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The Official Fenris Discussion thread


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#54701
renfrees

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*snip*

There are a good number of Mages we meet, and play, that are contrary to Fenris' views. Wynne and all of the Mages of the Circle and the Mages of the Grey Wardens who fought against the Blight. Possibly The Hero of Fereldan, who, if he/she didn't give their life to stop the Archdemon went on to stop The Mother and possibly other heroic deeds. Bethany, who if not killed defending her mother joins the Wardens, Hawke's father who made a life for his family without enslaving others, Hawke's many possibly heroic deeds, including helping Fenris and Anders who helped stop The Mother and risks his life and freedom healing perfect strangers in Dark Town.

 

P.S. I was serious about my first question. Why is Fenris the only DAII character with a theme song?

And how many of these "good" mages Fenris personally meets? Hawke or Bethany? That looks more like exception, if I were him. You're judging him from a player's perspective, having all that knowledge available to you; not from his own.

 

I don't remember the theme song answer ever specified.



#54702
Lythinae

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Fenris hates every Mage Everywhere because one population of free Mages in one country misuse their power. If his anger where concentrated on Blood Mages then I would be more sympathetic but he desires EVERY Mage to be treated no better than he was just for being born as they are.


But that one country is his sole experience of what mages can do. He isn't advocating slavery (because as crap as it may be, the Circle isn't slavery) or death, but control because he's had first hand experience of what can happen when mages are completely free.
 
 

That was entirly his choice. He was openly hostile to both Anders and Merrill from the begining. If he had set aside his prejudices he could have found some common ground in that he and Anders both dislike Blood Magic and a common history as an Elf with Merrill.

 

Right from the beginning, Anders treats him as less than human - why should he be the one to put things (which come from a lifetime of abuse) aside, when no one expects Anders to do the same thing?

He doesn't have much of a common history with Merril, not really. He even says this, that it's not his history. Most of his identity is tied to his past as a slave, not so much as an elf. Any cultural ties he may have had would have been lost anyway, post ritual.  And I'm not really sure why he should be obligated to, either.  Because they're both elves?  The blood magic issue is a fairly big block, and he thinks she has thrown everything away for something that is useless.
 
 

Don't get me wrong, I like Fenris and his treatment at the hands of the Magisters was inexcusable. I understand his feelings towards Tevinter and even Blood Mages in general but his hatred of Mages everywhere who have done nothing to him is unwarranted


See, I see those two things as somewhat contradictory. His only experience with free mages *is* Tevinter. It might be an extreme example, or a not going to happen anywhere else example, but it's the only one he knows. Every mage he meets will get compared to that until he can trust otherwise, which is a not completely unrealistic stance (it might not be nice, or fair but I do think it's an understandable reaction). Especially given how long it takes him to trust and make friends with others.
 

There are a good number of Mages we meet, and play, that are contrary to Fenris' views ...


I was referring mostly to DA2 and the ones that he would have interacted with (Fenris meeting Wynne would have been interesting, though and i do wish there was more direct overlap). And for almost every one, you can counter with someone who does pretty nasty ****. Like Quentin. And Orsino, who is doing pretty much what Meredith accuses him of.

I generally don't count the player character, since you be a spectacularly not nice person, but not get called out for it (ah, resources).

 

I would argue than many of the Blood Mages we meet throughout the games were pushed down that road by the Templars. It was not their goal to enslave others but to survive. I see them as no different than Fenris who freely admitted that he too slaughtered his way to freedom.


A lot of them are.  Those ones (I think Trask's daughter could be used an example) aren't really any different, in that they've done bad things to stay free. There's also plenty who do it for less noble reasons, and it's not completely unwarranted to be afraid of those and since any mage can turn to blood magic, you have no way of knowing which ones aren't going to use it against you.

