy

I can kind of see some Tevinter slaves lucking out with a master that's
relatively kind to them, or at least lets them work in peace instead of
hounding or killing them all the time, the same way a city elf might
ocassionally luck out with a relatively kind employer or a decent job.
(Though I think that both are pretty unlikely.)

Good point. LOL I just wanted to lump every magister together. I blame Fenris.

I've always wondered what a freed slave does in Tevinter? Who needs to pay them for their work when they already have people doing it for free?

dracuella wrote:

This is my take on it, too. I cannot believe most slave owners would be
cruel to their slaves because quite frankly, slaves are valuable
property to them. They acquired them for a reason and for them to
perform that task well, they need to be in working order, so to speak.
Calculating? Perhaps but we're talking about people who own
other people *brrr*. This does not mean it's a good life in any way, it
simply means that beatings and torture of the amounts Fenris was
exposed to have to be rare and only, as Faerunner says, by sadists like
Danarius. 
I may be coloured by the amount of material on slavery in
the Caribbean I was made to read by my history teacher, where it was
very clear that while they were not free, most slaves were treated well
for the reasons mentioned above. It was an investment that had to be
protected

I wonder what  a slave owner does with slaves that have become elderly? I guess there are degrees to brutality and you're right, it's an investment (uggggg) But it's hard to see kindness in any society that accepts slavery and practices it.


David Gaider did state that Fenris and Danarius had an "intimate" relationship. In other words, I suspect Danarius raped him.


Ren, that picture of Danarius and Fenris always gets to me. Honestly, it is the most pitiful, disturbing imagery in the world. Poor Fen.

Modifié par aldien, 25 mai 2012 - 08:05 .

[Dutchess]

Now that we are talking about the "raping" anyway, I have a related question: what do you guys picture with rape in Fenris' case? I don't mean the graphic details. I mean Fenris thoughts and attitude towards it. Personally I think he didn't see it as "rape" or really wrong at the time. He may even have thought it a reward, a sign his master was pleased with him. Very disturbing idea, I know. Anyway, when I think about the abuse in Fenris' case, I don't picture the violent version of rape you mostly hear of nowadays. I don't think Danarius had to use force...

@ aldien: I know, that picture is terrible, and that is what makes it so good. The artist did an amazing job capturing this with something so simple and in itself innocent. There are no words, and yet it says so much.

Modifié par renjility, 25 mai 2012 - 08:41 .

[coldwetn0se]

Total speculation on my part (due mostly to how I role play my Hawkes--and by extention their companions--stories), but I always saw the sexual abuses being more "humilation" based, then actual physical contact between Danarius and Fenris. Not to suggest that physical contact is not humiliating, just that it was more about mental control and less of physical contact. I mean lets face it, Fenris has a quick temper and I can imagine that sometimes it is completely reactionary not methodical when he "lyrium flares". I just don't really see Danarius risking that.

Now it's true he could use blood magic to enslave, and I imagine that Danarius did use that on him at times (maybe more often than not....), but humiliation is hard to come by as a torture if someone is aptly compliant (which I imagine with "blood slave" it would be so). And I still see Danarius liking his tortures.....best accomplished with someone who recognizes they are being tortured. Not sure if I am making myself clear, but it is how I imagine it was between Fenris and Danarius.

[berelinde]

Staarbux wrote...

I know you didn't ask me but personally I assume that Fenris had never had consensual sex before he met Hawke. Given some of Danarius' comments if you're romancing Fenris, it's pretty clear he was abused while a slave. But I always assumed that, in terms of 'making love', Fenris was a virgin...

This is just my take on it, but I imagined that Fenris looked upon sex as just another transaction, something that was done to fulfil a need without emotional involvment. He does not seem ignorant when it comes to seduction.

[MissRedZelda]

Varania was still a b****, though.

I agree with what most people are saying - Fenris is a virgin in the love-making sense, but sex? No. Which kinda makes sense in his relationship with Isabela is you choose to not romance him. With Hawke, he has developed genuine feelings, and it scares him because he has no experience in that area. With Isabela, it's meaningless, NSA sex.

I still hate them together though. Fenris is MINE! I mean... Fenris is Hawke's...

