55378 réponses à ce sujet

[okiness]

It's so hard for me to understand or comprehend this argument. His suffering goes beyond man or woman. He is a man, who is a slave. Thought of as less than human. Not an other, not a woman, just an abused person treated like less than a person. Using his relationship with Hawke is a moot point, because Hawke can be a man or a woman.

Let me explain, the entire concept of being a woman as I'm sure most of you understand, is a complicated one in media. When you create a universe such as you do in Dragon Age, you're creating an entire new set of standards for gender roles. We hear many things that suggest, In Orleisian territory women are just pretty figures, but a strong woman can rule. All women are respected in Thedas (sans the qunari) AT LEAST enough to be members of governing bodies and high over arching figures in the Templars and the Chantry.

When Fenris is confiding in Hawke, it is him telling a story of deep abuse. Abuse is not something you can mitigate to gender. The oppression of a people for being A PEOPLE is different than abuse or subjugation. Being a woman in patriarchy means that you could be born into a world where if you were a man you could be the king, but instead you're a woman so be satisfied being married off. Being a woman in patriarchy means that by default you expect to be less, for your gender. As a slave? It doesn't matter what you come out as. Son of a slave, daughter of a slave- you're a slave. The idea that we're suppoed to 'understand' Fenris is not the point. Hawke doesn't fix Fenris' problems- h/she gives him the comfort of knowing that despite the scars he carries, someone loves him. Someone cares.

It doesn't erase abuse. Hell, even if Tevinter WERE a society based in gender roles that would make Fenris even less of that stereotype. He was a MAN who won a fighting tournament and due to this, recieved a scar so deep it will never ever heal. You can't compare the pain, loss of dignity, subdued happiness, and horror that Fenris saw and call it distinctly 'woman'. There is nothing distinctly woman about this. If Fenris was meant to be an allegory for a woman, he would be a woman. David Gaider wrote him with so many deep things in mind, but as a woman? No, this represents nothing like that. Gaider wrote the story of a man who was born with nothing, won the 'reward' of harsher and harsher abuse and then escaped through a fluke, murder, and his own awakening happened only by chance. Fenris is not a woman struggling in a man's world- Fenris is a slave struggling in a world ruled by people who think they're entitled to own flesh and blood because they have power. If you kill your wife, even in ancient society's, just to use her for her BLOOD, you would be prosecuted or punished. Not so in this case. Fenris is subhuman to the slavers. His body and life mean nothing.

You'd do better to equate ANDERS to a woman, man born as he is fighting against a society who tells him it's wrong just to live? That he should be shut away forever in a 'tower' and made to be subservient? That is a clear parallel with woman hood. Not the horror of slavery. That is beyond what I or many of us will experience, especially because of the gender we had no part in choosing.

Completely, completely different.

Now have some Fenris x Hawke fanfiction, on the toasty M Scale.
http://www.fanfictio.../1/In-the-night

[aldien]

maanto wrote...

Forgive me if I'm late to the discussion. I admit I have just skimmed this thread for parts which may be relevant to my post and couldn't find anything. Also this is my first post, and I appologize for its lengthiness. I've highlighted main points below.

But has anyone ever considered Fenris' story to be an allegory for being a woman in a mostly man-controlled world?

There are points in his story were he speaks about himself and his experiences in the same way that any opressed person, be it by race or gender, may speak of themselves.

Given Fenris also exhibits agressive behavior at his former master, and is very belligerent at times, but he still seems to be controlled by his situation until the conclusion of his story. Even then it seems he is not sure that he will ever truly be free of his past.
He questionis himself constantly, choosing inaction over action as a result of his fear of failure/submission.

To the way in which Fenris tries to make Hawke understand what it is like being a slave, at which Hawke can only guess - i.e. Hawke can never understand what it is like to be a slave because he has always been free - in the same way a man can never truly understand what it is like to be a woman, this was probably the strongest message to me personally, to realize that I will likewise never truly understand, but at least I will have an idea of what social chains women are bound by compared to the freedoms that are offered to men.

Very interesting. This is a wonderful post.

