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[HolyJellyfish]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How else would you label male secondary sex characteristics if not as "masculine?"

I have nothing against labeling something as masculine; I do, however, develop a slight twitch at the presumption that what is and is not masculine must be the same for everyone. Normally I would say nothing, but since it was used in a argument where the entire purpose was to argue against the uniformity of beauty, I felt compelled to type.

Here here.

[PsychoBlonde]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Oh dear. I really don't want to get into an argument about what is masculine and what is feminine. Personally, I find David Bowie from the Labyrinth far more masculine than, say, the Rock ever could be.

Well, read what she said about "in this context".  She was clarifying what she was talking about.  I'm pretty sure that Maria understands the difference between sex and gender, and "masculine" or "feminine" can refer equally to sexual characteristics AND gender characteristics depending on context.  I think you could use the term "manly" to indicate gender characteristics instead of sexual characteristics, but IMO that carries a normative connotation that may not be desirable.

And I sort of get your contention about Bowie being more, er, manly than The Rock in some respects.  For instance, I think Fenris looks pretty manly, but he's not as overblown masculine as, say, Sten was.

[CrookedAsylum]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How else would you label male secondary sex characteristics if not as "masculine?"

I have nothing against labeling something as masculine; I do, however, develop a slight twitch at the presumption that what is and is not masculine must be the same for everyone. Normally I would say nothing, but since it was used in a argument where the entire purpose was to argue against the uniformity of beauty, I felt compelled to type.

Here here.

I personally find David Bowie to be the most masculine man in the history of ever. Illusive Man is up there, too.

[hangmans tree]

Maria Caliban wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

Seriously...

I might be wrong but the is an uniform standard of beauty, right?

There's no 'might' about it. You're wrong. And stupidly so. You get ten people in a room and ask them who they think is attractive, you'll get a bunch of different answers. Then those people will argue about the subject.

The only thing that are 'uniform' for women is that people like a symmetrical face (which she has), find younger-but-past-puberty markers attractive (smooth skin, shiny hair, clear eyes), and that an hourglass figure is attractive. (the actual ratio is higher than what most who make the 'most beautiful women of...' have.)

Isabela has all the attributes that statistically shown to be attractive. Everything else is personal taste.

She looks more like a man.

Masculine features are broad shoulders, muscular development, V shaped torso, square chin, and generally angular facial features. None of which Isabela possesses.

I could give you a course in physignomy but that is not the point.

You're referring to physiognomy, the quack science where you can tell a person's personality by their facial features? The 'study' that Leonardo DiVinci called BS way back in the 16th century?

Do you think this model is attractive?

Yeah. So much for your uniform standard of beauty.

Oh, another raging one...
Physiognomy, as face features, not knowledge. Distinctive to gender.
Beauty standards - as in aesthetics plus there is a thing called koinophilia - about averageness, look it up yourself if you're willing.
If you desaturate and remove the hair from the screen her face has male features. But you must look past your prejudice...
And calling me stupid right from the bat. Nice. Should I lower to your standards then?

PsychoBlonde wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

And arent you generalising too much?

Only when I'm wrong, which I'm obviously not since you're so hastily backing away from your much stronger earlier statement.

Where do I back out of my statement???

But this is OFFTOPIC, I am willing to move the argument to PM form or other thread, ust say so whoever is interested...

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm sticking with my "he's Jason Bourne with pointy ears" prediction - though I'm more likely to take the "let's just wait and see" approach.

Or maybe a living atomic bomb.

Just when you are gettin' to the hot parts of the romance situation, elf blows up and destroys a portion of Thedas. The chantry blames Tevinter, Tevinter blames Ferelden.

The truth behind how all these nations come to the brink of war.

roll credits.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm sticking with my "he's Jason Bourne with pointy ears" prediction - though I'm more likely to take the "let's just wait and see" approach.

Yeah, this is my basic expectation atm, but I really hope they did do something substantially more interesting with it.  I don't really care WHAT it is, just so long as it isn't cliche-tastic.

[CrookedAsylum]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Well, read what she said about "in this context".  She was clarifying what she was talking about.  I'm pretty sure that Maria understands the difference between sex and gender, and "masculine" or "feminine" can refer equally to sexual characteristics AND gender characteristics depending on context.  I think you could use the term "manly" to indicate gender characteristics instead of sexual characteristics, but IMO that carries a normative connotation that may not be desirable.

And I sort of get your contention about Bowie being more, er, manly than The Rock in some respects.  For instance, I think Fenris looks pretty manly, but he's not as overblown masculine as, say, Sten was.

My mistake then. It's early, and I spent the last two hours staring at the purdy moon, but that's not excuse for my lack of reading comprehension skills.

Sorry, Maria.

