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[Ceridwen]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

From what we can tell from the bits of story seen so far at the time when Cassandra is listening to Varric's tale of Hawke's adventures the Chantry appears to be in danger of falling and the world remains on the brink of war. Maybe Fenris, who escaped from his captors in Tevinter plays a big role in all of this.

Fenris could be physical evidence that Chantry history is false, causing an uproar in Thedas amongst mages and the Chantry, or even another great Schism in the Chantry.

Modifié par kwintessa, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Leonia]

kwintessa wrote...

Fenris could be (edit:) physical evidence that Chantry history is false, causing an uproar in Thedas.

Hm.. yes..

"They know what I am. Let them come, if they find the courage."

That could be both a literal and metaphorical challenge against the Chantry. Fenris could be the ultimate heretic.

Modifié par leonia42, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Ziggeh]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Elves losing their immortality by falling in love with humans is a typical Tolkien style plot device.

There's definitely the fall from grace element about it.

[HolyJellyfish]

From what we can tell from the bits of story seen so far at the time when Cassandra is listening to Varric's tale of Hawke's adventures the Chantry appears to be in danger of falling and the world remains on the brink of war. Maybe Fenris, who escaped from his captors in Tevinter plays a big role in all of this.

This.

I still like the floating idea that Fenris is somehow related to Fen'Harel, but this is a nice extra layer and likely more probable.

[Piecake]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Modern history books sure don't include legends in that sense.  Sure, history books do include legends, but they treat it as a cultural history of the people, what they wrote and believed in rather than what actually happened.

Those examples are fairly bad as they've been questioned enough to have been poured over extensively, and so are likely to only appear if there is corroborating evidence (coughandcertainstatestextbookscough).

There are good example though. There's no real evidence Richard III bumped off the princes, but you'll still find textbooks based largely on the evidence found in shakespeares play.

I think there are a few major diffences between legends and example you gave.  For Richard III, we know who wrote it, when it was written, and that the author was familiar with court affairs(I think, never learned much Shakespeare).  You could make the claim that this was rumor and common knowledge and then use other circumstancial evidence to back up your claim like motive, accessability, and what not.  Still, Its not completely convincing, but I think its not a baseless argument either.

With legends, you can't do any of that. 

[Dr. Doctor]

Maybe Fenris had known something that would be damning for the survival of the Chantry, or to Thedas as a whole, the Magister he escaped from burned the lyrium into his flesh did so to keep said knowledge out of reach for those who might seek it.

[Piecake]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Elves losing their immortality by falling in love with humans is a typical Tolkien style plot device.

There's definitely the fall from grace element about it.

it actually sounds like a story an oppressed people could have made up to explain their wretched situation, give hope and history that they were once better, and lay further blame on humans, their enemies, for their fall

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

I think there are a few major diffences between legends and example you gave.  For Richard III, we know who wrote it, when it was written, and that the author was familiar with court affairs(I think, never learned much Shakespeare).  You could make the claim that this was rumor and common knowledge and then use other circumstancial evidence to back up your claim like motive, accessability, and what not.  Still, Its not completely convincing, but I think its not a baseless argument either.

True, it was more a perpetuated rumour.

How about Caesar's final words?

[Dr. Doctor]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I still like the floating idea that Fenris is somehow related to Fen'Harel, but this is a nice extra layer and likely more probable.

The elven gods bear a significant resemblance to the Norse gods, whith Fen'Harel being similar to Loki in Nose mythology. The codex on the elf gods also states:

There are also references in elven mythology to another race of gods,
called "The Forgotten Ones," the enemies of the elven pantheon. It is
said that Fen'Harel was the only one able to walk freely between the
two groups

Due to the fact that this is DA and gods are real in this case, Fenris could be a Tevinter version of Morrigan's god baby, but instead of the soul of an Old God, he holds the soul of a being who has not only seen the Elven gods, but the Old Gods as well. The words of the Architect in Awakening along with the words of the Fade spirits allude to the possibilty of The Maker being non existant.

That fact could throw the Chantry into chaos and plunge Thedas into war.

