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[aldien]

MissRedZelda wrote...

I must be weird. Because I never saw Hawke and Fenris's relationship as . . . Danarius-like, even in rivalmance, for reasons I've stated above. Just because he says, "I am yours" to Hawke after you've successfully romanced him does not mean he's giving up his freedom. If that was so, then that would mean that anyone is a relationship is a slave (I'm talking about good, healthy ones, mind). The way I see it, Fenris finally sees that he is now free to love Hawke (judging by that Umph! Kiss at the end. Maybe after the events of the game, Fenris will finally take some dominance in the relationship. It's subjective, after all.

No, you are not weird. That is exactly how I interpreted their relationship up until recently. Saying 'I am yours' is only an example of something that sounds a bit off and probabaly only because he is an ex slave. If it had been Anders, I would not have given it another thought. The nature of Hawke and Fenris's relationship is... unusual. Let's put it that way.

If Hawke were to remove herself/himself from public conflict after the final battle, I could see the relationship being one that has the potential to be healthy. Until then, Hawke will continue to lead and Fenris will follow. People's problems will endanger both of them and Fenris will continue to kill. He, in my opinion, needs a healtheir lifestyle, one where Hawke is not making all of the decisions. *shrugs* just personal opinion.

Modifié par aldien, 27 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[MissRedZelda]

I suppose. But by the end of the game, it seems that Fenris is finally letting go of his past. Hawke just seems to be a natural born leader (and is also the primary rotagonist in the game, so naturally her companians wouls take orders from her), but she/he is also a good person who would never harm an innocent. Perhaps it's a symbol of trust from Fenris, that when he says "I am yours."

I'm sorry, but I just fail to see the slavery/abuse/unhealthiness in the relationship. Until he/she actually starts ordering him to do things he doesn't want, abuses him, and such, then I really can't see what's wrong with their relationship.

[Dutchess]

Fenris does not follow Hawke around and obeys orders in the same manner as with Danarius. He offered his services to Hawke after he/she helped him, because he felt like he owed Hawke for this, but also with in the back of his mind Hawke's protection could come in handy in the future. "I felt like I owed you, but I also thought you could help me," he confesses during his second Questioning Beliefs when rivaled. So he is thinking about himself when he follows Hawke. It is in his own best interest.

That Hawke is the leader of the group and Fenris one of the followers, does not turn this into a master-slave relationship. Fenris is at all times free to leave if he wishes so. He does leave when his own interests are being ignored (for example Hawke refusing to go after Hadriana. Fenris will leave the party then). He debates with Hawke about their thoughts on mages and such. When will a slave dare to question his master's beliefs or motives? With Hawke, he learns what it is like to follow someone's orders and still be their equal. I think the relationship is healthy and actually helps Fenris to further distance himself from his past slave mentality.

The wall-slamming indicates more passion than dominance, in my opinion. A master-slave relationship is not passionate. There has to be passion in the Hawke-Fenris relation. Fenris is confused and scared of all the crazy things he is feeling, and because he tends to hide things like that, you really need a strong attraction, a building desire and passion, to get him to snap and give in.

"I am yours." There is so much in that sentence when it comes from Fenris, because, yes, it suggests ownership. But it is not object ownership as in slavery. It's just not. With "I am yours" Fenris says how much he trusts Hawke. For an ex-slave to say something like that, it suggests trust on a deep level.He has not been bought, there are no papers that prove ownership. No, Fenris offers himself. Not as toy, tool or pet, but as a man. He admits he opens his heart for Hawke, and that he hopes Hawke will do the same for him.
"I am yours" does not say "do with me as you please". To me, it says "I trust you, and I will stay with you because I want to."

And I have said this before, but I will do it again. Loving someone does give the other person power over you. But it works both ways when people are in love with each other. In a way, yes, Fenris is a slave to his strong feelings for Hawke. But the same can be said about Hawke. Hawke waits for three years. Three years without moving on to some fun with Isabela. And after three years, Hawke does not say "f*ck you, you've let me wait for too long" but Hawke forgives Fenris. Because his/her feelings for Fenris are as strong as Fenris' feelings for him/her.
During those three years, Hawke was powerless. Fenris is the one who restarts the relationship. Fenris is the one with that power. So it's actually Hawke who is more on the submissive side here, voluntarily or not.