[Maria Caliban]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Masculinity, literally, is any trait that is commonly attributed to men.

Yes, I know that. However, I'm when I'm talking about masculine physical features, I'm referring simply to the physical features that develop in men because of their hormones.

I'm not talking about personality, behavior, speech-patters, whether they can dance, what they wear, if they like romances, if they're 'ripped,' or how heavy they are.

For example, chest hair is a masculine feature. It doesn't mean that a man who has chest hair is 'manly' on a cultural level. Or even that they're attractive.

This is different from beauty, which is primarily a cultural and personal assessment. The only known biological markers of beauty are the ones listed AND they're a generalization at best because studies show that the way we rate people we know and interact with isn't the same as the way we rate pictures of people's faces.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

...I picked Salma Hayek...

Because she's HAWT.*

*Warning, Maria is expressing a personal preference. She is not claiming that Salma Hayek meets some platonic ideal or that evolutionary forces have conspired to make Salma a 10 out of 10.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[CrookedAsylum]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, I know that. However, I'm when I'm talking about masculine physical features, I'm referring simply to the physical features that develop in men because of their hormones.

I'm not talking about personality, behavior, speech-patters, whether they can dance, what they wear, if they like romances, if they're 'ripped,' or how heavy they are.

For example, chest hair is a masculine feature. It doesn't mean that a man who has chest hair is 'manly' on a cultural level. Or even that they're attractive.

This is different from beauty, which is primarily a cultural and personal assessment. The only known biological markers of beauty are the ones listed AND they're a generalization at best because studies show that the way we rate people we know and interact with isn't the same as the way we rate pictures of people's faces.

After re-reading I realized I was hasty. Sorry for being so quick to jump down your throat. That said, and me leaving my derp in the trunk, I agree entirely with this and your earlier point.

[Maria Caliban]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

After re-reading I realized I was hasty. Sorry for being so quick to jump down your throat. That said, and me leaving my derp in the trunk, I agree entirely with this and your earlier point.

Don't apologize. I know it's a common mistake and understand where you're coming from. It's my fault for not being clear enough in my original post.

[PsychoBlonde]

hangmans tree wrote...
Where do I back out of my statement???

Compare and contrast the difference between "she's ugly as hell" and "she's ugly to me".  The first is a strong statement of perceived fact.  The second is a weaker statement of acknowledged opinion.

I know a lot of women who, if you desaturate and erase their hair, look just like men.  I also know men who, if you do this, kind of look like women.  (My housemate complained bitterly that Morrigan looked just like a man when he first saw her.  It was amusing.)  There's actually not that much difference.

Take a look at Fenris, for instance.  (Better yet, look at him right next to Morrigan.)  Awfully similar in facial construction, aren't they.  But I haven't seen a lot of complaints that he looks girly.  (Although they may be in this thread somewhere, it's long.)

[BlinkySparkz]

Somewhere lurking in the shadows, fans observe the shiny glowy elf and as a conclusion...?

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

...I picked Salma Hayek...

Because she's HAWT.*

*Warning, Maria is expressing a personal preference. She is not claiming that Salma Hayek meets some platonic ideal or that evolutionary forces have conspired to make Salma a 10 out of 10.

Yes, she IS!

[upsettingshorts]

How can I support the "Salma Hayek is hot" opinion? Is there a newsletter? Perhaps with pictures?

[hangmans tree]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...
Where do I back out of my statement???

Compare and contrast the difference between "she's ugly as hell" and "she's ugly to me".  The first is a strong statement of perceived fact.  The second is a weaker statement of acknowledged opinion.

I know a lot of women who, if you desaturate and erase their hair, look just like men.  I also know men who, if you do this, kind of look like women.  (My housemate complained bitterly that Morrigan looked just like a man when he first saw her.  It was amusing.)  There's actually not that much difference.

Take a look at Fenris, for instance.  (Better yet, look at him right next to Morrigan.)  Awfully similar in facial construction, aren't they.  But I haven't seen a lot of complaints that he looks girly.  (Although they may be in this thread somewhere, it's long.)

Thats because mens and womens standards of beauty are different I suppose.
Agree on opening post which was strongly saturated by my opinion. But second one was a clarification, and in no means stands in the oposite...or retracting...I strongly feel that her face is unappealing.
Fenris vs Morrigan - that would support my feeling they are randomly generated...not hand-crafted.

EDIT:I removed ugly, I admit, I used this word, which is too strong for this npc, to underline emphesize my stance. She is not ugly. Bland, plain, uniteresting - yes, but not ugly. Why? Because I remembered what ugly supposed to mean...

Modifié par hangmans tree, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[HolyJellyfish]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...
Where do I back out of my statement???