So what's a Magister to do when his conduit to a higher power holds knowledge that could destroy a world? Wipe his memory in hopes that said info never leaks out. Fenris could be one of the keys to Hawke's rise to power in DA2, if knowlege is power then Fenris could be the equivalent of a doomsday device.

[Sanctuary74]

kwintessa wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@kwintessa
That's a possibility. It would definitely explain the Tevinter / Arlathan / Ihavenoidea Mirrors. Perhaps by connecting with spirits beyond the fade, elves were able to tie their souls and therefore become ageless. And when the Tevinters tried it, all hell broke lose with the dark spawn.

Just a really really loose baseless idea of mine, but an interesting one.

I dunno why I laughed at that.

But as for your idea; it isn't that baseless, when comparing it to the codex information we have. I mean, Wynne did it unintentionally. She bonded with a willing, benevolent spirit, thus extending her life time.

To extend that idea, maybe all Arlathan elves were able to enter the Fade consciously, even able to befriend a spirit and proceed to bond with it, becoming ageless.

Or maybe that's just a really big leap, I don't know.

Edit: Aermas is right, we must talk about Fenris.

(Someone needs to make a thread about this, though.)

Maybe you could post all of this in my thread? it is speculation about elves and Fenris and how it all ties together.
I would do it, but my internet is too slow and it would take HOURS

[Piecake]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Piecake wrote...

I think there are a few major diffences between legends and example you gave.  For Richard III, we know who wrote it, when it was written, and that the author was familiar with court affairs(I think, never learned much Shakespeare).  You could make the claim that this was rumor and common knowledge and then use other circumstancial evidence to back up your claim like motive, accessability, and what not.  Still, Its not completely convincing, but I think its not a baseless argument either.

True, it was more a perpetuated rumour.

How about Caesar's final words?

Well, for some reason I thought that Richard III and Shakespeare lived during the same time or at least a lot closer than that, so I'll ratchet down my level of convincing a bit

Still, I think it could be used historically, just not very convincingly and with a lot of explanations (I wouldnt laugh at it like I would if I saw someone use a legend or Caesar's final words historically).

As for Caesar's words, no, that definitely can't be used historically. 

Modifié par Piecake, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Ex-Paladin]

A possible plot to the Chantry's fall!? O^O

YEEES!!!!!

[HolyJellyfish]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I still like the floating idea that Fenris is somehow related to Fen'Harel, but this is a nice extra layer and likely more probable.

The elven gods bear a significant resemblance to the Norse gods, whith Fen'Harel being similar to Loki in Nose mythology. The codex on the elf gods also states:

There are also references in elven mythology to another race of gods,
called "The Forgotten Ones," the enemies of the elven pantheon. It is
said that Fen'Harel was the only one able to walk freely between the
two groups

Due to the fact that this is DA and gods are real in this case, Fenris could be a Tevinter version of Morrigan's god baby, but instead of the soul of an Old God, he holds the soul of a being who has not only seen the Elven gods, but the Old Gods as well. The words of the Architect in Awakening along with the words of the Fade spirits allude to the possibilty of The Maker being non existant.

That fact could throw the Chantry into chaos and plunge Thedas into war.

So what's a Magister to do when his conduit to a higher power holds knowledge that could destroy a world? Wipe his memory in hopes that said info never leaks out. Fenris could be one of the keys to Hawke's rise to power in DA2, if knowlege is power then Fenris could be the equivalent of a doomsday device.

Fascinating.

I do like the idea of Fenris being the tevinter equivalent of Morrigan/Flemeth/Godchild.

Keep in mind Fenris is still described as a weapon that the Tevinter uses, so his memory wipe may or may not have everything to do with why he was injected with lyrium. What interests me is what is it about Fenris that makes him physically special enough to withstand those injections, when Lyrium is considered poisonous to humans & elves (and a lesser extent, dwarves).

If, somehow, his soul connected to Fen'Harel has something to do with it, all the more fascinating.

I don't typically harp for LI, but there is a chance Hawke can bounce an all powerful demi god elf, let me at it.

[Leonia]

At this point, Fenris as a LI is beginning to outshine all the Origins LIs in terms of complexity and general awesomeness.



