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[dracuella]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

@Amirit tomato, tomatoe. This isnt the Loghain fan page, but really what a way to show a man of great stature falling from grace.

Granted there are other fans who don't like our dear fenny due to his bigotry of mages and the main asinine reasons of him being "emo, animehead, fantasy swordman, "gay" and arrrogant." But us fans of him get to learn his character and understand him.

Same for Loghain. Yes the man has major flaws, along with his daughter, but they have those to show how they aren't just one dimensional. I mean would we all love Fenris, as a character, if he was friggin perfect?

Agreed, Ghost, a perfect guy/girl is only interesting for so long. I know I'd be bored out of my wits with someone like that and while I'm not the sort who needs arguments and fights to keep things interesting, I do like the occasional cloudy skies for variation. I think that's also one of the reasons for my attraction to Fenris. He's definitely not perfect and most certainly never dull. With him, especially on rivalry, things will be nothing if not interesting  ^^

As for Loghain I hated his guts with a vengeance and delighted as Alistair sent his sword towards his neck on the first playthrough. The second, however, I didn't feel at all as convinced since I had read the first of the Dragon Age books and this time had a far better understanding of both his background and where he was coming from. It saddened me immensely that I had to kill the greatest strategist of the war against Orlais and the closest thing to a brother King Maric ever had. It frustrated me that I could not recognise all he had done for Ferelden, that I could not take his service to his country into consideration and just send him prison. 

If they ever make a prequel where Loghain and Rowan are in, I can tell you, they WILL end up together 

[MissRedZelda]

Wow. I must be a minority, the book only made me hate Loighain even more. I couldn't understand why he would fight to defend his brethren and friends, and then betray then year later. I understand it's because he hates Orlais, but . . . But he's still betraying his own countrymen!

So yeah. No sympathy from me whatsoever.

EDIT: As for Alistair, I really don't see the problem in becoming his mistress - it doesn't mean what it means today, considering the time period setting on the game. Mistresses held power in court, and were given rooves over their heads and food on the table. And yes, they could influence the court if they so wished, by appealing to the King. 

For example, Madame de Pompadour didn't live in poverty, didn't she? She was Louis XV official Cheif Mistress (or maîtresse-en-titre). [/b][/b]

Modifié par MissRedZelda, 19 août 2012 - 01:08 .

[Amirit]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Wow. I must be a minority, the book only made me hate Loighain even more. I couldn't understand why he would fight to defend his brethren and friends, and then betray then year later. I understand it's because he hates Orlais, but . . . But he's still betraying his own countrymen!

So yeah. No sympathy from me whatsoever.

May be you are a minority but sertanly not alone - I am there with you. I saw in the book a completely ruthless manipulative villain. Very smart - no doubs, good strategist - yes to it too, but villain covering his true desires with the argument - all evil I do is the neccessary one for the country! The worst type. And as it was mentioned many times Anora is a "true Loghain's daugter". Leaving Ferelden to their mercy is like turning it in to another Orley. May be not such a bad thing for the _country_ but if you do care about future of elves or about life of any individual man... I'll repeat after Alistair "how can one evil fix another one"?
 And sign under this one "
No sympathy from me whatsoever"

Modifié par Amirit, 19 août 2012 - 01:07 .

[MissRedZelda]

But that being said, I think Anora is a better choice for the throne. Alistair is inexperience, and just plain doesn't want it, so I'm not about to push him into it. Anora has the experience and the ability to handle politics. I can't see her doing what her father did and betraying her own countrymen during a Blight battle like Loghain, she isn't that crazy.

So . . . any news of Fenris in DA3, yet?

[Amirit]

Alistair is not alone - Arl Eamon is his adviser, as well as other loyal noble families, mages represented by Wynn, elves, represented by elder and warden itself. Not to mention that from the talk before Landsmeet Alistair was ready for his king's duty. But nm.

Do you truly believe Fenris can be even a cameo in DA3?

[MissRedZelda]

It just means he's vulnerable to being manipulated by the court. He'll just be king in name if Eamon is his advisor (and anyone who knows me knows how much I despise that f@#$er. The way he oushed poo Ali into being king, it's like he's interested in reulng through the guy. He's every bit an oppotunist as Loghain). He says he is ready, but really, he has no business being on the throne when there's someone who's been the real power behind the throne for going on five years now. Besides, according to the epilogues, he spends most of his time away from court.

I can see Fenris leading an underground slave rebellion in Tevintar.

Modifié par MissRedZelda, 19 août 2012 - 02:06 .

[Amirit]

MissRedZelda wrote...
 Besides, according to the epilogues, he spends most of his time away from court.

