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[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...

It is the only source of information about the (off) topic at hand.
& it more of a history book than a mythology book

The codex specifically states Elven Legend, which sounds an awful lot more like mythology that might be true, rather than history which is probably true.

Modifié par Piecake, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Ceridwen]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@kwintessa
That's a possibility. It would definitely explain the Tevinter / Arlathan / Ihavenoidea Mirrors. Perhaps by connecting with spirits beyond the fade, elves were able to tie their souls and therefore become ageless. And when the Tevinters tried it, all hell broke lose with the dark spawn.

Just a really really loose baseless idea of mine, but an interesting one.

I dunno why I laughed at that.

But as for your idea; it isn't that baseless, when comparing it to the codex information we have. I mean, Wynne did it unintentionally. She bonded with a willing, benevolent spirit, thus extending her life time.

To extend that idea, maybe all Arlathan elves were able to enter the Fade consciously, even able to befriend a spirit and proceed to bond with it, becoming ageless.

Or maybe that's just a really big leap, I don't know.

Edit: Aermas is right, we must talk about Fenris.

(Someone needs to make a thread about this, though.)

Modifié par kwintessa, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Aermas]

leonia42 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Aermas wrote...
You're just ignoring the things I post & posting a flippant counter-post & not reading what I have typed.

ELVES WERE QUICKENED BY PROXIMITY & BY BREEDING WITH HUMANS
ELVES NEVER GAINED IMMORTALITY, THEY WERE BORN WITH IT

Prove it.

It is in the Codex.

Show me the entry. We don't know for sure that elves started out as immortals, even though that is the side of the debate I personally sit on I know I can't personally prove it. I doubt you can either. So don't throw around arguments you can't back up. You also totally dismissed my, and other posters', contrary opinion on how elves began to quicken. If you're not going to listen to OUR posts why should we listen to yours. Also we aren't really talking about what weapon Fernis' uses any more because Tankgirly quoted Gaider and proved he is a two-handed warrior. Next?

I proved a counter point to your "theory" & posted a source. You have not posted anything but heresay & conjecture for the support of your theory.

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

Legends are always true? 

I like to assume none of them are.

I also like to believe that some are politically motivated, like I don't believe the black temple was ever gold, and that the whole thing blight creation myth was anti tevinter propaganda.

As for the elves, I think either it was a metaphor for their empire's consistency up to that point, or it's something to do with mirrors and time.

[HolyJellyfish]

@aermas History isn't always true. Look at Andraste's background. You go through the game being told she was this Bride of the Maker, codex entries decorated with her miracles and who she was, only to find out through Wynne that its very possible (and more probable) that Andraste was just a powerful mage whose ashes have the ability to heal.



History is written and rewritten by those in power to legitimize that power (Look at the Chantry). Even so, it is well known that most of Arlathan's history has been completely lost. The legends are passed down orally, and don't have much credence.

[Leonia]

This is a speculation thread on Fernis and how he relates to Tevinter history, elves, Golems of Amgarrak, etc. etc. The only thing off-topic was the presentation of an argument that elves lost their immortality (an argument that was never disputed but which the poster continued to try to argue with us anyway for several pages resulting in my and others having to quiten him down with proper tools of argument and persuasion. If anyone is guilty of derailment, it is not those of us that were trying to quell this poster who was detering the fun speculation direction that the thread was going in prior to his rather rude interjection.)



Now.. Eluvian mirrors. Wasn't there a theory awhile back where Fenris came from the other side of the mirror?

[Aermas]

Piecake wrote...

Aermas wrote...

It is the only source of information about the (off) topic at hand.
& it more of a history book than a mythology book

The codex specifically states Elven Legend, which sounds an awful lot more like mythology that might be true, rather than history which is probably true.

Granted, but it is the only source of information pertaining to the topic at hand. Yet we as human include Ledgends into our history books, like things in the Bible or Gilgamesh

[HolyJellyfish]

@ziggehunderslash

I agree, Legends are never true. I suppose that is why I liked having Morrigan in my party, because she offered an enlightening opinion when you were given stories that may or may not have been true.



Regardless, I really do hope Fenris, the escaped Tevinter elf slave, offers some deeper insight into Arlathan history.



I do hope the real enemy in this game shows itself to be the Tevinters. They seem like a gruesome bunch.

[blithefox]

His name reminds me of the mechs from Mass Effect 2. ):

[tankgirly]

leonia42 wrote...

Now.. Eluvian mirrors. Wasn't there a theory awhile back where Fenris came from the other side of the mirror?

Leonia my darling, that was another one of my theory, too! People in the old thread responsed so well to that one! :O:O:O:O


@blithefox, yeah, those doggie.

Modifié par tankgirly, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Aermas]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@aermas History isn't always true. Look at Andraste's background. You go through the game being told she was this Bride of the Maker, codex entries decorated with her miracles and who she was, only to find out through Wynne that its very possible (and more probable) that Andraste was just a powerful mage whose ashes have the ability to heal.

History is written and rewritten by those in power to legitimize that power (Look at the Chantry). Even so, it is well known that most of Arlathan's history has been completely lost. The legends are passed down orally, and don't have much credence.

The speculation that Andraste was a mage is also in the Codex

[HolyJellyfish]

leonia42 wrote...


Now.. Eluvian mirrors. Wasn't there a theory awhile back where Fenris came from the other side of the mirror?

Maybe that is how he ends up escaping his master at Tevinter? Through the mirrors?

[Ceridwen]

leonia42 wrote...

Now.. Eluvian mirrors. Wasn't there a theory awhile back where Fenris came from the other side of the mirror?

