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[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

He was actually a unicorn prince that got trapped in elven form and then kidnapped before being sold into slavery.

Does it mean Ladyhawke has to remain chaste throughout the game in order to attract his attention?

[Cutlasskiwi]

bsbcaer wrote...

This isn't going to be as good as my initial post, because it's gotten swallowed up somewhere in the thread   It has been years since I've taken a philosophy class myself (which is why I was hoping that more people would join into the conversation   The more modern interpretation we have of a Stoic seems to be Vulcans (from Star Trek).  They close themselves off from ALL emotion, not simply destructive/bad emotions (that's what made the dichotomy between Vulcan's and Romulans interesting to me).  As a scholar, I hate using wiki as a source, but it works best right now for my purposes.

  Sourced from Wiki:
Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; "to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy," and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all alike are sons of God."
The Stoic ethic espouses a deterministic perspective; in regards to those who lack Stoic virtue, Cleanthes once opined that the wicked man is "like a dog tied to a cart, and compelled to go wherever it goes." A Stoic of virtue, by contrast, would amend his will to suit the world and remain, in the words of Epictetus, "sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy," thus positing a "completely autonomous" individual will, and at the same time a universe that is "a rigidly deterministic single whole."

So, going back to Fenris, if he adheres to the more classical definition of Stoicism, it doesn't mean that he must be withdrawn and taciturn and removed from his emotions.  A stoic attempts to be free from destructive emotions and, if the emotions are held in check below the skin, then the whole "ticking time bomb" idea may be one that can apply to Fenris with an explosion of anger or jealousy.  Still drinking first cup of coffee, but at the very least this can be used as a jumping off point for more discussion...

unless and until the thread devours it

I wrote about it before but since the topic is on the table again, I'll happily join in. The bolded part is something that I, personally,  find very interesting and seeing a character that lived like that would in my books be the most interesting character in the game. Even more so when considering Fenris past and a relationship with him, whether it be friendship or romance, would be fun to explore. 

[Chagrinned Goat]

bsbcaer wrote...

MagneticDawn wrote...
What is this..?! The keys to the kingdom?! OH SH***! Must.read.NOA! +____+ How the heck do you pull these out?!

As I mentioned in a previous post, all you need to do is click the blue bioware thing immediately below the thread title (on the main forum page) and it will pull up only the dev posts for this thread...

You can always just type "&lf=8" to the end of a thread's URL, as well. That's what I do, anyway.

pink_alora wrote...
I remembered Jack from ME 2 when I read those type of comments although its different writers she was broken in soo many ways but the main goal wasnt to "fix" her when pursuing a friendship or relationship, for me it was just to show her that people dont have to have an ulterior motive when they want to help or get to know you it could simply mean they just care..

Right. Jack's issues had to do with trust, and the belief that nobody would be interested in her, but in what she could offer. By getting to know her, as a friend or a romantic interest, you show her that that isn't a universal truth. You even say this at the end of the quoted paragraph. What I want to know, is how isn't that an attempt to fix her? You say, "The main goal wasn't to fix her, it was to fix her." By showing her that people don't have to have an ulterior motive to getting to know her, aren't you basically helping her work past her problems? Trying to work past those problems with the magic of Shepard is fixing her.

As Calla said, part of interacting with characters in a video game is finding what particular problem they have, and then figuring out what has to be done about it. Everything "wrong" with Jack started with Teltin, so you blow it up. Garrus' problems in ME2 centered around betrayal, so you track down the man responsible. Even in DA:O, Wynne is still carrying around regret about her poor handling of a student. What do you do? Do the impossible and find him, setting her mind at ease. Alistair has mostly known loss, and when faced with the impossible task of being one of the only two people who can end a blight, while being actively hunted, wants to make sure there's something still out there. You track down his long lost sister. Morrigan has mommy issues (though those end up justified, her inherent mistrust of her own mother is troubling.) Leliana is haunted by her past. Zevran has not only the Crows to contend with, but his own history of casual sex and tragic loves, leaving him afraid of actually feeling something for the Warden.