Like I said, I think it's sad that he gets very little fan empathy, especially give his fairly horrific back story (other reasons aside, people don't seem to look beyond EW BAD MAGES, without really looking deeper.  Do most people play mages, and therefore take it personally? mostly for funs, retorical question), and I think his romance adds a lot to understanding him better. 
 

P.S. I was serious about my first question. Why is Fenris the only DAII character with a theme song?


Because he's just that damn awesome ;)
 
 

Is it hate or really fear? I don't think it is anger so much as I think it is fear. Is he really different from person who would kill a spider because it was a spider? If we asked do you think that person really hated that spider or killed it because it is something they fear?


Definitely fear (tho really a bit of both). One of the first things that hit me was how similar his reactions are to fear aggression in animals (particularly dogs and horses, but that's primarily where my experience is). It's also not dissimilar to PTSD, which I think is totally relevant (and has been pointed out before)


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#54703
Dutchess

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That was entirly his choice. He was openly hostile to both Anders and Merrill from the begining. If he had set aside his prejudices he could have found some common ground in that he and Anders both dislike Blood Magic and a common history as an Elf with Merrill.

 

Why would he try to find common ground with a blood mage and abomination? They have already proven they are the bad kind of mages, giving in to temptation, taking more power, dealing with demons. What's left to salvage from that? That Anders likes cats and Merrill loves rainbows? They have shown that they are weak and should not be trusted. Fenris isn't going to play nice for the sake of politeness then.

 

As far as hostility goes, I'd say Anders is usually the one who is going in a conversation full force, intending to sway Fenris to the "cause" of mages. Anders is not looking for common ground at all and is often very confrontational. That's not going to make Fenris any milder either. This banter pretty much sums most of their conversations up:

Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the mages here?

Fenris: No.

Anders: They aren't what you saw in Tevinter.

Fenris: The moment they are free, mages will make themselves magisters.

Anders: They're slaves! You should want to help them.

Fenris: I don't.

 

I'll give you Fenris' attitude towards Merrill. He can be very vicious and the vehemency of his reactions are not always warranted. But aside from them both having pointy ears he has no common ground whatsoever with Merrill. Fenris is desperate for a place to belong, to have a family and be accepted  by people who love him. Merrill had all that with her clan and she has thrown it away to mess with an old, dangerous mirror. There is no way Fenris understands that or sympathizes with her as a result.

Merrill talks to him of the plight of the city elves as the plight of "their people", while Fenris has escaped from slavery and years of abuse that would probably make Alienage life seem decent. Again, why would he sympathize with that? He fought and ran for years for his freedom, and these elves were born with it and yet they throw it away by living in slums and not doing anything to improve their lives. Of course this is overly simplified reasoning from Fenris, because with all the racism it's not easy for elves to rise. But he sees all these free people not appreciating what they have, not realizing how precious it is that their lives are their own.

 

Everything else has pretty much been said in other excellent posts already. :) I'm glad it was already pointed out that Fenris doesn't really hate mages. He is extremely mistrustful of them, and that stems from fear. But he's not stomping on mages like they're spiders and yelling "kill it! KILL IT!!!" He is not advocating executing all mages or making them all Tranquil. He is pro Circle, pro supervision and control over magic.

 

Time for art:

fenris_by_lynxfelidae-d8bwm2h.jpg

LynxFelidae

 

stars_gazing_by_ekocentric-d7uqm0s.jpg

ekocentric


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#54704
Lythinae

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I'm glad it was already pointed out that Fenris doesn't really hate mages. He is extremely mistrustful of them, and that stems from fear. But he's not stomping on mages like they're spiders and yelling "kill it! KILL IT!!!" He is not advocating executing all mages or making them all Tranquil. He is pro Circle, pro supervision and control over magic.


It's probably worth noting that the Hawke is the only reason he has anything to do with Anders and Merril. Pretty sure that if it was just up to Fenris, he'd have nothing to do with mages, at all. He doesn't make any attempted to hand them over to the Templars, despite Sebastian's comments.