I can see that happening. I can also see Arlathan elves entering these Eluvians during their mysterious Tevinter seige, only to be trapped within by the darkspawn taint corrupting the devices.

[HolyJellyfish]

Aermas wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@aermas History isn't always true. Look at Andraste's background. You go through the game being told she was this Bride of the Maker, codex entries decorated with her miracles and who she was, only to find out through Wynne that its very possible (and more probable) that Andraste was just a powerful mage whose ashes have the ability to heal.

History is written and rewritten by those in power to legitimize that power (Look at the Chantry). Even so, it is well known that most of Arlathan's history has been completely lost. The legends are passed down orally, and don't have much credence.

The speculation that Andraste was a mage is also in the Codex

Yes! I am so glad you brought that up, because it is a codex entry that you get AFTER Wynne talks to you -- As I said before. Glad we agree.

[Leonia]

tankgirly wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Now.. Eluvian mirrors. Wasn't there a theory awhile back where Fenris came from the other side of the mirror?

Leonia my darling, that was another one of my theory, too! People in the old thread responsed so well to that one! :O:O:O:O


@blithefox, yeah, those doggie.

Heh, how many theories have you had now? I don't know which to go with, lol. The Amgarrak one seems to be the most supported at the moment but I am curious about those mirrors. Witch-hunt felt like a total set up for DA 2.

[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...


I proved a counter point to your "theory" & posted a source. You have not posted anything but heresay & conjecture for the support of your theory.

She wasnt even claiming it as her theory or that she believed it.  She simply said that there was a theory out there that says that Elves were never immortal.  That is entirely possible since the only source that claims Elves once were is Elven Legend.

Then you proceeded to bang her over the head with it and put words in her mouth

Now, you may ask me, do I believe it?  I really can't say

[Ceridwen]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
...it is a codex entry that you get AFTER Wynne talks to you...

I don't remember ever getting this dialogue. I probably did, just didn't listen. How do you trigger it?

Modifié par kwintessa, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Aermas wrote...

It is the only source of information about the (off) topic at hand.
& it more of a history book than a mythology book

The codex specifically states Elven Legend, which sounds an awful lot more like mythology that might be true, rather than history which is probably true.

Granted, but it is the only source of information pertaining to the topic at hand. Yet we as human include Ledgends into our history books, like things in the Bible or Gilgamesh

Modern history books sure don't include legends in that sense.  Sure, history books do include legends, but they treat it as a cultural history of the people, what they wrote and believed in rather than what actually happened.

Maybe medieval ones included those legends as evidence to what happend in by-gone days, but certainly not modern ones

[Leonia]

Piecake wrote...

Aermas wrote...


I proved a counter point to your "theory" & posted a source. You have not posted anything but heresay & conjecture for the support of your theory.

She wasnt even claiming it as her theory or that she believed it.  She simply said that there was a theory out there that says that Elves were never immortal.  That is entirely possible since the only source that claims Elves once were is Elven Legend.

Then you proceeded to bang her over the head with it and put words in her mouth

Now, you may ask me, do I believe it?  I really can't say

Oh Piecake, I could hug you. But I am just going to mark this up as a debate with a troll and move on with things. It's like talking to a brickwall with that one. And if there ignore/block function on the forums was actually useful, it would be utilised.

Modifié par leonia42, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[tankgirly]

leonia42 wrote...

tankgirly wrote...

Heh, how many theories have you had now? I don't know which to go with, lol. The Amgarrak one seems to be the most supported at the moment but I am curious about those mirrors. Witch-hunt felt like a total set up for DA 2.

Until Dave of Canada pointed us those lovely glowing tatoo may mean something, my theory was those mirrors.

After that it went to Amgarrak.

[HolyJellyfish]

@Kwintessa You have to give Wynne the book 'The Search for the True Prophet'. My mistake, it isn't a dialogue, but the gift's description. Either when you get the book or give it to her, it opens up codex information.



I think I remember Wynne talking about Andraste afterwards, but I maybe wrong...

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

Modern history books sure don't include legends in that sense.  Sure, history books do include legends, but they treat it as a cultural history of the people, what they wrote and believed in rather than what actually happened.

Those examples are fairly bad as they've been questioned enough to have been poured over extensively, and so are likely to only appear if there is corroborating evidence (coughandcertainstatestextbookscough).

There are good example though. There's no real evidence Richard III bumped off the princes, but you'll still find textbooks based largely on the evidence found in shakespeares play.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Ceridwen]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@Kwintessa You have to give Wynne the book 'The Search for the True Prophet'. My mistake, it isn't a dialogue, but the gift's description. Either when you get the book or give it to her, it opens up codex information.

I think I remember Wynne talking about Andraste afterwards, but I maybe wrong...

Thanks! I remember that book.

You know, after all this speculation, I know one thing for certain. I'm gonna love this game.

[Dr. Doctor]

Elves losing their immortality by falling in love with humans is a typical Tolkien style plot device.



Now, this might just be me digging a little too far into Fenris' name but in Norse mythology Fenir is the son of Loki the trickster god, who is foretold to kill Odin at the end of the world. However Fenir remains imprisoned, and can only carry out his task should he manage to break free.



From what we can tell from the bits of story seen so far at the time when Cassandra is listening to Varric's tale of Hawke's adventures the Chantry appears to be in danger of falling and the world remains on the brink of war. Maybe Fenris, who escaped from his captors in Tevinter plays a big role in all of this.

[Leonia]

Sooo maybe the mirror theory and GoA theoris could both work? The GoA theory would tie more into Fenris and the mirror theory would explain what happened to Arlathan. Maybe.. Fenris' soul was pulled from the other side of the mirror and put into the body of a flesh golem. Or that sounds a bit farfetched.