In video games, especially Bioware games, character development happens in a certain way. Get to know the character --> uncover their problems --> fix their problems --> happily ever after. Of course Fenris' past is going to come up at some point. He wouldn't have such a vibrant history otherwise. Unfortunately, that also means there are still going to be issues in him to deal with. He may not belabor himself with his past, but as I've said, we know he has issues. He pulls away from touch as an automatic response. That means he is not at peace with his past, and that generally implies that we'll have to deal with that.

My problem lies in the fact that a man who can't even be approached for a handshake is probably not going to be enthusiastic for starting an intimate relationship. At least not in the course of the game. I would be fine with if it started out with a friendship and only near the end of the game did he express an interest in a romantic relationship with Hawke, but that's not the payoff the fans expect, and that's not the payoff they're going to get. A romantic interest is going to have a fully realized romantic relationship, likely culminating in a sex scene. A romance with Fenris isn't ideal with what we know about him, even if it did play out slow, with, as I said, only an expressed interest at the end of the game as the entirety of a romance. You'd then have problems after that plays out, and a lot of questions as to the intent of his interest in a relationship. But that's an entirely different conversation.

Of course, I have issues with an Aveline romance as well, considering Hawke has the potentional to be the person who kills her husband. Sure, it's an act of mercy, but I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of killing a man and then courting his wife.

Modifié par Chagrinned Goat, 27 janvier 2011 - 06:52 .

[Ramante]

Chagrinned Goat wrote...

My problem lies in the fact that a man who can't even be approached for a handshake is probably not going to be enthusiastic for starting an intimate relationship. At least not in the course of the game. I would be fine with if it started out with a friendship and only near the end of the game did he express an interest in a romantic relationship with Hawke, but that's not the payoff the fans expect, and that's not the payoff they're going to get. A romantic interest is going to have a fully realized romantic relationship, likely culminating in a sex scene. A romance with Fenris isn't ideal with what we know about him, even if it did play out slow, with, as I said, only an expressed interest at the end of the game as the entirety of a romance. You'd then have problems after that plays out, and a lot of questions as to the intent of his interest in a relationship. But that's an entirely different conversation.

Gaider said that his lyrium scars were added later in development and that they are not all that there is about him (weird sentence), so his 'not touching thing' is just a minor part of his character. I agree that it will make a romance difficult and that is exactly the reason why I think he might be romancable. Gaider also stated that he sees no reason not to write a non-perfect romance and that the wishes of fans will have no influence on his decision to write one (or none for that matter; I have completely lost the meaning of this sentence o.o').

Of course, I have issues with an Aveline romance as well, consider Hawke has the potentional to be the person who kills her husband. Sure, it's an act of mercy, but I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of killing a man and then courting his wife.

Wow! Hawke can kill Aveline's husband? I totally missed that, I thought he died of the taint.

[tankgirly]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Alright, new prompt time:

Fade:

(After noticing Fenris tossing and turning in his sleep Hawke heads into the Fade to see what's going on in his dreams)

Hawke: (Sees Fenris surrounded by Fade spirits) Maker's breath Fen, what have you been dreaming of?

Fenris: (yawns) Nothing in particular.

Hawke: Then why are you getting swarmed by spirits? (pushes aside a spirit that looks like a giant panda)

Fenris: Its this thing that they do. They apparently like lyrium, and I'm well, covered in it, so most nights they flock to me like bears to honey.

Hawke: And this doesn't bother you?

Fenris: (sighs) It isn't the most enjoyable thing in the world, but I've had worse things happen to me than being surrounded by spirits. By the way, what are you doing here?

Hawke: Well you were thrashing about in your sleep, I thought something was wrong. (notices Fenris looks like he is about to speak) I know that you can take care of yourself, but you know me, always in your business.

Fenris: I'm sorry if I woke you.

Hawke: (sighs) I'm fine Fen, as long as you're alright.

Fenris: (hugs Hawke) I am unharmed my dear, but for now let us get out of this place before the spirits start to get restless.