I can see Fenris leading an underground slave rebellion in Tevintar.

Not if he was hardened. In that case he mentioned as a good ruler. And if we look at the modern democratic societies - this is how it works. Some big groups come to rule, not a single person. Actually, not every king was a sigle ruler either - in many countries king only represented a group of supporters. So, both ways it's fine. 

I thought it was already solid that DA3 is about mages vs templars - no slaves?

Modifié par Amirit, 19 août 2012 - 03:07 .

[MissRedZelda]

Well, either way. In my game canon, he's never king. The way I see it, he doesn't want it, so I see no reason in pushing him into it like Eamon. Anora has more experience, so she's the best candidate in my personal opinion.

[Xilizhra]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

@Amirit tomato, tomatoe. This isnt the Loghain fan page, but really what a way to show a man of great stature falling from grace.

Granted there are other fans who don't like our dear fenny due to his bigotry of mages and the main asinine reasons of him being "emo, animehead, fantasy swordman, "gay" and arrrogant." But us fans of him get to learn his character and understand him.

Same for Loghain. Yes the man has major flaws, along with his daughter, but they have those to show how they aren't just one dimensional. I mean would we all love Fenris, as a character, if he was friggin perfect?

Wait, isn't he arrogant? Somewhat strikingly so, in some regards. Not that I dislike him; certainly he has a more understandable reason for mage bigotry than any templar we meet.

[aldien]

MissRedZelda wrote...

It just means he's vulnerable to being manipulated by the court. He'll just be king in name if Eamon is his advisor (and anyone who knows me knows how much I despise that f@#$er. The way he oushed poo Ali into being king, it's like he's interested in reulng through the guy. He's every bit an oppotunist as Loghain). He says he is ready, but really, he has no business being on the throne when there's someone who's been the real power behind the throne for going on five years now. Besides, according to the epilogues, he spends most of his time away from court.

I can see Fenris leading an underground slave rebellion in Tevintar.

I don't really have strong feelings concerning Loghain one way or another. I think he's complicated and somewhat true to a medieval tactician.

Agreed. Eamon is looking after his own interest. He has Ali removed from his house at an early age because his wife feels threatened *rolls eyes* can't stand that woman. At the time, he's nothing to the nobility, just another mouth to feed, a bastard and a small worry he might rise up one day and want to usurp his half brother. Then, during Landsmeet, Eamon stands there and talks to the warden like Ali isn't present. Alistair even says so. He is once again being disregarded. What he wants is never taken into consideration. It's politics and he is a pawn and everyone knows it.

I know some people have Alistair marry Anora. When I chose different dialogue options I actually felt sorry for the woman. She doesn't want to marry again and have to speak through a man. Why should she? If she is a good leader then let her be a leader. She's power hungry but that's usually what it takes to be a good ruler, everything else is idealistic and that gets you killed (as the king found out

See... Fenris would make a good leader. Maybe not the type of guy sitting up on a throne but someone teaching other people how to kill. He's so sexy it's painful.



I'd call Fenris passionately angry not arrogant I think his intelligence and the way he delivers  his words comes across as arrogance, but Fenris doesn't really have a high opinion of himself so... I don't think he's arrogant. Anyone else think he's arrogant? Just me? I don't know

[dracuella]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Wow. I must be a minority, the book only made me hate Loighain even more. I couldn't understand why he would fight to defend his brethren and friends, and then betray then year later. I understand it's because he hates Orlais, but . . . But he's still betraying his own countrymen!

So yeah. No sympathy from me whatsoever.

Hehe I should mention I only read the first book when I went back to replay, so the sympathy is based solely on the lore in the first one. He was always a hard man but in my own, private canon it's loosing Rowan that turns his heart to stone and the reason he can do the things he does.

Amirit wrote...

Alistair is not alone - Arl Eamon is his adviser, as well as other loyal noble families, mages represented by Wynn, elves, represented by elder and warden itself. Not to mention that from the talk before Landsmeet Alistair was ready for his king's duty. But nm.

Do you truly believe Fenris can be even a cameo in DA3?

I also think Alistair could be a great king, especially with the help of Arl Eamon. I don't think he would become a puppet king just because he has him for an advisor; I think he has his own ideas and convictions that he would rule by, that would set the path and then let the input of others simply be minor adjustments to this. He wasn't with me for so long without picking up any leadership skills

aldien wrote...  