I do not believe Fenris' story to be an allegory for being a woman in a mostly man-controlled world simply because he was written by a man and... I don't think he had women in mind when he wrote the character. Before someone shouts at me, I am not saying that a man lacks the ability to sympathise with a woman. But in the end, no matter how you spin it, a man can never know what it is to be a woman and vice versa. 

Given Fenris also exhibits agressive behavior at his former master, and is very belligerent at times, but he still seems to be controlled by his situation until the conclusion of his story. Even then it seems he is not sure that he will ever truly be free of his past.
He questionis himself constantly, choosing inaction over action as a result of his fear of failure/submission 

I agree about him being controlled by his situation and that is one of the most infuriating aspects of his character. He wants to be free yet he allows his mind to remain chained. Hmmm... but he does act. He contacts Varania and he goes after Hadrianna. With the latter he quesitons why he killed her but I wouldn't say he is idle and I think Fenris risks failure all of the time simply by not submitting to Danarius. 

 Hawke can never understand what it is like to be a slave because he has always been free 

Hawke can be a he or she. If Hawke is a she is Fenris still seen as an allegory for being a woman? I think some of it comes down to if you see Fenris more feminine than masculine. That's just my opinion and in no way am I saying anyone does that. But I do have to wonder because it is implied Hawke is a he in this case. For me personally I see him as a great partner for female Hawke. What is actually written, I think, was intended to be a homosexual man and that in itself comes with oppression. To objectify Fenris as female is kind of like saying he can't be a homosexual male or that homosexual men are like women. I don't think that is the intent but it is feeling one sided.

Modifié par aldien, 04 avril 2013 - 10:06 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Well I don't think it is really about Fenris being masculine or feminine, although he does display traditionally (negative) feminine traits, like passivity and subservience. 

I think it is more about Fenris' position in the narrative and as a character in the game; as a companion, and more specifically a LI, he is in the object position (position traditionally held by women in a narrative) while the player is in the subject position (masculine), and can act upon Fenris via Hawke (whose gender doesn't necessarily matter). 

Of all the LIs, Fenris is the only one who completely lacks agency. He comes from a life of slavery, or powerlessness. So like Tevinter/Danarius represents Patriarchy, and Fenris represents Woman.

Agree with aldie; awesome post; it is really exciting to get to talk about Fenris like this 


Also agree however (and negating what I just said) that he isn't completely idle. He does contact Varania on his own volition. Maybe that is symbolic of his social emancipation??

Modifié par motomotogirl, 04 avril 2013 - 10:15 .

[aldien]

motomotogirl wrote...

Well I don't think it is really about Fenris being masculine or feminine, although he does display traditionally (negative) feminine traits, like passivity and subservience. 

I think it is more about Fenris' position in the narrative and as a character in the game; as a companion, and more specifically a LI, he is in the object position (position traditionally held by women in a narrative) while the player is in the subject position (masculine), and can act upon Fenris via Hawke (whose gender doesn't necessarily matter). 

Of all the LIs, Fenris is the only one who completely lacks agency. He comes from a life of slavery, or powerlessness. So like Tevinter/Danarius represents Patriarchy, and Fenris represents Woman.

Agree with aldie; awesome post; it is really exciting to get to talk about Fenris like this 


Also agree however (and negating what I just said) that he isn't completely idle. He does contact Varania on his own volition. Maybe that is symbolic of his social emancipation??

His past story is one of passivity and subservience. But I was referring to his present situation rather than his history.. There's nothing passive about ripping a man's heart out. Once he is free of Danarius (though still on the run) he no longer fills the historical role of wench. But why is he even falling into that category? Are you telling me male slaves throughout history were not passive or subservient? How do those traits somehow equal woman? The conclusion is that Fenris is seen by some as being a male representation of female inequality. Can anyone say mysogyny??? Or is it just me? He can't simply be a man with a horrific past?

while the player is in the subject position (masculine)

Why? Isn't Hawke neutral until the player chooses a preference?

Is all of this about our own social prejudices and those that we have been subjected to rather than what is literally given in the game? I do not find Fenris that easy to define. But I appreciate that people find what they need or what they can rationalize within the character. It's all very interesting.

Modifié par aldien, 04 avril 2013 - 11:50 .

[Dutchess]

okiness wrote...