(Hawke and Fenris disappear from the Fade)

Oh, I love those.
Dr. Doctor's dlg stuff are full of win! BW should consider hiring one extra writer. Hehehe.
Filed this.
<3

[Addai]

Ramante wrote...
Gaider said that his lyrium scars were added later in development and that they are not all that there is about him (weird sentence), so his 'not touching thing' is just a minor part of his character. I agree that it will make a romance difficult and that is exactly the reason why I think he might be romancable. Gaider also stated that he sees no reason not to write a non-perfect romance and that the wishes of fans will have no influence on his decision to write one (or none for that matter; I have completely lost the meaning of this sentence o.o').

Are we really questioning the DA writers' ability to break hearts and cause teeth to gnash?  Cuz that's dangerous.  lol

Just trust the writers.  I'm sure whatever they do will be an interesting ride, even if it retcons some of the lovey dovey fanart and speculative fanfiction (the which I still think is kind of odd).  Difficult and bittersweet makes a better story for me, anyway.  *insert sad Rowan-Loghain Maric-Fiona sighs*

[tankgirly]

Addai67 wrote...

Are we really questioning the DA writers' ability to break hearts and cause teeth to gnash?  Cuz that's dangerous.  lol

Just trust the writers.  I'm sure whatever they do will be an interesting ride, even if it retcons some of the lovey dovey fanart and speculative fanfiction (the which I still think is kind of odd).  Difficult and bittersweet makes a better story for me, anyway.  *insert sad Rowan-Loghain Maric-Fiona sighs*

I second that!

[Sabriel.]

tankgirly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Are we really questioning the DA writers' ability to break hearts and cause teeth to gnash?  Cuz that's dangerous.  lol

Just trust the writers.  I'm sure whatever they do will be an interesting ride, even if it retcons some of the lovey dovey fanart and speculative fanfiction (the which I still think is kind of odd).  Difficult and bittersweet makes a better story for me, anyway.  *insert sad Rowan-Loghain Maric-Fiona sighs*

I second that!

Thirded! 

Modifié par Mynnymac, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:03 .

[Ramante]

Addai67 wrote...

Ramante wrote...
Gaider said that his lyrium scars were added later in development and that they are not all that there is about him (weird sentence), so his 'not touching thing' is just a minor part of his character. I agree that it will make a romance difficult and that is exactly the reason why I think he might be romancable. Gaider also stated that he sees no reason not to write a non-perfect romance and that the wishes of fans will have no influence on his decision to write one (or none for that matter; I have completely lost the meaning of this sentence o.o').

Are we really questioning the DA writers' ability to break hearts and cause teeth to gnash?  Cuz that's dangerous.  lol

Just trust the writers.  I'm sure whatever they do will be an interesting ride, even if it retcons some of the lovey dovey fanart and speculative fanfiction (the which I still think is kind of odd).  Difficult and bittersweet makes a better story for me, anyway.  *insert sad Rowan-Loghain Maric-Fiona sighs*

I'm sure Gaider will find some way to rip our hearts out or whatever (he needs tears, he can create the weirdest characters to get them I'm sure). I posted something about this a while back (like 200 pages), but I can't remember exactly what I wrote.. it was better phrased than my previous post, though that isn't too difficult. x.x

And I totally agree on the bittersweet part.

I should stop posting, I make no sense at all.

[FenrisDeSolar]

FOR FFFUUU---!!! I will soon marry this thread and NEVER leave it. It moves too quickly, and Gaider always comes when I'm not here...

[Evelane]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

FOR FFFUUU---!!! I will soon marry this thread and NEVER leave it. It moves too quickly, and Gaider always comes when I'm not here...

Last time he came it was to tell us that we better stay on the topic or the thread would be closed.. lol.. that if we dont have anything else to say about fen what the point about continuing..