But it's not completely unreasonable to say Fenris hates mages (either on an individual level, or as a general concept). I'm pretty sure he habours a good deal of anger/hate/fear towards them. I just think ohnoes he's anti-mage is a very simplistic way of looking at it, and ignores the root cause.

And it's also like, well yeah? Wouldn't you if you were him?

#54705
nightscrawl

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It's probably worth noting that the Hawke is the only reason he has anything to do with Anders and Merril. Pretty sure that if it was just up to Fenris, he'd have nothing to do with mages, at all. He doesn't make any attempted to hand them over to the Templars, despite Sebastian's comments.


There is the Hawke element, true, but I also don't think he cares that much as long as they leave him alone. Fenris isn't some moral crusader. If Hawke weren't around and he had a conflict with some mage he wouldn't go running to the templars, he would just attempt to kill them. He doesn't have the same views as Sebastian about it, who is looking at it from more of a Chantry perspective.


I wonder who would win in an Anders v Fenris fight... I'm sure the Anders fans will point to the short story where Anders wipes out this whole group by looking at them, but I found that ridiculous to be honest. Having he and Justice be that powerful really undermines his portrayal in the game, since that level of power is not feasible for a follower NPC.
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#54706
renfrees

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There is the Hawke element, true, but I also don't think he cares that much as long as they leave him alone. Fenris isn't some moral crusader. If Hawke weren't around and he had a conflict with some mage he wouldn't go running to the templars, he would just attempt to kill them. He doesn't have the same views as Sebastian about it, who is looking at it from more of a Chantry perspective.


I wonder who would win in an Anders v Fenris fight... I'm sure the Anders fans will point to the short story where Anders wipes out this whole group by looking at them, but I found that ridiculous to be honest. Having he and Justice be that powerful really undermines his portrayal in the game, since that level of power is not feasible for a follower NPC.

Good assessment of Fenris' personality :)

 

As for your question. Idk about short stories, but in the game Anders never struck me as particularly intimidating in terms of offense, Merrill is far more powerful in that regard. While with Fenris... yeah:

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So - Fenris all day, every day.


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#54707
QweenBeen

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Hi Fenris lovers! First time posting here and man I could've swooned here for ages when I first played DA2!! :) well I had my cullen dose for a bit and now I'm all over Fenris again! Hoping you guys have a guide on how I can rivalmance him, romance anders and then bounce back to fenris at end game. He leeeaves me anyway, so an anders rebound would be a nice touch as long as hawke finds her one true love again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated :) DA2 feels so structured I was never sure I could cheat the system but I gotta try!

Now I shall go and admire the fabulous fenris pics here. Mmmm that elf!

#54708
QweenBeen

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Woops! Double post, sorryz

#54709
renfrees

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Hi Fenris lovers! First time posting here and man I could've swooned here for ages when I first played DA2!! :) well I had my cullen dose for a bit and now I'm all over Fenris again! Hoping you guys have a guide on how I can rivalmance him, romance anders and then bounce back to fenris at end game. He leeeaves me anyway, so an anders rebound would be a nice touch as long as hawke finds her one true love again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated :) DA2 feels so structured I was never sure I could cheat the system but I gotta try!

Now I shall go and admire the fabulous fenris pics here. Mmmm that elf!

The only way you can have both Fenris and Anders AND end up with Fenris (doesn't work every time though), is if you activate Fenris romance by completing his Questioning Beliefs A2 and choosing flirt option at the end, then sleep with Anders without letting him to move in, and only then complete A Bitter Pill. There's no workaround after Fenris leaves - monogamy or forget about the elf.


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#54710
QweenBeen

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The only way you can have both Fenris and Anders (doesn't work every time though), is if you activate Fenris romance by completing his Questioning Beliefs A2 and choosing flirt option at the end, then sleep with Anders without letting him to move in, and only then complete A Bitter Pill. There's no workaround after Fenris leaves - monogamy or forget about the elf.