End of passionate rant.


pyromaniac03


pyromaniac03

[MissRedZelda]

@renjility. Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself :-)

Well, I'm doing a third replay of DA2. My A-Team mostly consists of Fenris, Anders, and Varric. I sometimes switch out Varric and Anders for Isabela and Merril, but I mostly stick with Tank (fenris), Ranger (Varric), Healer (Anders, Myself), and Offensive Mage (Myself) most of the time.

And also, because I love their party banter, The Jersey Shore drama between Fenris and Anders is especially entertaining. They start a banter, and I'm just like:

Modifié par MissRedZelda, 27 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[dracuella]

renjility wrote...

That Hawke is the leader of the group and Fenris one of the followers, does not turn this into a master-slave relationship. Fenris is at all times free to leave if he wishes so. He does leave when his own interests are being ignored (for example Hawke refusing to go after Hadriana. Fenris will leave the party then). He debates with Hawke about their thoughts on mages and such. When will a slave dare to question his master's beliefs or motives? With Hawke, he learns what it is like to follow someone's orders and still be their equal. I think the relationship is healthy and actually helps Fenris to further distance himself from his past slave mentality.

The wall-slamming indicates more passion than dominance, in my opinion. A master-slave relationship is not passionate. There has to be passion in the Hawke-Fenris relation. Fenris is confused and scared of all the crazy things he is feeling, and because he tends to hide things like that, you really need a strong attraction, a building desire and passion, to get him to snap and give in.

"I am yours." There is so much in that sentence when it comes from Fenris, because, yes, it suggests ownership. But it is not object ownership as in slavery. It's just not. With "I am yours" Fenris says how much he trusts Hawke. For an ex-slave to say something like that, it suggests trust on a deep level.He has not been bought, there are no papers that prove ownership. No, Fenris offers himself. Not as toy, tool or pet, but as a man. He admits he opens his heart for Hawke, and that he hopes Hawke will do the same for him.
"I am yours" does not say "do with me as you please". To me, it says "I trust you, and I will stay with you because I want to."

And I have said this before, but I will do it again. Loving someone does give the other person power over you. But it works both ways when people are in love with each other. In a way, yes, Fenris is a slave to his strong feelings for Hawke. But the same can be said about Hawke. Hawke waits for three years. Three years without moving on to some fun with Isabela. And after three years, Hawke does not say "f*ck you, you've let me wait for too long" but Hawke forgives Fenris. Because his/her feelings for Fenris are as strong as Fenris' feelings for him/her.
During those three years, Hawke was powerless. Fenris is the one who restarts the relationship. Fenris is the one with that power. So it's actually Hawke who is more on the submissive side here, voluntarily or not.

End of passionate rant.

I love that passionate and very beautiful rant, renji <3 It has given me a new perspective on the relationship they have and opened my eyes for just how special it is to be romancing Fenris. It has made me appreciate having Fenris with my and saying "I am yours" so much more 

I never thought about the dedication and surrender it must be for Fenris to give himself completely and willingly to someone else after his time as a slave. The abuse must cast a shadow over everything that reminds him of that time and it is, as aldien says, something none of us can fathom since (hopefully) none of us have nor ever will experience anything like it. 

My take on his 'command me' was always that of a knight talking to his commander. I never saw it as submissive in the slave sense, it was always "you are my leader and I trust you to make the right decisions. Therefore I shall follow your orders". And the "I am yours" I NEVER in any way interpreted as a slave submitting; it is a wholehearted and unconditional declaration of his affection and love for Hawke, saying that she could count on him through good and bad. *sigh* just thinking about it makes me squee a little inside 

Edited for extra lines 

Modifié par dracuella, 27 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[MissRedZelda]

And true, we may never be able to fathom what Fenris went through as a slave. But I think him being in a relationship with Hawke would help him at least partially recover, and carry on a normal-ish life. Maybe even have a family - either born or adopted.

[aldien]

dracuella wrote...

renjility wrote...