It's so hard for me to understand or comprehend this argument. His suffering goes beyond man or woman. He is a man, who is a slave. Thought of as less than human. Not an other, not a woman, just an abused person treated like less than a person. Using his relationship with Hawke is a moot point, because Hawke can be a man or a woman.

*awesome post snip*

Thank you, that was pretty much what I wanted to say. I don't think you can compare slavery so easily to a "free" social minortiy. Fenris has lived a life for many years that was not his own. His life was the property of somebody else, and that means he was not allowed to make any decisions at all, not even small ones. He could never be his own person. When he finally runs, he struggles immensely with freedom and how to handle it: "tell me, what does one do when you stop running?" 
His struggle is made even more difficult by the loss of his memory. The ritual wiped every other part of his identity away, so that all that he was, was a slave. The part of him being a brother, a son, was lost. I think a large part of Fenris' conflict consists of finding out who and what you really are, and what you want to do with your life, and I don't feel that that translates very well to the position of women. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Well the correlation isn't really a literal one; obviously Fenris isn't a woman. Just if you know a little bit about fem theory (and a "little bit" is about as much as I know), the comparison is pretty neat. Just think about Foucault's ideas about power and its pervasiveness and how Danarius could even serve as an agent of power, and Fenris' helplessness in the face of power, which mimics Woman's helplessness in the face of Power/Patriarchy (and also playing with de Beauvoir's notion of Woman as Other).

You could say the comparison breaks down a little though because Fenris does become an active person, but in true Patriarchy, no matter how much the person (not necessarily literally a woman) acts, it's impossible to overcome Power.

And the fact that Fenris needs Hawke/the player to act also complicates things. Is Hawke not also an agent of Power?

[okiness]

Spent the better part of my early teenage to young adulthood researching it, and the premise of comparing someone in a subhuman situation to a woman, especially if the subhuman is a man? Offends me a little. So instead of talking about it anymore, have a really painstaking look at this WIP I'm doing. It's a fullbody piece so it'll. . . take awhile

[GeminiParadox]

I'm interested in feminist theory myself, but I never thought his story paralleled being a woman in a patriarchal society. There is a big difference between a free women who is confined to certain life choices and an enslaved person of any gender. The closest parallel is to compare Fenris to an African-American slave in American history. The segregation of the elves can be likened to the segregation of African-Americans after emancipation. Even as a feminist woman, I wouldn't compare the horrors Fenris experienced to my life as a woman.

[Hazegurl]

GeminiParadox wrote...

I'm interested in feminist theory myself, but I never thought his story paralleled being a woman in a patriarchal society. There is a big difference between a free women who is confined to certain life choices and an enslaved person of any gender. The closest parallel is to compare Fenris to an African-American slave in American history. The segregation of the elves can be likened to the segregation of African-Americans after emancipation. Even as a feminist woman, I wouldn't compare the horrors Fenris experienced to my life as a woman.

You beat me to it. Just switch mage with white people and Fenris with a black man and you'll probably gain some sort understanding of that conflict.

[aldien]

And these debates made me take up drinking



by: 
~swaja 


I feel your pain squishy Fen...

Modifié par aldien, 06 avril 2013 - 11:18 .

[Renmiri1]

You gals and guys saw the oldspice add tweeted by Mike Laidlaw ?

https://t.co/bh5L0aasEy

Modifié par Renmiri1, 06 avril 2013 - 11:33 .

[aldien]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You gals and guys saw the oldspice add tweeted by Mike Laidlaw ?

https://t.co/bh5L0aasEy

I'm on a horse.... ROFL! That tickled me! Best thing that has happened to me in a month. The ending is priceless!!

Thank you for sharing that. 

Modifié par aldien, 06 avril 2013 - 11:54 .

[okiness]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9181176/1/

I write a lot of fic that I don't share and recently I wrote Hawke being made tranquil and it was so sad I had to write the above fanfiction, which is Hawke pregnancy fic because God I torture everyone everywhere sobs

[evil_blond_goth]

Is it so very wrong of me to have a small fanatsy about Fenris and fem mage Hawke indulging in a spot of the naughty mage and the templar interigator?!  hmm Fenris in Templar armour.   