[dracuella]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Varania was still a b****, though.

I agree with what most people are saying - Fenris is a virgin in the love-making sense, but sex? No. Which kinda makes sense in his relationship with Isabela is you choose to not romance him. With Hawke, he has developed genuine feelings, and it scares him because he has no experience in that area. With Isabela, it's meaningless, NSA sex.

 
Yes the conversation between Danarius and Fenris says everything to me despite saying absolutely nothing concrete. His rage is so apparent in his words, his features as he growls back at Danarius that in my mind there is no doubt Danarius used and abused him. Oh poor Fenris, how I longed to help you get revenge and kill your tormenter 

 I still hate them together though. Fenris is MINE! I mean... Fenris is Hawke's...

Haha, I never had any beef with Isabela trying to get into Fenris' smallclothes myself as it was so plain that he is only interested in me.. err my Hawke:whistle: when I romance him. He even brushes her off (slightly rudely, I should say) when she tries to tell him the story of how she managed to get the tax collector off his back. And.. well, if I'm not with him, why should he be alone? He's my very good friend first and foremost, I want him to be happy whether with or without me. So I don't really mind him having Isabela to blow off some steam, so to speak. I mean, I'm confident she's more than quite capable in that area 

Plus I like her. She's so in your face and as I said in a post somewhere earlier, she reminds me of some women I know irl. SO much fun!

[ladyshamen]

Random thought here. I have read that in some places that keep/kept slaves, certain slaves were 'allowed to breed'. I know how wrong that sounds. But if a person is going to keep slaves and has one or two that have outstanding qualities, they would want MORE of the same. Fenris was 'the best of the best' in fighting. I would think that Danarius would want more slaves with Fenris' strength, agility, ect. Just a thought.

[berelinde]

dracuella wrote...

Haha, I never had any beef with Isabela trying to get into Fenris' smallclothes myself as it was so plain that he is only interested in me.. err my Hawke:whistle: when I romance him. He even brushes her off (slightly rudely, I should say) when she tries to tell him the story of how she managed to get the tax collector off his back. And.. well, if I'm not with him, why should he be alone? He's my very good friend first and foremost, I want him to be happy whether with or without me. So I don't really mind him having Isabela to blow off some steam, so to speak. I mean, I'm confident she's more than quite capable in that area 

Plus I like her. She's so in your face and as I said in a post somewhere earlier, she reminds me of some women I know irl. SO much fun!

Precisely. About wanting him to be happy. Which is why he always winds up with Isabela in my games (when Hawke doesn't wind up with Isabela, that is), because Isabela makes him happy whereas my Hawkes seem to make him miserable. If he likes a NSA relationship, then that's what he should have. Wish Hawke had been given the option of doing that with him. Some of mine would totally have been cool with it.

[Ghost_Nappa]

*looks at current conversation and looks at clock* Oh man I gotta stop sleeping in late. ok while my brain is still functional ewww on the NSA sex. Yes I understand as an adult other adults do it and they are ok....but in the world of DA all I can think of is how many STDs will he pick off isabela.

I mean if he and Hawke don't get together I would of encouraged him to seek out Orana. I mean if shepard can let people persue or ****hold a relationship (Im looking at you edi and your sexaroid body) then why can't my hawke? Then again growing up as a prude and the butt of everyone's joke as local nerd fatgirl lonely mcvirginshire(not saying that for sympathy points, I bring it up in some sorta black humored nostalgia) I really dont get the NSA relationships.

But hey to each its own.

But back to that breeding thought...yeah Fenris might have some little bastards running around he'll never see. Or if he doesn't it might cement the theory his water pump isnt working.
Man that is a sad scenario on both sides.

[dralkjin]

Sialater wrote...

dralkjin wrote...

Sialater, I really like that picture. I love his eyes. He looks happy in that picture. I would be interested in reading your DA2 fic if you don't mind. I would also like to read other fics if anyone has any suggestions for me.

Oh, hi!  Thank you!

http://www.fanfictio...unds_of_Silence 

I haven't gotten to Fenris yet.  I took a break to finish the Shenko fic also listed on my profile.  Hope you like it!