That Hawke is the leader of the group and Fenris one of the followers, does not turn this into a master-slave relationship. Fenris is at all times free to leave if he wishes so. He does leave when his own interests are being ignored (for example Hawke refusing to go after Hadriana. Fenris will leave the party then). He debates with Hawke about their thoughts on mages and such. When will a slave dare to question his master's beliefs or motives? With Hawke, he learns what it is like to follow someone's orders and still be their equal. I think the relationship is healthy and actually helps Fenris to further distance himself from his past slave mentality.

The wall-slamming indicates more passion than dominance, in my opinion. A master-slave relationship is not passionate. There has to be passion in the Hawke-Fenris relation. Fenris is confused and scared of all the crazy things he is feeling, and because he tends to hide things like that, you really need a strong attraction, a building desire and passion, to get him to snap and give in.

"I am yours." There is so much in that sentence when it comes from Fenris, because, yes, it suggests ownership. But it is not object ownership as in slavery. It's just not. With "I am yours" Fenris says how much he trusts Hawke. For an ex-slave to say something like that, it suggests trust on a deep level.He has not been bought, there are no papers that prove ownership. No, Fenris offers himself. Not as toy, tool or pet, but as a man. He admits he opens his heart for Hawke, and that he hopes Hawke will do the same for him.
"I am yours" does not say "do with me as you please". To me, it says "I trust you, and I will stay with you because I want to."

And I have said this before, but I will do it again. Loving someone does give the other person power over you. But it works both ways when people are in love with each other. In a way, yes, Fenris is a slave to his strong feelings for Hawke. But the same can be said about Hawke. Hawke waits for three years. Three years without moving on to some fun with Isabela. And after three years, Hawke does not say "f*ck you, you've let me wait for too long" but Hawke forgives Fenris. Because his/her feelings for Fenris are as strong as Fenris' feelings for him/her.
During those three years, Hawke was powerless. Fenris is the one who restarts the relationship. Fenris is the one with that power. So it's actually Hawke who is more on the submissive side here, voluntarily or not.

End of passionate rant.

I love that passionate and very beautiful rant, renji <3 It has given me a new perspective on the relationship they have and opened my eyes for just how special it is to be romancing Fenris. It has made me appreciate having Fenris with my and saying "I am yours" so much more 

I never thought about the dedication and surrender it must be for Fenris to give himself completely and willingly to someone else after his time as a slave. The abuse must cast a shadow over everything that reminds him of that time and it is, as aldien says, something none of us can fathom since (hopefully) none of us have nor ever will experience anything like it. 

My take on his 'command me' was always that of a knight talking to his commander. I never saw it as submissive in the slave sense, it was always "you are my leader and I trust you to make the right decisions. Therefore I shall follow your orders". And the "I am yours" I NEVER in any way interpreted as a slave submitting; it is a wholehearted and unconditional declaration of his affection and love for Hawke, saying that she could count on him through good and bad. *sigh* just thinking about it makes me squee a little inside 

Edited for extra lines 

You know, Ren if I wasn't around to annoy you there would never be any passionate rants.

Hehehehe love seeing the passion explode in one big heap of fangirls united. *puts on armor* I'm expecting someone to barge in my front door any minute and maul me to death.

 I was not saying that Fenris and Hawke have a master-slave relationship. It's not that clear cut. This more of an uncomfortable undercurrent.

No, saying 'I am yours' is not equivalent to Fenris handing over his freedom.  We don't know what is going through Fenris's mind, but the words sounded off. Maybe, it is the only way he knows how to express himself, I don't bleeding know! But, the phrasing of some of Fenris's lines sounded too leader/follower to me, instead of completely free man speaking, if that makes sense.

I would have preferred to see more of Hawke asking companions their opinions rather than making every decision, and for them to be more reactionary. You are telling me that Fenris would have remained friends with Isabela after she was willing to make a deal with Castion? I don't think so, and would Fenris have remained in a relationship with a person who allowed Isabela to give Castion the papers so the slaver could continue his slave trade?  I'm thinking not. Whether I am supposed to take moments like that as a limitation of the game or as a sign that Fenris is obeying and he doesn't even know it, I'm not entirely sure. *shrugs* But for a man who just fought hard for his freedom it seems off that he would not end the relationship and leave.