I WOULD SAY!!!
because if you just throw us some info about him WE WOULD HAVE enough to talk for a year.. loll look lol 525 pages of total frenzy fen pages.. and we almost dont know anything about this mysterious elf ^^

And by the way... (i didint read the 525 pages all XD) readead about half of it.. since i was not there when its started hehe )BUT.. did you talk about his specialisation.. i mean yes he is a warrior.. but... champion berserker, reaver, guardian,spirit warrior templar, i know they are removing some spec but ^^

and he is a 2handed warrior..

Modifié par Evelane, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[tankgirly]

Akako13shi wrote...

Wow i spend about half a day away from the thread and 15 pages are added O.o

Since i am incredibly lazy and dont want too read back through those 15 pages did i miss anything important? =D

Nop.

[FenrisDeSolar]

David Gaider wrote...

He was actually a unicorn prince that got trapped in elven form and then kidnapped before being sold into slavery.

So... does that mean he really likes apples and carrots?

Also, if he's a unicorn... Like... really, though? Is he a unicorn FOR REALS?! O_O

[Evelane]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

He was actually a unicorn prince that got trapped in elven form and then kidnapped before being sold into slavery.

So... does that mean he really likes apples and carrots?

Also, if he's a unicorn... Like... really, though? Is he a unicorn FOR REALS?! O_O

Hummm.. no, that what we call sarcasm... he is not a unicorn.. he is actually

**spoilers**

[FenrisDeSolar]

Evelane, my post was also mostly sarcastic... XD



But having him be a unicorn would actually be hilarious! XD

[tankgirly]

@Evelane, you owed me a Starbuck Venti White Chocolate Mocha.

[Evelane]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Evelane, my post was also mostly sarcastic... XD

But having him be a unicorn would actually be hilarious! XD

i know i just wanted to be abble to add my wonderfull spoiler..

tankygirl.. i know you liked it.. i know..

[MorningBird]

bsbcaer wrote...

This isn't going to be as good as my initial post, because it's gotten swallowed up somewhere in the thread   It has been years since I've taken a philosophy class myself (which is why I was hoping that more people would join into the conversation   The more modern interpretation we have of a Stoic seems to be Vulcans (from Star Trek).  They close themselves off from ALL emotion, not simply destructive/bad emotions (that's what made the dichotomy between Vulcan's and Romulans interesting to me).  As a scholar, I hate using wiki as a source, but it works best right now for my purposes.

  Sourced from Wiki:
Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; "to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy," and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all alike are sons of God."
The Stoic ethic espouses a deterministic perspective; in regards to those who lack Stoic virtue, Cleanthes once opined that the wicked man is "like a dog tied to a cart, and compelled to go wherever it goes." A Stoic of virtue, by contrast, would amend his will to suit the world and remain, in the words of Epictetus, "sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy," thus positing a "completely autonomous" individual will, and at the same time a universe that is "a rigidly deterministic single whole."

So, going back to Fenris, if he adheres to the more classical definition of Stoicism, it doesn't mean that he must be withdrawn and taciturn and removed from his emotions.  A stoic attempts to be free from destructive emotions and, if the emotions are held in check below the skin, then the whole "ticking time bomb" idea may be one that can apply to Fenris with an explosion of anger or jealousy.  Still drinking first cup of coffee, but at the very least this can be used as a jumping off point for more discussion...

unless and until the thread devours it

I really like your interpretation, and I hope it's accurate.    The idea of Fenris being more Zen than troubled is quite appealing to me, and also adds an to an earlier comparison I made about Fenris being very... Sten-like. xD  Though once again, that's probably just me drawing parallels where there are none.

[Dr. Doctor]

I get the feeling that Fenris is going to find either a kindred spirit or rival in Aveline. Both of them have undergone great hardship in their lives. (I get the feeling that Wes' death isn't the only tragdy that Aveline has faced in her life)  How they go about dealing with what they've gone through is what separates them.

Fenris strikes me as being an "every-man-for-himself" sort of person, he's been through hell without the abillity to rely upon anyone but himself for protection. As a result he maintains the same philosophy when dealing with others, if you have a problem, deal with it yourself. He's being hunted and as such trust is something that Fenris has a short supply of.