Thanks for the tip! My oh my isn't he a possessive one :) don't mind at all, it fits his character perfectly. I imagine he'd just growl at any man who tries to woo her :wub:

#54711
renfrees

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Thanks for the tip! My oh my isn't he a possessive one :) don't mind at all, it fits his character perfectly. I imagine he'd just growl at any man who tries to woo her :wub:

He does, at Zevran and Tallis  :rolleyes:  But yeah, Fenris has quite a possessive streak going.



#54712
nightscrawl

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He does, at Zevran and Tallis  :rolleyes:  But yeah, Fenris has quite a possessive streak going.


Lol... Hawke has to flirt first for this to happen though! I've never done that, although I should one of these days just to see it.

#54713
Dutchess

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There is the Hawke element, true, but I also don't think he cares that much as long as they leave him alone. Fenris isn't some moral crusader. If Hawke weren't around and he had a conflict with some mage he wouldn't go running to the templars, he would just attempt to kill them. He doesn't have the same views as Sebastian about it, who is looking at it from more of a Chantry perspective.


I wonder who would win in an Anders v Fenris fight... I'm sure the Anders fans will point to the short story where Anders wipes out this whole group by looking at them, but I found that ridiculous to be honest. Having he and Justice be that powerful really undermines his portrayal in the game, since that level of power is not feasible for a follower NPC.

 

Yep, Fenris' hobby is slaver hunting, not mage hunting. :lol: As for the Anders vs. Fenris fight... Fenris' markings give him magic resistance and should allow him to phase and evade Anders' magical attacks. If he can keep that up until he is in melee range, Anders is dead. 

 

 

Thanks for the tip! My oh my isn't he a possessive one :) don't mind at all, it fits his character perfectly. I imagine he'd just growl at any man who tries to woo her :wub:

 

He does, at Zevran and Tallis  :rolleyes:  But yeah, Fenris has quite a possessive streak going.

 

Which can be a bit odd before the reconciliation scene. :lol: 

 

champions_and_heroes__catching_a_hawke_i

Ddriana

 

Don't worry, Fenris. I still love you. :D


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#54714
Lythinae

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There is the Hawke element, true, but I also don't think he cares that much as long as they leave him alone. Fenris isn't some moral crusader. If Hawke weren't around and he had a conflict with some mage he wouldn't go running to the templars, he would just attempt to kill them. He doesn't have the same views as Sebastian about it, who is looking at it from more of a Chantry perspective.


Basically, yeah. I meant more in regards to the whole why won't he be friends with Anders/Merril thing. Without Hawke, he wouldn't have anything to do with them (so even with Hawke, it's not going to change much).
 
 

He does, at Zevran and Tallis  :rolleyes:  But yeah, Fenris has quite a possessive streak going.


I'll give you the Zevran and Tallis thing, but I don't think it's a simple as possessiveness if you start romancing someone else. You're essentially telling him you've moved on (eta: and rejecting him), and pre-Act 3 Fenris isn't in a place (emotionally, at least) where he would question Hawke over it.
 
 

As for the Anders vs. Fenris fight... Fenris' markings give him magic resistance and should allow him to phase and evade Anders' magical attacks. If he can keep that up until he is in melee range, Anders is dead.


Yep, he gets close enough and Anders is toast. And I don't think it would be that difficult, either (Anders might be great support but he's not a tank)

#54715
taranoire

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It isn't "possessive" to assume your romantic interest isn't going to cheat on you/pursue other relationships without your consent. 



#54716
renfrees

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It isn't "possessive" to assume your romantic interest isn't going to cheat on you/pursue other relationships without your consent. 

Hawke takes quite a leap of faith, waiting 3 years for Fenris without so much as word of reassurance. You may headcanon this situation the way you like and fill the blanks to your heart's content, but if we follow what information the game gives us, they haven't spoken about what transpired between them for 3 years. So making assumptions of faithfulness on that basis is quite presumptious. It should have been handled better in the game, but we have what we have.