I'd call Fenris passionately angry not arrogant I think his intelligence and the way he delivers his words comes across as arrogance, but Fenris doesn't really have a high opinion of himself so... I don't think he's arrogant. Anyone else think he's arrogant? Just me? I don't know

I did find him somewhat arrogant in some of the scenes, especially towards the city elves. There was this one comment (I can't atm. recall which one it was) but I distinctly remember thinking, "come down from your high horse, man!". It made me imagine him thinking something along the lines of, "Why don't you do something about yourselves and your situation! Look at me, I'm at least doing _something_. Pah!".

This was, however, during my first playthrough. In the second, I didn't as much think of him as arrogant as it just being his anger bubbling to the surface. Especially with Merrill, he get's his rage on whenever she's in the party  

I don't know if I should interpret it as if I've been tainted by my many hours spent looking longingly at this wonderful swordsman or if I on my initial reaction simply didn't know him and his background well enough to make assumptions about him. It could be either way, really. 

Modifié par dracuella, 19 août 2012 - 07:50 .

[aldien]

I'd like to add how I reconciled the situation with the kingly Alistair, then I promise I'll stop my Alistair ramblings for... a bit The thing is, Alistair pledged his life to becoming a grey warden first. To throw that to the side is kind of like saying it's second rate. It's not a very honorable thing to do. Not sure Duncan would approve. From what I can tell, Ali is all about honor and duty. The country isn't hurting for leadership. It has beome a pissing match and Eamon throws him in it head firt. Point is... he's pledged to a cause, a very important one that helps everyone regardless of status. Being king is a romantic notion and usually only helps the nobility. Yeah, he's a nice guy but the nobles interests always come first. Without their support the country just becomes deadlocked. Anyway, no one ever really mentions his duty to the grey wardens and the fact that it was his first real sworn responsibilty. It's usually whether or not he'd make a good king. Perhaps it should be more about making promises and not keeping them. My two very silly cents worth.

Fenris, I know for a fact wouldn't have this conflict. He'd simply say, this was my first responsibility and that's what I must see through to the end.

Dru, I think Fen is just violently angry. Merrill makes a good whipping horse apparantly.

Modifié par aldien, 19 août 2012 - 07:58 .

[Dutchess]

I think Fenris is not really arrogant when it comes to other elves, but he's more angry and frustrated. That is mostly caused by a lack of understanding. After a life as a slave he simply doesn't understand why people would be unhappy with freedom, why they would not treasure it. Freedom is everything to him, it has become his ultimate goal, and he struggles with the possibilities it provides.
He sees city elves and thinks he's had it far worse than they. So why would he feel sorry for them? They are already free, so they have what is most important.


by neonowls

[Ghost_Nappa]

@Dracuella: I don't know Loghain's heart doesnt turn fully into stone because he know's Rowan will have to marry Maric. I mean when he meets Anora's mother he learns to love again.
Thats the one thing I also liked about him that most people dont mention, he becomes one of those people who get passed the lost love and find a new love. If he didn't love the woman he wouldnt of made Anora or bring back all those roses for her. (Which  have to say I literally squealed at..then again I feel sympathy for Anora's mother and Rowan because they are two women he loves. Especially when he's around Alistair whose like a living remainder of Maric's infidelity. Who wouldn't be pissed at that.)

@Aldien: Yes Alistair seems more like the ideal king whom is popular with the masses...those are easily the best to manipulate and not do their duties..look at Maric the man didn't want to be king and spent weeks in the damn deep roads when he should of been watching out for his country. Story plot wise thats just ****ty. Plus with all the hype they are building up about the Theirin bloodline and dragons....don't care.

Plus we should really nix this talk about boy kings, disgraced traitors and Woman that rule.


As for fenris....ya'll took the words out of my mouth concerning his anger issues and freedom. He even does it towards Orana, who is basically a physical remainder of his past, yet they could of implemented in the game how he helps her get used to being free. But they didn't again due to time constaints....hell I would of gotten the impression she would of been an LI for him if you romance someone else or Izzy doesnt come back with the tome, or yougladly giftwrap her to the Arishok. I never regret that last part.




By Mur****a

[aldien]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

@Dracuella: I don't know Loghain's heart doesnt turn fully into stone because he know's Rowan will have to marry Maric. I mean when he meets Anora's mother he learns to love again.
Thats the one thing I also liked about him that most people dont mention, he becomes one of those people who get passed the lost love and find a new love. If he didn't love the woman he wouldnt of made Anora or bring back all those roses for her. (Which  have to say I literally squealed at..then again I feel sympathy for Anora's mother and Rowan because they are two women he loves. Especially when he's around Alistair whose like a living remainder of Maric's infidelity. Who wouldn't be pissed at that.)

@Aldien: Yes Alistair seems more like the ideal king whom is popular with the masses...those are easily the best to manipulate and not do their duties..look at Maric the man didn't want to be king and spent weeks in the damn deep roads when he should of been watching out for his country. Story plot wise thats just ****ty. Plus with all the hype they are building up about the Theirin bloodline and dragons....don't care.