Aveline on the other hand falls into the "we protect our own" school of thought. She's had people she's cared about die on her watch, and she'll be dammed if she lets anyone else go down if she has anything to say about it. To her, Kirkwall and its people were kind enough to give her a home and a new start after the Blight, so she'll protect the city as well as she can.

I see the two of them bashing heads.

[Evindell]

bsbcaer wrote...

Evindell wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

MagneticDawn wrote...

He is kinda based off Valen but not entirely off of him, his personality has a certain stoic angst edge on him.. His VA, for one has done acting in well-known games..
So hmmm...

As for the bolded part...Please avoid the "A" word unless you explain that you're using it in a particular (rather than general) way because it doesn't go over well for some people (particularly me who have certain definition for the word.  Also, now you see why some of us were trying to figure out whether it's meant to be classical stoicism or the modern interpretation before being drowned out by "boxer or briefs" types of posts...

Ah! Found you. Quite a few pages back I made a post throwing out some ideas that I hoped could be discussed, rather than what was happening at the time (something about chickens...I wasn't really paying attention). Alas, only one person seemed eager to join me. But I couldn't remember who had spoken of stoicism before. I greatly wished to discuss the topic, because, for me, stoicism meaning anything but the modern interpretation is a foreign concept to me. I could never really get into my philosophy class (I was more into my Ethics and Morality class) :happy: So any light you could shed on the topic, and how it might affect Fenris, would be greatly appreciated...

This isn't going to be as good as my initial post, because it's gotten swallowed up somewhere in the thread   It has been years since I've taken a philosophy class myself (which is why I was hoping that more people would join into the conversation   The more modern interpretation we have of a Stoic seems to be Vulcans (from Star Trek).  They close themselves off from ALL emotion, not simply destructive/bad emotions (that's what made the dichotomy between Vulcan's and Romulans interesting to me).  As a scholar, I hate using wiki as a source, but it works best right now for my purposes.

  Sourced from Wiki:
Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; "to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy," and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all alike are sons of God."
The Stoic ethic espouses a deterministic perspective; in regards to those who lack Stoic virtue, Cleanthes once opined that the wicked man is "like a dog tied to a cart, and compelled to go wherever it goes." A Stoic of virtue, by contrast, would amend his will to suit the world and remain, in the words of Epictetus, "sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy," thus positing a "completely autonomous" individual will, and at the same time a universe that is "a rigidly deterministic single whole."

So, going back to Fenris, if he adheres to the more classical definition of Stoicism, it doesn't mean that he must be withdrawn and taciturn and removed from his emotions.  A stoic attempts to be free from destructive emotions and, if the emotions are held in check below the skin, then the whole "ticking time bomb" idea may be one that can apply to Fenris with an explosion of anger or jealousy.  Still drinking first cup of coffee, but at the very least this can be used as a jumping off point for more discussion...

unless and until the thread devours it

So would that make him less like Sten? I'm wondering if Sten adheres to the more modern sense of stoicism. If he does, it would be awesome to see a different side of stoicism with Fenris. Someone who isn't withdrawn from emotion, but is, instead, simply in control of his emotions. But, now that I think about it, that could describe Sten as well. Hmmm....

I bolded a certain section, because it interested me when thinking of him as a slave. If he was always stoic (in the classical sense) then he might have had a certain level of peace-or, maybe peace is the wrong word-while enslaved. I don't know if I'm thinking of this correctly, but its nice to discuss it with someone 

Modifié par Evindell, 27 janvier 2011 - 08:53 .

[SteamPunks]

David did say that Fenris is the only character who doesn't yell in combat.

[tankgirly]

SteamPunks wrote...

David did say that Fenris is the only character who doesn't yell in combat.

Even Sten yell in combat

[ankuu]

It seems that Fenris is killing a Raider in this screenshot according to the new dev blog post. So he's on a ship, killing a pirate. Hmmm...

Modifié par ankuu, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:01 .