I kind of don't want him to turn out to be some sort of demi-god, even if it is fun to speculate about his background.

[Sanctuary74]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I still like the floating idea that Fenris is somehow related to Fen'Harel, but this is a nice extra layer and likely more probable.

The elven gods bear a significant resemblance to the Norse gods, whith Fen'Harel being similar to Loki in Nose mythology. The codex on the elf gods also states:

There are also references in elven mythology to another race of gods,
called "The Forgotten Ones," the enemies of the elven pantheon. It is
said that Fen'Harel was the only one able to walk freely between the
two groups

Due to the fact that this is DA and gods are real in this case, Fenris could be a Tevinter version of Morrigan's god baby, but instead of the soul of an Old God, he holds the soul of a being who has not only seen the Elven gods, but the Old Gods as well. The words of the Architect in Awakening along with the words of the Fade spirits allude to the possibilty of The Maker being non existant.

That fact could throw the Chantry into chaos and plunge Thedas into war.

So what's a Magister to do when his conduit to a higher power holds knowledge that could destroy a world? Wipe his memory in hopes that said info never leaks out. Fenris could be one of the keys to Hawke's rise to power in DA2, if knowlege is power then Fenris could be the equivalent of a doomsday device.

I agree with these theories  wholeheartedly, but then this would make the question of, where did the darkspawn come from? We know the Tevinter's tried to go to the Maker's Golden City and tainted it, being caste down as darkspawn to start the first blight. If the Maker isn't real then this would change history forever. But this also links to the theory in this thread about lyrium and the Tevinter Magisters wanting to use it to become immortal like the elves and it backfiring on them, this could disprove the Maker being real and the backfiring of becoming immortal by use of lyrium turned them into darkspawn.

We may be onto something!!

[Leonia]

Lol.. I don't know, I guess I prefer normal, average characters as LIs. It's easier to relate to them that way.

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

As for Caesar's words, no, that definitely can't be used historically. 

Certainly has been though. J. Edgar Hoovers sex life, Napoleon's height. History is a messy old business.

[Aermas]

Fenris being a god bestriding the earth would be cool, along with a Fenrir's fate tie-in of him having a major role at the end. He is a walking lyrium battery, maybe there is a magic engine of doom, & he is the keystone. Like Frankenstein in the movie VanHelsing.

[Piecake]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Piecake wrote...

As for Caesar's words, no, that definitely can't be used historically. 

Certainly has been though. J. Edgar Hoovers sex life, Napoleon's height. History is a messy old business.

Of course, there is a lot of bad history out there.  Even history that has been recently published by University presses arent immune to it, but If i found a book that used Shapespeare's ceaser's last words historically I would say that is absolute crap.  The event is just far too removed from both time and place from the author to be taken seriously.  Richard III might work because the Time and Place is closer, and it could be an existing rumour(that you might be able to back up in other places)  Caesar just doesnt work like that. 

You can cerntainly use Caesar historically though, just not in reference to Roman times, only in reference to Shakespeares time does it work (I guess if you want to talk about how 16th century Britains viewed Romans or something - havent read it so cant come up with anything more interesting). 

Modifié par Piecake, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[Leonia]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Lol.. I don't know, I guess I prefer normal, average characters as LIs. It's easier to relate to them that way.

Yeah, I could see that. You want him to have flaws, true.

Mhm. It may sound sort of cliche, but flaws are what make people beautiful. If we were perfect creatures we wouldn't need companionship and love.

That's not to say non-LI characters are any less important or interesting than LI ones, however.

[HolyJellyfish]

@ziggehunderslash @piecake



But all the deception, rewriting, political dabbling is what makes history so darn fascinating. Because when facts begin to shine between the cracks of deception, there is this wonderful 'AH HAH!' moment.



I am VERY excited to see DA2 uncover what really happened. I imagine it will probably explain the origins of the darkspawn among other questions left by the prologue, Origins.



And if Fenris is the key to this information, that makes him all the more fascinating.

[Sanctuary74]

I would be very happy if any of our theories were true

[tankgirly]

DalishAssassin wrote...

I would be very happy if any of our theories were true

Like how we guessed Fenris being a Trevinter slave. Awesome.