55380 réponses à ce sujet

[Minxie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Minxie18 wrote...

 Part of that for me is that Fenris comes across as the effeminate, delicate one when paired with the macho, muscled human male Hawke and I don't think that suits him

In what specifical example of the MHawke/Fenris pairing - since I assume you're talking about fanart, lacking all other visual representations of such a relationship - does Fenris come off as effeminate and delicate?

Not just fanart, but just by seeing what he looks like in the game compared to the default M!Hawke. And M!Hawke will always have a tall, strongly built figure no matter what custom face he has, so just to me Fenris looks effeminate in comparison with his slender build (not that he always looks that way, just when he's juxtaposed with the human male models in the game). That's what I mean.  It's just my own personal preference about what kind relationships I like to see in games/movies/fiction in general. I like couples that come across as equals, both in their appearance and their personalities. I can only based on appearance right now since we haven't seen how Fenris and Hawke interact yet, so perhaps this will change. But for now all I can see when I picture M!Hawke and Fenris is a tall, strapping fellow with his pretty boy toy, and when I picture M!Hawke and Anders I can more easily see just two guys who are in love. 

[plumededragop]

RinjiRenee wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

The version we see is a romantized version of him while the thought of him being with men on the road would really hurt that outlook as well. Idk, probably from the lack of a decent precedent.

... And being with another man would "hurt that outlook" how exactly?  He'd still be Fenris.

I agree... and I really don't understand anything. Since when does sexuality has a big part in someone's personnality? Because people are so use to the f/m scheme, they have trouble with m/m? No, it doesn't make any sense. They might not be used to it or seen much or I-don't-know-what, I understand this, but saying that it changes something... no, really, I don't see the problem. As for me, I actually have more trouble writing F/M stories than M/M or F/F, but I see a character as who he is, being hetero or bi or gay or slim or effeminate doesn't change anything.
Don't know if I was ranting, and I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but please.

Modifié par plumededragop, 27 février 2011 - 04:51 .

[happy-emu]

Ryzaki wrote...

happy-emu wrote...
The only two in Thedas you can romance thus far, yes. And yeah, the others (minus Zathrian) are characters you ONLY meet when playing one of the elf Origins. I don't count them, because I am counting characters you can meet regardless of player choices, and of those, I was obviously talking about love interests both in current games and future possible comparisons. That was pretty clear in my comment, take it however you want.

Yes because you don't met Soris in the Dungeon. 
You don't meet Cammen (and have the option of sleeping with his girlfriend but not him). 

If you're going to make a sweeping generalization like "elves" and not "elven party members" yeah you should take in chacters you meet even if they're only in one origin. 

And I assure you, you are no more tired of that than I am of "Fenris HAS to be bi omg just make EVERYONE bi" thing.

Hilariously enough I'm sick of the eveyrone bi thing too. 

In the case of Anders, you can't honestly say it would be MORE stereotypical to have him be bi than Fenris. I didn't say I was judging any group by two examples, only that Fenris being bi would only deepen a trend that seems to be the expected perception among fans in general (not just the Fen-girls). Trend, as in the dead-wife syndrome everyone was so afraid would happen again with Fenris as it had in other BW games.

How is Fenris more sterotypical? Because OMG BW did one gay elf before? Wow. Soo many. There is no trend other than in people's heads. Gaider has repeatedly said Zevran and Fenris have little in common. But apparently that's not enough. And let's ignore the fact that Anders may have more in common personaity wise than Fenris does. Because after all it's only race that matters. 

The very first thing a friend of mine said when they saw Fenris was to ask if he was the gay one. There IS a perceived stereotype to the male bisexuals of the game. A lot of people expect Fenris to be gay based on the fact that he's an elf, yes. I am not championing these people (and I'm not sure why you seem so eager to pick a fight) but I am saying that if Fenris IS bi, it feeds that kind of expectation. People would be, in general, more surprised to find out Anders is bisexual, and surprises (as long as they are in character with a solid story) make for good writing.

You're coming off with the whole "race is all that matters" like I am the one who is spouting that all elves ARE bi, when I'm not. I am only (and repeatedly) saying it is what a LOT of people think, and it would be nice (in my opinion) to prove that wrong with Fenris.

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

*Pops in*
I'm just going to input my two cents before you pull out the pitchforks and torches and come after me, but...

This subject = Needs to be dropped. It's becoming very much like reading the 1-9 Channel on RIFT, where they constantly debate which game is better, and then get into huge, irritating, childish fights over it that make you either want to turn off all chat for the next five minutes or log off until they're done.

So I'm simply going to say: This is getting old. Please drop the subject and find one that doesn't cause so much hostility. I really would like to see this thread survive to page 1000, and I would be ecstatic to see it go past March 8th.