I'd like to see him have the oppotunity to feel like he has some form of control over his life, to break some of that taught/inforced subserviance.
 
I might be wrong in some peoples minds but I saw him take the first few steps in doing so. The fact that he openly speaks his mind about his views on Mages, that fact that his words have passion, even if at times it verges on anger and contempt. Sure sometimes his unwaverin hatred/fear bugged me as a Pro Mage player but I liked the charater non the less, just as I liked Cullen.
 
Love to see him/Hawke in DA3

Modifié par evil_blond_goth, 08 avril 2013 - 07:19 .

[evil_blond_goth]

okiness wrote...

It's so hard for me to understand or comprehend this argument. His suffering goes beyond man or woman. He is a man, who is a slave. Thought of as less than human. Not an other, not a woman, just an abused person treated like less than a person. Using his relationship with Hawke is a moot point, because Hawke can be a man or a woman.

Let me explain, the entire concept of being a woman as I'm sure most of you understand, is a complicated one in media. When you create a universe such as you do in Dragon Age, you're creating an entire new set of standards for gender roles. We hear many things that suggest, In Orleisian territory women are just pretty figures, but a strong woman can rule. All women are respected in Thedas (sans the qunari) AT LEAST enough to be members of governing bodies and high over arching figures in the Templars and the Chantry.

When Fenris is confiding in Hawke, it is him telling a story of deep abuse. Abuse is not something you can mitigate to gender. The oppression of a people for being A PEOPLE is different than abuse or subjugation. Being a woman in patriarchy means that you could be born into a world where if you were a man you could be the king, but instead you're a woman so be satisfied being married off. Being a woman in patriarchy means that by default you expect to be less, for your gender. As a slave? It doesn't matter what you come out as. Son of a slave, daughter of a slave- you're a slave. The idea that we're suppoed to 'understand' Fenris is not the point. Hawke doesn't fix Fenris' problems- h/she gives him the comfort of knowing that despite the scars he carries, someone loves him. Someone cares.

It doesn't erase abuse. Hell, even if Tevinter WERE a society based in gender roles that would make Fenris even less of that stereotype. He was a MAN who won a fighting tournament and due to this, recieved a scar so deep it will never ever heal. You can't compare the pain, loss of dignity, subdued happiness, and horror that Fenris saw and call it distinctly 'woman'. There is nothing distinctly woman about this. If Fenris was meant to be an allegory for a woman, he would be a woman. David Gaider wrote him with so many deep things in mind, but as a woman? No, this represents nothing like that. Gaider wrote the story of a man who was born with nothing, won the 'reward' of harsher and harsher abuse and then escaped through a fluke, murder, and his own awakening happened only by chance. Fenris is not a woman struggling in a man's world- Fenris is a slave struggling in a world ruled by people who think they're entitled to own flesh and blood because they have power. If you kill your wife, even in ancient society's, just to use her for her BLOOD, you would be prosecuted or punished. Not so in this case. Fenris is subhuman to the slavers. His body and life mean nothing.

You'd do better to equate ANDERS to a woman, man born as he is fighting against a society who tells him it's wrong just to live? That he should be shut away forever in a 'tower' and made to be subservient? That is a clear parallel with woman hood. Not the horror of slavery. That is beyond what I or many of us will experience, especially because of the gender we had no part in choosing.

Completely, completely different.

Now have some Fenris x Hawke fanfiction, on the toasty M Scale.
http://www.fanfictio.../1/In-the-night

Well said

[evil_blond_goth]

Aroihkin wrote...

Phew, you guys didn't run me out of town yet.

Height preference as just a preference is fine.  I've seen people draw/write some really big m!Hawkes for just that reason.

BBH pg 3 is done:


Black Black Heart page 3

Ohh I am loving this, if you ever have time, I'd love to see a few strips with Fenris and a Female Mage Hawke, the misure of love/atrraction versus fear/dislike would be good.

[ogtrplganggrl]

Hello everyone!

When DAII came out I was super excited to romance Anders. I loved him in Awakening and couldn't wait to finally get the chance to romance him. And I, like many, was stunned and saddened when emo!Anders was what we got... not to mention the blowing up the Chantry... Even still I continued to romance Anders in all my playthroughs. Occasionally I would sleep with Fenris but I never gave his romance a real chance.