I am suggesting that their relationship is not exactly healthy in some, but not all, aspects. I felt the same exact way as all of you about Fenris and Hawke literally a week ago, and if someone had suggested what I am suggesting, I would have reacted *looks up* like everyone above me. This isn't about the touchy feely side of things, it's about the mental side of it all.

I am intrigued by how people interpret the game and also how their interpretations changes over time, which I have seen on here again and again. But, I am unfortunately not convinced by one kiss that it means Fenris has no dysfunctional tendencies in the relationship and that automatically makes the relationship perfect. Did I like the kiss? Hell yes. It's not about that. It's about two people who have recently reunited, a man who has recently received his freedom and has had little time to explore what that means inside of his relationship with Hawke. During their journey, I noticed peculiar things, whether that makes a relationship bad or good is up to interpretation. It could also just be explained by game limitations, but then that was implemented poorly.

Modifié par aldien, 27 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[Ghost_Nappa]

For all we know being with Fenris will be just as bad with Anders due to his personal demons and not causing a damn war.
We don't know certain no-no moves hawke might pull out fo affection that might trigger some memory or muscle memoy of 'bad touch'. He still mentions about his hate being hard to let go, yet he will learn to lessen it with hawke. Thats a lifetime achievement not a game achievement.

Eveen better is depending on each players cannon hawke we have to fit in those perspectives to the relationship. And out of the three classes, Mage hawkes have to work pretty damn hard to maintain a relationship reminding him he's their equal.
Sure that could be biased at the rouges and warriors that supports mages, but the actual mage job...thats just a hot mess no matter if you lead a rival or friendmance.

My thoughts on the matter are yes Fenris is taking a big leap in emotionally opening himself up to a person who loves him for being him, but for situations in the game? I'll take it as any dysfunctional couple.
Hmmm its too hot my end to form a eligible response, but i think their relationship would be hawke letting Fenris make decisions like an adult while helping him be comfortiable with it.

Besides ALdy those ingame decisions that could of make or break the relationship reall is painted across the board for the other romances and drive me crazy over thinking it.

[CuriousArtemis]

This is going around tumblr and I love it:

Of all the lies they ever told—anders and that potion, merrill and that mirror, isabela and that relic, hawke saying ‘i can handle this’ when it came to the arishok and pretty much everything that ever came out of varric’s mouth, living fiction the way he did in order to shed some light on the truth—the biggest one was fenris, with barely any fanfare. no explosions, no demons, no city of chains burning to the ground. just a broody elf saying, "there are no puppy eyes" when anyone could see for themselves [that] that was the tallest tale of them all.

(Did have to add some commas and such for readability)

[Fault Girl]

Thought you guys might be interested in my Hawke who will eventually romance Fenris based-fanfic, it's bascially a retelling but it's going to be quite violent and brutal I think. I thought I might as well post the link here.

The Rise

It's a slow starter but hope some of you enjoy it.

Modifié par Vault N7, 27 mai 2012 - 08:23 .

[dracuella]

motomotogirl wrote...

This is going around tumblr and I love it:

Of all the lies they ever told—anders and that potion, merrill and that mirror, isabela and that relic, hawke saying ‘i can handle this’ when it came to the arishok and pretty much everything that ever came out of varric’s mouth, living fiction the way he did in order to shed some light on the truth—the biggest one was fenris, with barely any fanfare. no explosions, no demons, no city of chains burning to the ground. just a broody elf saying, "there are no puppy eyes" when anyone could see for themselves [that] that was the tallest tale of them all.

(Did have to add some commas and such for readability)

Hahahaha this is so great! Fenris, Fenris, why don't you just give in and admit it? Even innocent and unworldly Merrill can tell you're lying through your teeth
I'm going to save this in my special Fenris collection and thoroughly abuse it in some fanfiction

[MissRedZelda]

Sooooo... who felt the urge to re-watch Ladyhawke after romancing Fenris?