*Goes back to writing page 1000 prompt*

[stephen1493]

plumededragop wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

The version we see is a romantized version of him while the thought of him being with men on the road would really hurt that outlook as well. Idk, probably from the lack of a decent precedent.

... And being with another man would "hurt that outlook" how exactly?  He'd still be Fenris.

I agree... and I really don't understand anything. Since when does sexuality has a big part in someone's personnality? Because people are so use to the f/m scheme, they have trouble with m/m? No, it doesn't make any sense. They might not be used to it or seen much or I-don't-know-what, I understand this, but saying that it changes something... no, really, I don't see the problem. As for me, I actually have more trouble writing F/M stories than M/M or F/F, but I see a character as who he is, being hetero or bi or gay doesn't change anything.
Don't know if I was ranting, and I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but please.

it's cool but i already responded to his point.

[Ryzaki]

stephen1493 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
Sterotypical Not so much that because Bioware did one gay elf before, but that elves in fantasy are considered mostly as the fey people, and all that word accompanies.

Either way I will agree with you on the race argument that race doesn't mean everything, sarcasm aside, due to Bioware wrighting personalities that truly differed each person's character in DA:O

I would love to know which multiple elves (in comparison to all the works elves are in) that are bisexual so often as to become a sterotype.

The only elves being bi thing I've gotten was from boys who think anything that doesn't ooze testorone and rage is gay.

Well lets not forget all the elves who didn't tell us they were Bi in DA:O.

Just because you're the Warden doesn't mean that every elf in Fereldan has to walk up and tell us their true sexual orientation. For all we know Tamlen was bi.

In any case this is starting to divert from Fenris...

Edit: If that last point was direct at me then I'd suppose that means you haven't read my fanfic.

I wasn't the one claiming all elves are bi. And why wouldn't a bi Tamlen optionally be romantically inclined towards a male PC (who has the same exact history with Tamlen) than a female one? He's bi is he not?

Indeed it is. 

Really though I want some actual evidence that most elves are bi. Because I'm not seeing that. Anywhere. The only place I see things similar is in gay romantic novels. (And hell everyone/most people are usually gay/bi in those to begin with human and otherwise). I hear people continously make this claim but never back it up. 

[stephen1493]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

*Pops in*
I'm just going to input my two cents before you pull out the pitchforks and torches and come after me, but...

This subject = Needs to be dropped. It's becoming very much like reading the 1-9 Channel on RIFT, where they constantly debate which game is better, and then get into huge, irritating, childish fights over it that make you either want to turn off all chat for the next five minutes or log off until they're done.

So I'm simply going to say: This is getting old. Please drop the subject and find one that doesn't cause so much hostility. I really would like to see this thread survive to page 1000, and I would be ecstatic to see it go past March 8th.

*Goes back to writing page 1000 prompt*

This seems to be based more on logic, than YOU'RE WRONG AND ****ING RACIST!!

although one can quickly become the other...

[Girl in the Box]

catabuca wrote...

Do you know what, whether Anders or Fenris or both are bi LIs, someone somewhere is going to say it's stereotypical.

Me, I'm just going to look at them for what they are -- people -- and get on with enjoying the damn game.

Hear, hear!

Oh how I wish the getting on was a happening now...

[catabuca]

stephen1493 wrote...

While romantacizing ties in how we see someone it also connects what we see them doing.

For some fan's, seeing lithe Fenris in the arms of another man would harm how they've pictured him as such a mysterious man that completly blows them away.

Again , I can't make this clear enough, I iz not sexist.

stephen, honey ... how on earth does someone being gay or bi negate an air of mystery? I'm serious. How?

Are you suggesting only straight men can be mysterious? Really? Really?

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

stephen1493 wrote...

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

*Pops in*
I'm just going to input my two cents before you pull out the pitchforks and torches and come after me, but...

This subject = Needs to be dropped. It's becoming very much like reading the 1-9 Channel on RIFT, where they constantly debate which game is better, and then get into huge, irritating, childish fights over it that make you either want to turn off all chat for the next five minutes or log off until they're done.

So I'm simply going to say: This is getting old. Please drop the subject and find one that doesn't cause so much hostility. I really would like to see this thread survive to page 1000, and I would be ecstatic to see it go past March 8th.

*Goes back to writing page 1000 prompt*

This seems to be based more on logic, than YOU'RE WRONG AND ****ING RACIST!!

although one can quickly become the other...

Trust me, it's on the route for going that way. I've seen enough arguments on this thread and been in enough of them to know it. Plus I've seen enough of them in other places.

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 27 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[stephen1493]

Ryzaki wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
Sterotypical Not so much that because Bioware did one gay elf before, but that elves in fantasy are considered mostly as the fey people, and all that word accompanies.