Until last weekend. Now I'm in love!!!

Fenris is too wonderful for words, and his romance was incredibly well done. After trying him once I will not be romancing anyone else.

I'm a late in life Fenris fangirl but just wanted to say hi!

[aldien]

ogtrplganggrl wrote...

Hello everyone!

When DAII came out I was super excited to romance Anders. I loved him in Awakening and couldn't wait to finally get the chance to romance him. And I, like many, was stunned and saddened when emo!Anders was what we got... not to mention the blowing up the Chantry... Even still I continued to romance Anders in all my playthroughs. Occasionally I would sleep with Fenris but I never gave his romance a real chance.

Until last weekend. Now I'm in love!!!

Fenris is too wonderful for words, and his romance was incredibly well done. After trying him once I will not be romancing anyone else.

I'm a late in life Fenris fangirl but just wanted to say hi!

It's better late than never!

I romanced Anders too my first two pt's. I didn't even know about Fenris until the 3rd pt and then I was hooked. Recently, I finished the female romances and although I do find Isabela funny, as far as romance goes I didn't find it rewarding. Merrill... just don't get me started. She has the worst romance in my opinion. Now I can safely say Fenris has the best romance in the game. For me, Anders just ends up too creepy and it feels like he uses Hawke. Maybe that was not the intention of the writer., Doesn't matter now. Hawke and Fenris all the way.

Modifié par aldien, 09 avril 2013 - 05:13 .

[Dutchess]

ogtrplganggrl wrote...

Hello everyone!

When DAII came out I was super excited to romance Anders. I loved him in Awakening and couldn't wait to finally get the chance to romance him. And I, like many, was stunned and saddened when emo!Anders was what we got... not to mention the blowing up the Chantry... Even still I continued to romance Anders in all my playthroughs. Occasionally I would sleep with Fenris but I never gave his romance a real chance.

Until last weekend. Now I'm in love!!!

Fenris is too wonderful for words, and his romance was incredibly well done. After trying him once I will not be romancing anyone else.

I'm a late in life Fenris fangirl but just wanted to say hi!

Welcome! Congratulations on discovering the loveliness that is Fenris. Did you friend- or rivalmance him? Are you going to try the other one? They're both pretty good, although aldy here is a softie and doesn't dare to poke Fenris occasionally.:innocent: Don't worry, he can handle it.


FendersFAN

[Fall Deere]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that originally loved Anders (from Awakening) only to find that he's a jerk-face unworthy of my attention (not to mention a terrorist...) and then run into Fenris's arms and be swept off my feet... or slammed into a wall, I guess. <33

I've been stalking this thread for a while and finally got the guts to post...

[Dutchess]

Fall Deere wrote...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that originally loved Anders (from Awakening) only to find that he's a jerk-face unworthy of my attention (not to mention a terrorist...) and then run into Fenris's arms and be swept off my feet... or slammed into a wall, I guess. <33

I've been stalking this thread for a while and finally got the guts to post...

Welcome to you as well then. Once you've tried Fenris, you'll never go back to Anders. What is your favorite Fenris romance? Rivalry or friendship?

[Fall Deere]

Anders...? Who is this Anders of which you speak?

In my "headcannon," Sarcastic Female Mage Hawke in a rivalmance with Fenris is perfect. <33

See, my FemMageHawke is really sheltered as far as demons, blood mages, etc when she first comes to Kirkwall... She strongly believes in Mage Freedom, but after meeting Fenris, she realizes slowly that not all mages are like her, her sister, and her father. She still believes in Mage freedom, but with the understanding that mages can be dangerous as well and maybe having someone keeping an eye on them isn't a horrible thing (as long as they're not being oppressed).

She and Fenris end up balancing each other out. Fenris comes to understand not all mages are evil and Hawke realizes not all mages are good... especially after stupid Anders goes and ruins all of Hawke's hard work by blowing up the Chantry. >.<

I have an entire story plotted out in my head about Fenris and my Hawke. XD I want to write it, but...

[Hazegurl]

ogtrplganggrl wrote...