I did :-D

[Ghost_Nappa]

So I heard it on the Thane forum grapevine that Mr DG himself played ME and is applauding the writers for Thane's death on his tweets....be very afraid people. He meant be given an idea to cement what to do with Fenris. *hopes it just paranoia.*

[coldwetn0se]

Admittedly total paranoia, but that is exactly one of my fears.......really don't want to see another "forced" death of a LI. Haven't handled the last one well at all.......got the wine bottles as proof. Heh!

[MissRedZelda]

0_o Lordy, I hope it's just an assumption. It could just be that, giving the fact that they made it clear in ME2 that Thane was dying. And, to quote him, "The best medics in the Hanar homeworld could not cure me. I doubt your could." And I agree, Thane's death was very well handled and not cheap in anyway. Come to think of it, none of the ME3 deaths were cheap (not counting the ending. I've headcanoned it out of existence in my mind).

So, I actually doubt that your DA2 LI will die. Or, there might be an option ot prevent said death.

Hopefully.

@ aldien. I'm sorry, but I personally think you're reading waaaay to much into the relationship. Fenris is devoted to Hawke as a lover/boyfriend should be, and Hawke is too him in a lover/girlfriend/boyfriend way. They're both committed to each other. A relationship is about that much, on both sides. It just so happens that in this context, Hawke just so happens to be the designated leader of the group. She never abuses him into doing something he doesn't want to, so I really can't see what you're so worried about.

[aldien]

coldwetn0se wrote...

Admittedly total paranoia, but that is exactly one of my fears.......really don't want to see another "forced" death of a LI. Haven't handled the last one well at all.......got the wine bottles as proof. Heh!

That has been my greatest fear. It's why I keep saying I hope they leave the Hawke/Fenris ending the way it is because there is way too much room to mess it up and I'll be buying the wine if they kill Fenris. Actually, that would be the end of the DA experience for me. How do you deal with it Cold? If it had been Fenris instead of Thane, I would just walk away to be honest in total disgust.

Ghost, you are scaring me David Gaider feeds on doing shocking cruel things to characters, I swear. Either way, I'm not buying DA3 until I know there is no shocking cruel ending for Fenris :/ I don't want to see it and I'll be asking carefully what happens so I can get the nice fluffy version first.

[LolaLei]

You guys have probably already seen this. but here's a Machinima Adaptation of "A Short Story" by David Gaider, I think it's fan made. Anyway, enjoy!

[Ghost_Nappa]

@Aldien Not trying to scare...just beefing up our defenses so when it does happen we can just pull a mel brooks on him

@MRZ .......riiiight. I wont go into it, but cosmos and cold can fill in for me the character assassination the writer did to him after all that hope they showe of his prolonging his life by a few months or years. THe only death that was treated well was Mordin...that made me cry cause he redeemed himself.. Thane's....well his was accompanied by a scene that had me shouting "Who choreographed this awful fight?! Shoot him, dont run up! God gimmiie the controller!'
Still Im just wrapping under bad writing...look at jacob.

Hell I need to stop investing emotionally into characters....wheres Lollipop Chainsaw when I need it?...or fanart of Lollipop Chainsaw cosplay with Hawke and Fenris!

[Ghost_Nappa]

LolaLei wrote...

You guys have probably already seen this. but here's a Machinima Adaptation of "A Short Story" by David Gaider, I think it's fan made. Anyway, enjoy!

Oh trust me we  were on that like a whino with cheap booze. Was a pretty damn good job.

[LolaLei]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You guys have probably already seen this. but here's a Machinima Adaptation of "A Short Story" by David Gaider, I think it's fan made. Anyway, enjoy!

Oh trust me we  were on that like a whino with cheap booze. Was a pretty damn good job.

LOL!

I'm really impressed with it, I didn't even know it was possible to put the DA2 characters in DA:O like that. Ya know, to this day I've still never been able to romance Fenris... the buggers having none of it lol. Maybe my games bugged or something.

[aldien]

MissRedZelda wrote...