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#54717
Violet Carson

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I have nothing really of value to add here, I just wanted to say that's it's such a nice feeling reading comments that are actually talking about Fenris intellectually. I usually get the "UGHZ, He's soooo annoying." Or my favourite "Shesh, Violet, why do you even like him? He's just some Final Fantasy reject!"

I've found my kin.
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#54718
Dutchess

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Basically, yeah. I meant more in regards to the whole why won't he be friends with Anders/Merril thing. Without Hawke, he wouldn't have anything to do with them (so even with Hawke, it's not going to change much).

 

That's a little tricky as an argument, though, because Fenris isn't really interacting with people beyond Hawke's circle anyway. Without Hawke he'd probably sit alone in his mansion every night instead of going to card games in the Hanged Man. So that he wouldn't have anything to do with them otherwise could also apply to Aveline, for instance. The only friendship he eventually seems to forge on his own is with Donnic, although that was likely via Aveline. He is very careful with whom to trust, and I agree that mages are at the bottom of the list.

 

It isn't "possessive" to assume your romantic interest isn't going to cheat on you/pursue other relationships without your consent. 

 

The comic may be making fun of it, but without the A3 reconciliation you can't presume to be in a relationship with Fenris. He clearly left Hawke after that one night and according to the codex he has refused to speak of it ever since. So silence of three years and no romantic interaction. That's not a relationship, and Hawke has the right to move on.

 

I have nothing really of value to add here, I just wanted to say that's it's such a nice feeling reading comments that are actually talking about Fenris intellectually. I usually get the "UGHZ, He's soooo annoying." Or my favourite "Shesh, Violet, why do you even like him? He's just some Final Fantasy reject!"

I've found my kin.

 

Welcome! :D It's nice to see this thread having another active period, and new faces are always welcome. Tsk, whoever said those things to you has no taste. :P



#54719
QweenBeen

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The comic may be making fun of it, but without the A3 reconciliation you can't presume to be in a relationship with Fenris. He clearly left Hawke after that one night and according to the codex he has refused to speak of it ever since. So silence of three years and no romantic interaction. That's not a relationship, and Hawke has the right to move on.


Agree with you on this one, after 3 years it can only be assumed that he's over her, til he starts trying ribbons on himself :wub: I just wish Hawke could explore other relationships in the meantime, seems natural to fall for someone else by accident, but then realize your first was your best. It happens IRL!

#54720
Lythinae

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That's a little tricky as an argument, though, because Fenris isn't really interacting with people beyond Hawke's circle anyway. Without Hawke he'd probably sit alone in his mansion every night instead of going to card games in the Hanged Man. So that he wouldn't have anything to do with them otherwise could also apply to Aveline, for instance. The only friendship he eventually seems to forge on his own is with Donnic, although that was likely via Aveline. He is very careful with whom to trust, and I agree that mages are at the bottom of the list.


I'm not sure I'm being entirely clear lol. Like there's sort of this expectation that because they all sort of hang out together/are freinds with Hawke, that they're automatically friends with each other (I think we're mostly saying the same thing here tho, I'm just being vauge and ramble-y)
 
 

The comic may be making fun of it, but without the A3 reconciliation you can't presume to be in a relationship with Fenris. He clearly left Hawke after that one night and according to the codex he has refused to speak of it ever since. So silence of three years and no romantic interaction. That's not a relationship, and Hawke has the right to move on.


I don't think people should be completely surprised that you can't pick the relationship up again, though. Moving on to someone else is not much different from rejection (and he does kind of wear his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. I think it helps to do All That Remains afterwards too). Particularly on the friendship path - he leaves, but something has clearly gone wrong and he doesn't know how to deal with it. I guess I see it less as expecting monogamy/possessiveness, and more as how he might see rejection.