Plus we should really nix this talk about boy kings, disgraced traitors and Woman that rule.


As for fenris....ya'll took the words out of my mouth concerning his anger issues and freedom. He even does it towards Orana, who is basically a physical remainder of his past, yet they could of implemented in the game how he helps her get used to being free. But they didn't again due to time constaints....hell I would of gotten the impression she would of been an LI for him if you romance someone else or Izzy doesnt come back with the tome, or yougladly giftwrap her to the Arishok. I never regret that last part.




By Mur****a

I squeee at this picture. Something sexy about Fenris protecting Hawke. Oh I know! I'm so old fashioned but I only think this about Fenris. I think it's nice to see him openly protecting his lover. One thing I did like is that last night when I was playing DAO, I noticed if the warden gets insulted Ali takes up for her. Wish Fenris had done that That aside, Fenris as a character would take up for Hawke. Pretty sure he wouldn't allow anyone to throw insults her way without challenging them.

Modifié par aldien, 19 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

So, hi. I lurk... I lurk *everywhere* and on occasion i comment so... Here i am commenting:

Fenris as a character would take up for Hawke.

I think if Hawke was in a life threatening situation, yes, Fenris would jump in in an instant. He's not going to let Hawke die, not in any situation. However, when it comes down to verbal insults i imagine Fenris wouldn't care very much.

He seems very... Indifferent in relation to verbal slander. Like in Hightown he tends not to care what his neighbors may be saying about him, he only cares that there's a chance there may be a lynch-mob on his doorstep.

When it comes to Fenris' state of mind on verbal insults i always imagine he's quite like Bishop from Neverwinter Nights 2, who says one of my favourite lines from any romantic interest ever to exist: "Don't defend her, she can do that herself."

In battle, yeah, i can see Fenris defending Hawke with his life. When it comes to insults? I can't imagine he would care much.

That's uh... My opinion anyway.

P.S. Hi. Oh wait, i said that already...... Uhm.... K.

[Dutchess]

Hi Sylvanpyxie!

(Ex-)lurkers are always welcome. I think you're right about Fenris. Fenris doesn't want to be cuddled (I'm not made of glass), so I think he will not tend to do it the other way around either. No matter what, he sees Hawke as a very capable person, somebody who can handle him/herself. In battle he is more than willing to lend a hand, but in the case of verbal battles he'll probably tend to let Hawke handle his/her own business. Because Hawke isn't made of glass either.

[CuriousArtemis]

 Teaching Fenris to write:
 

by Shaleene1 on DeviantArt

Modifié par motomotogirl, 19 août 2012 - 06:40 .

[dracuella]

motomotogirl wrote...

 Teaching Fenris to write:

by Shaleene1 on DeviantArt

Hahahaha I thought it was cute all the way but at the last one I went completely overboard and squeed and cried from laughter. How lucky we are that a gaming company such as Bioware exists? I know a lot of people have beef with Gaider but I think he's one hell of a writer and our love for Fenris bears witness to his talent.

[aldien]

You know I just can't get out my pom poms and yell hooray for BW. I'm too grumpy for that and rather cynical after playing the second and now the first game. Writing was better in the first and I noticed many of the same plots carried over from the original with minor details changed.

Fenris is a great character but he could have been handled better in my opinion. I know it was mostly down to time limitations but still... that is the sort of thing that reflects on the company in the end. So no pom poms for me but i will pass out cookies.

[Ghost_Nappa]

aldien wrote...

You know I just can't get out my pom poms and yell hooray for BW. I'm too grumpy for that and rather cynical after playing the second and now the first game. Writing was better in the first and I noticed many of the same plots carried over from the original with minor details changed.

Fenris is a great character but he could have been handled better in my opinion. I know it was mostly down to time limitations but still... that is the sort of thing that reflects on the company in the end. So no pom poms for me but i will pass out cookies.

Hurray for team cynical! If it doesnt reel me back with replay it aint worth the moola. *looks at the hundred times I replayed FFT)...brownies for anyone ho know what that abbreviation stands for*

[AbsoluteApril]

@Aldien - I was so upset by the landsmeet break up too. (if you didn't read all the ending options, then skip the rest of this as it's full o' spoilers) - but he redeamed himself during the final approach to the archdemon, professing his true love for the warden and making an apology, then he sacraficed himself for her, for the grey wardens and for Ferelden. I cried for over 30 min, all through the credits. It was the best game ever. (also did a PT with Logain redeaming himself, he has some interesting dialogue if you take him back to Ostagar).