Take a look at Fenris, for instance.  (Better yet, look at him right next to Morrigan.)  Awfully similar in facial construction, aren't they.  But I haven't seen a lot of complaints that he looks girly.  (Although they may be in this thread somewhere, it's long.)

The trolls get tossed out pretty quickly when you try to keep a warm, supportive, and inviting thread open.

That boy does have a jaw that could sale. mm hmm. I'll miss the stubble. But I'm satisfied.

[CrookedAsylum]

hangmans tree wrote...

Thats because mens and womens standards of beauty are different I suppose.
Agree on opening post which was strongly saturated by my opinion. But second one was a clarification, and in no means stands in the oposite...or retracting...I strongly feel that her face is unappealing, ugly even.
Fenris vs Morrigan - that would support my feeling they are randomly generated...not hand-crafted.

Oh dear for the bold part.

For everything else; That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Ex-Paladin]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...
Where do I back out of my statement???

Take a look at Fenris, for instance.  (Better yet, look at him right next to Morrigan.)  Awfully similar in facial construction, aren't they.  But I haven't seen a lot of complaints that he looks girly.  (Although they may be in this thread somewhere, it's long.)

The trolls get tossed out pretty quickly when you try to keep a warm, supportive, and inviting thread open.

That boy does have a jaw that could sale. mm hmm. I'll miss the stubble. But I'm satisfied.

Indeed he does kinda glad the stubble isn't there since I'm used to elves not having facial hair ^^'

[hangmans tree]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

Thats because mens and womens standards of beauty are different I suppose.
Agree on opening post which was strongly saturated by my opinion. But second one was a clarification, and in no means stands in the oposite...or retracting...I strongly feel that her face is unappealing, ugly even.
Fenris vs Morrigan - that would support my feeling they are randomly generated...not hand-crafted.

Oh dear for the bold part.

For everything else; That's just, like, your opinion, man.

What do you mean? Men and women tend to look for different things when looking at an opposite sex . Eg men look at , lets say legs and hip-waist ratio, and women at, dunno, hands, face, eyes or butt, whatever.

Or are you picking at my english?

[PsychoBlonde]

hangmans tree wrote...
Fenris vs Morrigan - that would support my feeling they are randomly generated...not hand-crafted.

I'm pretty sure all the major NPC's are hand-crafted, in that they were individually built by the designers.  But there have been devs on here talking about how the various "rigs" for animations and so forth are built, so yeah, there are some inherent constraints that means the faces are not going to be really wildly divergent even when they are built individually.

This isn't the same as taking a bunch of sliders, hitting "randomize" and accepting whatever you get, however.

[PsychoBlonde]

hangmans tree wrote...

What do you mean? Men and women tend to look for different things when looking at an opposite sex . Eg men look at , lets say legs and hip-waist ratio, and women at, dunno, hands, face, eyes or butt, whatever.

Erm, I like men's legs and hip/waist ratio . . . actually I thought the male models in Origins had GREAT calves.  Better than soccer players.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Tamyn]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Collider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Collider wrote...

On that note, how would you all feel if Fenris had a former lover?

I assume that the average adult has had several lovers. I'm not sure I would 'feel' anything about it.

No no, not quite that. I mean one that he talks about.

So long as he doesn't start comparing me to his dead fiance/sister.

I would prefer that Fenris didn't bring it up at all, unless it was just in a general sense. Like "most women I've been with..." etc. No specific "TWU LUVS" that died tragically.

[Ninja Mage]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Okay ladies, retract the claws. Just 'cause some guy says Isabela is ugly. Come on, seriously? ;

On topic.

She is. She looks like Ms. Potato head, but thats all I will say about the matter

[Liyros]

(Wouldn't it be interesting if one the male companions got long hair like Bethany? It'd work on a qunari. [or an elf, but we already have Fenris here.])



Anyways, I was reminded of Fenris when I picked up the Magister's Shield on my Human noble origin that I'm in the process of finishing. It's a necklace made of pure lyrium with enchantments woven into the links. The lyrium bit obviously reminded me of Meg and I had to wonder if that's part of the reason why he is a warrior; that the lyrium acts as a defense.



Or it could just be the enchantments doing all the work, but then what's the point of noting that it's made out of pure lyrium? I'm going in loops, so I was hoping everyone could dissect this and tell me whether or not I'm just seeing things here :]

[ankuu]

tankgirly wrote...


Not sure about you guys, but after two pages of serious discussion with Ser David...

I need to relax.

Awww it's so cuuuute! Is this made by you? I'll put it on the front page as well ^^

And i'll sooo play as a mage over and over again with lil Carver. There are so many funny things that could derive from this...Fenris breaking your lyrium bottles, you starting a fire to freak him out...*dreams on*

Modifié par ankuu, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:52 .