Thank you. I read both chapters and I like what you have written so far. I haven't played a mage yet, so it's interesting to read what happens in that scenario. I'm looking forward to reading what Fenris will think of Margaret when he meets her. I love her so far. She's definitely not afraid to speak her mind. Please let me know when you have the next chapter done.

I read all of the other comments on this thread since I was last here. I had replies until I somehow managed to get myself kicked out of it before I was ready to submit it. Since I am annoyed that I have to start over, I will come back later with my comments about everything else. I do want to say hello and welcome our new friends. Thank you for adding more interesting topics for us to discuss. I'll return later.

[Dutchess]

ladyshamen wrote...

Random thought here. I have read that in some places that keep/kept slaves, certain slaves were 'allowed to breed'. I know how wrong that sounds. But if a person is going to keep slaves and has one or two that have outstanding qualities, they would want MORE of the same. Fenris was 'the best of the best' in fighting. I would think that Danarius would want more slaves with Fenris' strength, agility, ect. Just a thought.

A good point, although I personally think this was not the case with Fenris. Danarius seems like a possessive kind of man, and if he used Fenris for his own pleasure, I don't think he would want to "share" with other people, slaves no less. A child of Fenris would also not be of much value to Danarius (except to sell perhaps), because it would be years later before the kid had the right age to replace Fenris as a bodyguard. 
I think Danarius didn't bother to share Fenris' genes. Although it is certainly possible, since it's all speculation from here.

coldwetn0se wrote...

Total speculation on my part (due mostly to how I role play my Hawkes--and by extention their companions--stories), but I always saw the sexual abuses being more "humilation" based, then actual physical contact between Danarius and Fenris. Not to suggest that physical contact is not humiliating, just that it was more about mental control and less of physical contact. I mean lets face it, Fenris has a quick temper and I can imagine that sometimes it is completely reactionary not methodical when he "lyrium flares". I just don't really see Danarius risking that. 

Now it's true he could use blood magic to enslave, and I imagine that Danarius did use that on him at times (maybe more often than not....), but humiliation is hard to come by as a torture if someone is aptly compliant (which I imagine with "blood slave" it would be so). And I still see Danarius liking his tortures.....best accomplished with someone who recognizes they are being tortured. Not sure if I am making myself clear, but it is how I imagine it was between Fenris and Danarius.

 

Still just speculation from me, but I think it was not humiliating for Fenris at the time. It became humiliating after his escape, when he realized it was wrong wat had been done to him, that he had been used, but during his life as a slave, I don't think he was aware of it. As I said, he might have thought it was a sign his master was pleased with him, that is was a reward. With his duties as a bodyguard, he probably did not have much contact with other slaves, so it seems believable to me that he knew nothing about sex beside his experiences with Danarius.
Danarius might have enjoyed the humiliating part, the sign that he completely and in every way owned Fenris, that he could use him as he pleased. But it is still more about possession than humiliation.

Sorry, another creepy picture!

by caiterhe

Modifié par renjility, 26 mai 2012 - 05:49 .

[Ghost_Nappa]

Ren...you bring up a brilliant point I shoved off into a corner out of some form of morbid hope. *shudders*

Now onto a Kanye-swift-kick-change up...THeres a geek made body spray thats ode to Fenris.

[dracuella]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

Ren...you bring up a brilliant point I shoved off into a corner out of some form of morbid hope. *shudders*

Now onto a Kanye-swift-kick-change up...THeres a geek made body spray thats ode to Fenris.

I'm getting this. Oh, who am I kidding, I'm getting the set!

Mmmm the scent of Fenris in the morning *drool*

[Gervaise]

Fenris tells Hawke (in relation to the Fog Warrior tale) that a slave never thinks of anything but trying to please his master. Whilst he was Denarius' slave he may well have been sexually abused but at the time his only concern would have been that it kept Denarius satisfied. Once he managed to escape Denarius he was able to free himself of this compulsion and probably preferred to forget it ever happened.
I must admit that there are times when his relationship with Hawke may be a little too close to that with Denarius - "Command me to go and I shall" (submissive) or Glowy (aggressive followed by submissive) I've never rivalmanced him but I've seen the scene on You Tube and there he actually seems to be trying to avoid Hawke's kisses - it makes me feel quite uncomfortable, particularly when Hawke slams him against the wall and he is still turning his head away.
This is why at the end in the Gallows it is quite refreshing that he seems to take the initiative. May be at last he is free of his mental shackles.