Ghost_Nappa wrote...
 *looks at the hundred times I replayed FFT)

Final Fantasy Tactics?
I loved that game.

Speaking of Final Fantasy, I just started XIII (after it's been sitting here for a year) and they took out the turn based fighting? what the.. grrr. Anywyas, segway into a silly art just finished since there's a nod to FF7:

(link: http://absoluteapril...enris-322140338)

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 19 août 2012 - 10:20 .

[Dutchess]

aldien wrote...

You know I just can't get out my pom poms and yell hooray for BW. I'm too grumpy for that and rather cynical after playing the second and now the first game. Writing was better in the first and I noticed many of the same plots carried over from the original with minor details changed.

Fenris is a great character but he could have been handled better in my opinion. I know it was mostly down to time limitations but still... that is the sort of thing that reflects on the company in the end. So no pom poms for me but i will pass out cookies.

I can hardly believe that coming from you. In my memory you were always defending DA2 and could not be bothered to try DAO. Not that it's bad that you have now gained a different perspective. I agree with you. The story of DAO was far more succesfull in drawing me in. The first time I played Act I of DA2 I felt like I was drowning in side quests and just went to random locations with a quest marker and talked to random people with a quest marker without actually knowing what quest they were part of. The only thing I still loved about the game (and that was the saving grace of it in my opinion) are the companions. Especially Fenris of course. Although the frustrations of a lack of love scenes and how the time skips were handled still remain. Ah well, at least the huge empty spaces the game left gave me the inspiration to start writing to fill it up, so it was not entirely a bad thing.

@ moto: the Fenris learning to write is hilarious! Apples and sunshine...

[dracuella]

aldien wrote...

You know I just can't get out my pom poms and yell hooray for BW. I'm too grumpy for that and rather cynical after playing the second and now the first game. Writing was better in the first and I noticed many of the same plots carried over from the original with minor details changed. 

Fenris is a great character but he could have been handled better in my opinion. I know it was mostly down to time limitations but still... that is the sort of thing that reflects on the company in the end. So no pom poms for me but i will pass out cookies.

Yes, I, too, feel that they cut quite a few corners when they made the sequel and that it is quite obvious they removed a lot of planned content from the game. I will, however, venture the claim that this has more to do with, as you said, the pressure EA put on Bioware to finish the game in less than half the time they put into DAO. And I know what that feels like. When I'm not lurking the forums, I work as a programmer in a company that makes software for products and goods handling in DIY centres. And I don't have count on the number of times in my career when my boss(es) has told me that my assignment had to be finished yesterday and therefore I, and I quote, "don't need to make it a gold solution, bronze is just fine". Meaning just hack something together that works at first glance so we can tell the customer it's done. 

Something like that is what I imagine the crew at Bioware has experienced. I'm not saying EA is evil and deliberately forced them to turn in an unfinished product. I'm just saying when there's a project plan that's obviously too tight, you do what you must to get things done in time. Even if you're unhappy with the end result. And I must admit, in my personal, professional opinion, I'm surprised and amazed they turned in such a well-rounded and bugfree product as they did. If I compare DA2 with many of the other games I've played, it has close to no crashes and no deal-breaker bugs. Yes, there were problems with the game import, yes there were quests that needed patches. But these were all minor issues and when I think of the enormous effort they put into shipping the game on time, I am really impressed. I have nothing but the greatest respect for those guys.

So aldien, Ghost, I can't join Team Cynical, I'm afraid.. But I will dig into those cookies nonetheless 

[SurrealSadi]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

@Aldien - I was so upset by the landsmeet break up too. (if you didn't read all the ending options, then skip the rest of this as it's full o' spoilers) - but he redeamed himself during the final approach to the archdemon, professing his true love for the warden and making an apology, then he sacraficed himself for her, for the grey wardens and for Ferelden. I cried for over 30 min, all through the credits. It was the best game ever. (also did a PT with Logain redeaming himself, he has some interesting dialogue if you take him back to Ostagar).

Ghost_Nappa wrote...
 *looks at the hundred times I replayed FFT)

Final Fantasy Tactics?
I loved that game.

Speaking of Final Fantasy, I just started XIII (after it's been sitting here for a year) and they took out the turn based fighting? what the.. grrr. Anywyas, segway into a silly art just finished since there's a nod to FF7:

(link: http://absoluteapril...enris-322140338)

Oh god, FF13? I returned that to GameStop. I got to one point where all you can really do is GRIND, and my brain and love of FF games died. I adore the FF series, but I don't want to spend 40 hours GRINDING away just to be able to beat the flarking game. And that's apparently what you HAVE to do.