Either way I will agree with you on the race argument that race doesn't mean everything, sarcasm aside, due to Bioware wrighting personalities that truly differed each person's character in DA:O

I would love to know which multiple elves (in comparison to all the works elves are in) that are bisexual so often as to become a sterotype.

The only elves being bi thing I've gotten was from boys who think anything that doesn't ooze testorone and rage is gay.

Well lets not forget all the elves who didn't tell us they were Bi in DA:O.

Just because you're the Warden doesn't mean that every elf in Fereldan has to walk up and tell us their true sexual orientation. For all we know Tamlen was bi.

In any case this is starting to divert from Fenris...

Edit: If that last point was direct at me then I'd suppose that means you haven't read my fanfic.

I wasn't the one claiming all elves are bi. And why wouldn't a bi Tamlen optionally be romantically inclined towards a male PC (who has the same exact history with Tamlen) than a female one? He's bi is he not?

Indeed it is. 

Really though I want some actual evidence that most elves are bi. Because I'm not seeing that. Anywhere. The only place I see things similar is in gay romantic novels. (And hell everyone/most people are usually gay/bi in those to begin with human and otherwise). I hear people continously make this claim but never back it up. 

It's cuz in those romantic novels is the only place where someone's sexual orientation really and truly matters.

Which is connected to this Fenris discussion in that this thread feels like one big romance novel (with pics in it!) and that most of the gals/guys in here will mostly connect Fenris with how he acts in his lovelife.

Modifié par stephen1493, 27 février 2011 - 04:54 .

[Ryzaki]

happy-emu wrote...
The very first thing a friend of mine said when they saw Fenris was to ask if he was the gay one. There IS a perceived stereotype to the male bisexuals of the game. A lot of people expect Fenris to be gay based on the fact that he's an elf, yes. I am not championing these people (and I'm not sure why you seem so eager to pick a fight) but I am saying that if Fenris IS bi, it feeds that kind of expectation. People would be, in general, more surprised to find out Anders is bisexual, and surprises (as long as they are in character with a solid story) make for good writing.

And who is this friend of yours? Male female? Age group? Though I'm not picking a fight. I'm getting sick of the "oh Fenris would be so much like Zev if he was bi." thing. It's irritating. 

You're coming off with the whole "race is all that matters" like I am the one who is spouting that all elves ARE bi, when I'm not. I am only (and repeatedly) saying it is what a LOT of people think, and it would be nice (in my opinion) to prove that wrong with Fenris.

No I was just saying it's not a BW sterotype. The bisexual rogue is closer to aBW sterotype. Though I do see where you are coming from. I don't agree with it. Anders in my case would be a much worse option. 

[Ryzaki]

stephen1493 wrote...
It's cuz in those romantic novels is the only place where someone's sexual orientation really and truly matters.

Which is connected to this Fenris discussion in that this thread feels like one big romance novel (with pics in it!) and that most of the gals/guys in here will mostly connect Fenris with how he acts in his lovelife.

Did you bother reading the word gay or did you just automaticaly skip over it? In most straight romance novels elves are straight. 

And I'm not saying "you're wrong.". I just don't agree with what you're saying. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[happy-emu]

RinjiRenee wrote...

happy-emu wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Funny, I didn't really pick up the bi vibe when he was talking about having a pretty girl at his side and all that.  And you are being horribly stereotypical.  I know plenty of straight guys that like cats.

If he's bisexual, why wouldn't he be talking about a pretty girl?

Oh great, so we get another bi romance where the man openly says he prefers women over men?  Yeesh.

There are a lot of bisexuals who began with one preference before ever thinking of exploring another. Naturally, at that stage Anders would have spoken about women, if that is where the majority (or whole?) of his experience was.

Back to Fenris, he definitely admired the woman in his short story. Even if he is the bi LI and openly admires women, it doesn't denote an absolute preference for them unless he, like Zevran, said so. And even Zevran seems quick to change his mind when romanced by a male warden.

[stephen1493]

catabuca wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

While romantacizing ties in how we see someone it also connects what we see them doing.

For some fan's, seeing lithe Fenris in the arms of another man would harm how they've pictured him as such a mysterious man that completly blows them away.

Again , I can't make this clear enough, I iz not sexist.

stephen, honey ... how on earth does someone being gay or bi negate an air of mystery? I'm serious. How?

Are you suggesting only straight men can be mysterious? Really? Really?

Gosh know, Have you played Enchanted Arms?

I'm just saying that it can hurt the mysterius inclanations of a romance figure.  Not because being gay is wrong, but because not everyone can be understanding of that.

Irregarddless I don't plan on romancing him one way or the other, so this doesn't pertain to me.