0_o Lordy, I hope it's just an assumption. It could just be that, giving the fact that they made it clear in ME2 that Thane was dying. And, to quote him, "The best medics in the Hanar homeworld could not cure me. I doubt your could." And I agree, Thane's death was very well handled and not cheap in anyway. Come to think of it, none of the ME3 deaths were cheap (not counting the ending. I've headcanoned it out of existence in my mind).

So, I actually doubt that your DA2 LI will die. Or, there might be an option ot prevent said death.

Hopefully.

@ aldien. I'm sorry, but I personally think you're reading waaaay to much into the relationship. Fenris is devoted to Hawke as a lover/boyfriend should be, and Hawke is too him in a lover/girlfriend/boyfriend way. They're both committed to each other. A relationship is about that much, on both sides. It just so happens that in this context, Hawke just so happens to be the designated leader of the group. She never abuses him into doing something he doesn't want to, so I really can't see what you're so worried about.

You just added that People always pick on me when I am not picking on them.

but I personally think you're reading waaaay to much into the relationship.

That is what I do. When I am not on the forum, I am writing Fenris and Hawke. When I am not writing about their relationship, I am considering it and disecting it and reading what the author of Fenris has to say about him, though I take it with a grain of salt, because what he says, to an extent, and what the game portrays are two different things entirely. I also factor in greatly what everyone on this forum has to say about him.  I do take every serious discussion concerning Fenris and think on it. Sometimes, I agree, other times I disagree, and sometimes I change my mind.

Fenris is devoted to Hawke as a lover/boyfriend should be, and Hawke is
too him in a lover/girlfriend/boyfriend way. They're both committed to
each other.

I never said they were not, but every person interprets their relationshio differently and sometimes it is not for the best. It simply depends on many variables. I don't see anything without complication. Life is messy and it makes for good writing when it gets muddy.

She never abuses him into doing something he doesn't want to, so I really can't see what you're so worried about

I don't think she abuses him. I'm pretty sure he'd kick her ass if she tried to. It's not a deliberate or conscious act on either part. It is a potential dysfunction because of Fenris's past.

I'm not worried. I'm just considering possibilities and debating to see what others think. Sometimes, I am swayed and I eventually agree. Other times, you may as well lock me in a pen and band me like a bull.

Last week, I thought Fenris and Hawke were the best couple that ever existed. Then, I decided they were extremely dysfunctional. Now, I am working on my headcannon after their last battle with Meredith. I have decided that if they settle down together their relationship has more potential and it will be quite lovely.

Modifié par aldien, 29 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[aldien]

LolaLei wrote...

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

You guys have probably already seen this. but here's a Machinima Adaptation of "A Short Story" by David Gaider, I think it's fan made. Anyway, enjoy!

Oh trust me we  were on that like a whino with cheap booze. Was a pretty damn good job.

LOL!

I'm really impressed with it, I didn't even know it was possible to put the DA2 characters in DA:O like that. Ya know, to this day I've still never been able to romance Fenris... the buggers having none of it lol. Maybe my games bugged or something.

I absolutely adore that machinima. I'm going to go watch it again. Thanks for posting the link!

If you love Fenris you must watch it or you don't love him.

He is a contrite little pain in the rear but well worth the effort. You have to concede to his every whim or ****** him off a lot.

Have you tried to romance him completely or is there a part you are stuck on or can't get past? Everyone on here is eager to help.

Modifié par aldien, 29 mai 2012 - 02:06 .

[LolaLei]

aldien: I've tried to romance him properly both as a rivalmance and friendly, stayed faithful and done everything the guide told me too, including all the presents. But as soon as he comes to visit Hawke where the first encounter should begin. I ask him to stay but he declines the offer and leaves.

It's bloody annoying because he's the only one I've not been able to romance yet and he seems to have the best, most natural romance arc as well. Which is just my luck really lol.

[MissRedZelda]

If you get his friendship/rivalry to full, he should come back a second time do say the whole, "I've been thinking of you" line. It happened to me, and I was rewarded with a scene that actually made me blush. Almost as much as the Alistair romance (I literally melted when he gave me the rose).

EDIT: To trigger it, just return to the Hawke Estate.

Modifié par MissRedZelda, 29 mai 2012 - 02:23 .