[MissRedZelda]

berelinde wrote...

Precisely. About wanting him to be happy. Which is why he always winds up with Isabela in my games (when Hawke doesn't wind up with Isabela, that is), because Isabela makes him happy whereas my Hawkes seem to make him miserable. If he likes a NSA relationship, then that's what he should have. Wish Hawke had been given the option of doing that with him. Some of mine would totally have been cool with it.

That's . . . debatable. For the short term, a NSA relationship may work. But long term, no. Eventually, Isabela will break it off with him and go off somewhere else - since she's not one to be tied down. Then what? Will Fenris just move on to another woman? Because it seems those memories only crop when he's getting it on with someone he deeply cares about on an intimate level, and that may not narrow it down to Hawke alone.

Plus, it's clear that he's deeply in love with hawke if you choose to romance him. Being in love is a natural thing, but it's just not something he's used to. Besides, by the end of the game, it's clear he's come to terms with his feelings - he just needed time to realise just how deeply he does love him/her. And, in my honest opinion, this seems to signify that he's truly willing to let go of all his past anger and sorrow and move on.

So, with that in mind, I feel that his NSA relationship with Isabela does more harm than good. To me, it just shows that he's still extremily detatched from the rest of the world on an emotional level.

Gervaise wrote...

I must admit that there are times when his relationship with Hawke may be a little too close to that with Denarius - "Command me to go and I shall" (submissive) or Glowy (aggressive followed by submissive) I've never rivalmanced him but I've seen the scene on You Tube and there he actually seems to be trying to avoid Hawke's kisses - it makes me feel quite uncomfortable, particularly when Hawke slams him against the wall and he is still turning his head away.
This is why at the end in the Gallows it is quite refreshing that he seems to take the initiative. May be at last he is free of his mental shackles.

Really? I always rivalmance him, and he never turns his head away. In fact, when Hawke slams him against the wall, he does that eye-roll-pleasure thing. The head turning may have been a glitch on the player's part.

Well anyway, I just watched "Ladyhawke" again for the first time in years (I loved the movie as a kid). And . . . well, I can see why some of my friends hate it (It mostly has to do with Matthew "That's a lot of fish" Broderick, and the dated '80s soundtrack). But me? I freakin' LOVE that movie! It's one of my all time favourite guilty pleasures, and I love it even more now that it reminds me of F!Hawke and Fenris.

Also, it's one of the few '80s movies which I can see benefiting greatly from a remake. It mostly has to do with the soundtrack and casting, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when movies set in medieval have blatant American accents and euphemisms in them. It just baffles me why Hollywood feels the need to try and remake classics like "Total Recall" and such. I just pray to God they don't touch Highlander. Especially Highlander.

Modifié par MissRedZelda, 27 mai 2012 - 12:04 .

[aldien]

Gervaise wrote...

Fenris tells Hawke (in relation to the Fog Warrior tale) that a slave never thinks of anything but trying to please his master. Whilst he was Denarius' slave he may well have been sexually abused but at the time his only concern would have been that it kept Denarius satisfied. Once he managed to escape Denarius he was able to free himself of this compulsion and probably preferred to forget it ever happened.
I must admit that there are times when his relationship with Hawke may be a little too close to that with Denarius - "Command me to go and I shall" (submissive) or Glowy (aggressive followed by submissive) I've never rivalmanced him but I've seen the scene on You Tube and there he actually seems to be trying to avoid Hawke's kisses - it makes me feel quite uncomfortable, particularly when Hawke slams him against the wall and he is still turning his head away.
This is why at the end in the Gallows it is quite refreshing that he seems to take the initiative. May be at last he is free of his mental shackles.

I must admit that there are times when his relationship with Hawke may be a little too close to that with Denarius

You bring up a point that is rarely discussed from what I have seen. I think people either do not notice the similarities between Hawke and Danarius's relationship with Fenris or they, like me, are often in denial.