[plumededragop]

This is getting nowhere, because everyone is adding oil to the fire, instead of water. (sorry for the stupid image, but it's true)

Just like Girl in the Box, I'll just quote catabuca:

"whether Anders or Fenris or both are bi LIs, someone somewhere is going to say it's stereotypical.
Me, I'm just going to look at them for what they are -- people -- and get on with enjoying the damn game"

[LukaCrosszeria]

I want the next party part part I swear that typo was unintentional :innocent: of the smexy Fenris/M!Hawke comic.

Switching to a non-LI topic...I hope as a two-handed warrior Fenris will be more effective as Sten. I dono why, but he kept dying really fast in my party and it took him forever to swing that damn hammer.

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 27 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

plumededragop wrote...

This is getting nowhere, because everyone is adding oil to the fire, instead of water. (sorry for the stupid image, but it's true)

Just like Girl in the Box, I'll just quote catabuca:

"whether Anders or Fenris or both are bi LIs, someone somewhere is going to say it's stereotypical.
Me, I'm just going to look at them for what they are -- people -- and get on with enjoying the damn game"

I owe you all cookies. *Begins to pass plates of cookies to Catabuca, Girl in the Box, and Plume*

Modifié par Madame Rose Crimsynn, 27 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[Ryzaki]

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

I want the next party of the smexy Fenris/M!Hawke comic.

Switching to a non-LI topic...I hope as a two-handed warrior Fenris will be more effective as Sten. I dono why, but he kept dying really fast in my party and it took him forever to swing that damn hammer.

Well with the combat animations he should be faster. I'm not sure about durability though. Carver was always the first one  to die in my battles with the ogre. *sighs* Damn it Carver. 

I hope some of his sustained abilities will help with that. 

And is Indomitable still in? 

[LukaCrosszeria]

Hey there, you owe me cookies too!

[stephen1493]

Ryzaki wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
It's cuz in those romantic novels is the only place where someone's sexual orientation really and truly matters.

Which is connected to this Fenris discussion in that this thread feels like one big romance novel (with pics in it!) and that most of the gals/guys in here will mostly connect Fenris with how he acts in his lovelife.

Did you bother reading the word gay or did you just automaticaly skip over it? In most straight romance novels elves are straight. 

And I'm not saying "you're wrong.". I just don't agree with what you're saying. 

Well I'm getting a little uncomfortable with the sarcasm in this arguement so I'll stop now.

In the end, I'm just saying that in the end that perception isn't connected so much as to evidence as it does how one sees an orientation and race. And that unfortunatly not enough of the percent of the masses are ready to accept that being gay has nothing to do with how one can still be as completly as good as a character as if they were completly straight.

I suppose in the end, it is my view as a straght man that limits me as such. But just because I'm limited doesn't mean I'm completly wrong.

Modifié par stephen1493, 27 février 2011 - 05:03 .

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

Hey there, you owe me cookies too!

Bah, I got them first because they have the crux of what I was trying to say: "Shuddup and enjoy the game" + we posted about the same time.

*Hands Luka a plate of cookies as well*

[plumededragop]

YAY COOKIES!!! *take and eat* Thank you! *blew kiss*

I hope so, Luka. While Sten was dying a tad to easily for me, Oghren was much more resistant. Even though he was 100% 2H Weapon, I used him a lot as a tank (especially in Awakening, since I picked up Justice last) and he resisted pretty well. (thanks the maker for healing potion still , haha:whistle:)
I'm pretty sure he will to, if we upgrade his armour/weapon correctly.

Modifié par plumededragop, 27 février 2011 - 05:03 .

[stephen1493]

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

Hey there, you owe me cookies too!

Bah, I got them first because they have the crux of what I was trying to say: "Shuddup and enjoy the game" + we posted about the same time.

*Hands Luka a plate of cookies as well*

I suppose "jinx" means cookies in this thread. Not that I'm complaining.

NOM NOM NOM

[Ryzaki]

stephen1493 wrote...
Well I'm getting a little uncomfortable with the sarcasm in this arguement so I'll stop now.

In the end, I'm just saying that in the end that perception isn't connected so much as to evidence as it does how one sees an orientation. And that unfortunatly not enough of the percent of the masses are ready to accept that being gay has nothing to do with how one can still be as completly as good as a character as if they were completly straight.

I suppose in the end, it is my view as a straght man that limits me as such. But just because I'm limited doesn't mean I'm completly wrong.

Sarcasm? I wasn't be sarcastic. 

Indeed. And Anders could be seen as only being bisexual because he was infected by a demon. THat's a preconception many people have. I rather have the "oh gay elf" sterotype than "gay demon" personally. 

I hope you're no talking about how the majority of elves in DAO were bi then. Because that is completely wrong.