I dunno, I think I'm less bothered by the 3 year skip here - I think it make sense for Fenris. He has to process what happens, and move forward on his own terms and that would take time.

Flirting after you reconcile is kind of a not that nice thing to do. He's well within rights to be annoyed at open flirting in front him.

#54721
Dutchess

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I'm not sure I'm being entirely clear lol. Like there's sort of this expectation that because they all sort of hang out together/are freinds with Hawke, that they're automatically friends with each other (I think we're mostly saying the same thing here tho, I'm just being vauge and ramble-y)

 

Yeah, I think we agree, haha. :lol: You're right, it's Hawke who is friends (or at least tied) to everyone. Doesn't mean the entire group consists of mutual friendships. Without Hawke, Anders and Merrill would be at the bottom of Fenris' list of people to hang out with. I just meant that Fenris not being friends with these two without Hawke is not just because of the bad mage aspect, but that he simply has no - or very limited - interaction with people outside of Hawke's group while he is still being hunted. 

 

Lythinae, on 22 Jan 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

I don't think people should be completely surprised that you can't pick the relationship up again, though. Moving on to someone else is not much different from rejection (and he does kind of wear his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. I think it helps to do All That Remains afterwards too). Particularly on the friendship path - he leaves, but something has clearly gone wrong and he doesn't know how to deal with it. I guess I see it less as expecting monogamy/possessiveness, and more as how he might see rejection.

 

I dunno, I think I'm less bothered by the 3 year skip here - I think it make sense for Fenris. He has to process what happens, and move forward on his own terms and that would take time.

 

Flirting after you reconcile is kind of a not that nice thing to do. He's well within rights to be annoyed at open flirting in front him.

 

True. If Hawke moves on to someone else Fenris will think they're happy and don't need him, and he won't try to reunite. That's understandable. It's just the funny instance with Zevran (or Tallis) where he blocks Hawke's chance to move on while he should have (temporarily) relinquished all claims. If Hawke switches to an actual LI, Fenris is not stopping them and respects Hawke's wishes. 

 

Hm, I do feel three years is overly long, especially for Hawke's side. It can sort of work for Fenris, but even then three years is quite a long time. Especially because a lot of his issues are tied to Danarius still being alive. I'm not saying they should have reconciled within a few months, but Danarius could have shown up after, say, a year-and-a-half and I think Fenris would still have opened up to Hawke then.

 

Of course, flirting after they have become a couple is different. Then Fenris is right to voice his objections. :)



#54722
QweenBeen

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*sigh* got fenris' s Questioning Beliefs in act 2 where he tells his story and at the end...he gives that look when he says he's never wanted anyone til now. I couldn't screen capture it but if someone has it I'd give them a <3!! :)

he's just so wildly agressive it's super sexy....and then there's anders who I ran to next and flirted with and he's just so...oh we can't do this, you have to know for sure, blah blah, it turned me off. I mean, even when I first met anders and flirted with him he took it so seriously and had to sit down and say we can't. Overly dramatic for a mild flirt imo.

So I don't know, I do believe fenris' sheer amazingness will make me monogamous....although Sebastian's accent is wildly delectable too...no gideon emery but so cute !

#54723
renfrees

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My pleasure :)

 

2j427i1.jpg


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#54724
QweenBeen

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My pleasure :)

2j427i1.jpg


Thank yoooou <3

#54725
QweenBeen

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Since I am brand new to this thread and it does appear fenris has been momentarily overshadowed by cullen, solas, dorian etc....I don't feel bad posting beautiful art even if it's four years old :)


Have we already determined that a romanced fenris will be stalking his bad self over to skyhold to give the Inquisitor a piece of his mind for letting Hawke go? I canon that he joins the ranks ever so reluctantly and may even play a vital role in helping Dorian start a revolution in Tevinter :) they'll be bffs :D