Hello everyone!

When DAII came out I was super excited to romance Anders. I loved him in Awakening and couldn't wait to finally get the chance to romance him. And I, like many, was stunned and saddened when emo!Anders was what we got... not to mention the blowing up the Chantry... Even still I continued to romance Anders in all my playthroughs. Occasionally I would sleep with Fenris but I never gave his romance a real chance.

Until last weekend. Now I'm in love!!!

Fenris is too wonderful for words, and his romance was incredibly well done. After trying him once I will not be romancing anyone else.

I'm a late in life Fenris fangirl but just wanted to say hi!

I agree. Anders was so cool in Awakening and I actually had him in mind for my Male Hawke. But he went downhill, first in the looks category then personality and everything else followed. I can't imagine anyone else for my Male Hawke than Fenris. He challenges him and isn't quick to tackle him down over a few flirty lines, the romance was well done despite the limitations (not being able to confront him for three years, seriously?). But finally making up with him was enough to make me forgive the writers, the scenes are all just so well done with him.

[aldien]

Fall Deere wrote...

Anders...? Who is this Anders of which you speak?

In my "headcannon," Sarcastic Female Mage Hawke in a rivalmance with Fenris is perfect. <33

See, my FemMageHawke is really sheltered as far as demons, blood mages, etc when she first comes to Kirkwall... She strongly believes in Mage Freedom, but after meeting Fenris, she realizes slowly that not all mages are like her, her sister, and her father. She still believes in Mage freedom, but with the understanding that mages can be dangerous as well and maybe having someone keeping an eye on them isn't a horrible thing (as long as they're not being oppressed).

She and Fenris end up balancing each other out. Fenris comes to understand not all mages are evil and Hawke realizes not all mages are good... especially after stupid Anders goes and ruins all of Hawke's hard work by blowing up the Chantry. >.<

I have an entire story plotted out in my head about Fenris and my Hawke. XD I want to write it, but...

But...? 

Ren I'm just not a meanie like you  I will give it a go again soon. Maybe I won't cringe so much this time. I just feel like I'm hurting his feelings and since he has had such a hard life I find aggro difficult. *shrugs*

My ideal match with Fenris is sarcastic mage  FemHawke as well but I always friendmance. I like to watch him smile.

I've found that I prefer MHawke to be a two-handed swordsman. He's sarcastic and sweet but tough as nails. I finished the Merrill/MHawke rivalmance. It is much better than friendmance and makes more sense. I still don't like her as a match for MHawke but at least the rivalmance made me feel something more for Merrill than pure hate.

Modifié par aldien, 10 avril 2013 - 10:23 .

[Fall Deere]

But the way I was writing it was a HUGE undertaking. I had planned to write every. single. scene. from DAII from my Hawke's Point Of View. Instead, I'm working on writing a diary kept by Hawke. In the game, she makes a comment about keeping a journal/diary, right?

In that story, I have it figured that Hawke met Anders first and kinda fell for him because he was a follow apostate who might have slightly reminded her of her father at first. However, when she later saw Fenris... Anders who? Haha. Later, though, when Fenris leaves her, being extremely hurt, she turns to Anders and nearly sleeps with him... until that extremely horrible comment about Fenris being a beast or monster or something and turning on her. I'll have to find a YouTube video of that scene again... I haven't actually played through the story in my head yet. lol. Anyways, after that comment, she realizes that even though he left her, Hawke still feels something for Fenris and won't betray him, even if she believes Fenris no longer loves her.

Yeah, I have a pretty complex story in my head that I haven't been able to share until now. XD

I'm considering rivalmancing Merrill with a Male Hawke... There's no possible way I could friendmance her without cringing constantly. I strongly disagree with her most of the time and rarely have a friendship with her. Blood magic... >.< I'll probably never be able to romance anyone but Fenris ever again, though. He's just too awesome. Or ridiculously awesome as another one of my favorite elves would say.

By the way, I'm pretty sure Fenris smiles a bit even in a rivalmance. I've only played a rivalmance one and a half times, but I could swear he smiled at least twice... I could be wrong, though. Mostly, I've just watched YouTube videos. XD I don't have the time to play DAII much anymore...