This is something that has plagued me recently in such a way that I'm finding it hard to write Hawke and Fenris together. A rogue or sword wielding Hawke makes the scenario a bit easier to swallow, but a mage Hawke and Fenris... uggggggg it is really starting to feel icky and dysfunctional. Fenris follows orders, follows Hawke, does the same thing he has always done when he was with Danarius: kill people. His current life and his past mimic each other in many, not all, but many ways.

I have never rivalmanced him either. I attempted it once and gave up before the game was past Act 2.

it makes me feel quite uncomfortable, particularly when Hawke slams him against the wall and he is still turning his head away.

Totally agree. This is a man who has been forced into submission his entire life. When I saw that rivalmance scene I cringed. It felt... let's just say it had hints of Danarius.

This is why at the end in the Gallows it is quite refreshing that he
seems to take the initiative. May be at last he is free of his mental
shackles.[

Personally, I don't see how anyone can ever be free of that sort of abuse. It's not really something most of us, if any of us, can fathom. It's more of a 'one day at a time' scenario, in my opinion. Those sorts of mental scars do not heal. You learn how to live with them.

Fenris did take the initiative and kiss Hawke at the end, but... when Fenris asks Hawke for forgiveness, if Hawke accepts it, Fenris says: I am yours. So, that spells out ownership to me. Then, I have to ask at the end of the game, what is Hawke to Fenris? Is it really two people sharing a relationship as equals or a man who doesn't know quite what that means and falls back on what he has always known?

Ren, I agree with you. That artist did an amazing job of conveying extreme emotion in one picture. Of the many pictures that have been posted to this thread, the one with Danarius whispering in Fenris's ear has stayed with me. *shivers* It's great art, but so very sad.

[aldien]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Slightly off topic but why don't any Bioware folks come on here to clear up the QA on Fenris? Lol, part of me wonders if there's a memo going around their office that says: AVOID OFFICIAL FENRIS THREAD. FANGIRLS PRESENT.

That and maybe because we're good girls who police ourselves rather well.

Because David Gaider is a smart man who doesn't want to be outnumbered by a bunch of hormonal females. That's my guess.


Your link didnt work for me Ghost. Hey! Leave Fenris's little bastards out of this

Modifié par aldien, 27 mai 2012 - 12:05 .

[Ryzaki]

Gervaise wrote...

Fenris tells Hawke (in relation to the Fog Warrior tale) that a slave never thinks of anything but trying to please his master. Whilst he was Denarius' slave he may well have been sexually abused but at the time his only concern would have been that it kept Denarius satisfied. Once he managed to escape Denarius he was able to free himself of this compulsion and probably preferred to forget it ever happened.
I must admit that there are times when his relationship with Hawke may be a little too close to that with Denarius - "Command me to go and I shall" (submissive) or Glowy (aggressive followed by submissive) I've never rivalmanced him but I've seen the scene on You Tube and there he actually seems to be trying to avoid Hawke's kisses - it makes me feel quite uncomfortable, particularly when Hawke slams him against the wall and he is still turning his head away.
This is why at the end in the Gallows it is quite refreshing that he seems to take the initiative. May be at last he is free of his mental shackles.

Ah I see why it bothers some people.

I just headcanon him as liking necking more. (Given the weird jerky way his head moves I'm thinking it's more of the "I'm not going to look at you." cutscene issue BW games sometimes get. Especially jarring in ME3 where well I had two people in a conversation and both of them were looking everywhere except each other. )

[MissRedZelda]

I must be weird. Because I never saw Hawke and Fenris's relationship as . . . Danarius-like, even in rivalmance, for reasons I've stated above. Just because he says, "I am yours" to Hawke after you've successfully romanced him does not mean he's giving up his freedom. If that was so, then that would mean that anyone is a relationship is a slave (I'm talking about good, healthy ones, mind). The way I see it, Fenris finally sees that he is now free to love Hawke (judging by that Umph! Kiss at the end. Maybe after the events of the game, Fenris will finally take some dominance in the relationship. It's subjective, after all.