55380 réponses à ce sujet

[tankgirly]

Ryzaki wrote...

Though to be honest (and non-antagonistic for one) the mysterious Fenris to me wouldn't be one who would show Hawke his vulnerability. At all. He wouldn't cry in front of her, he wouldn't let himself be seen as anything other than a pillar of strength. He would rigidly control himself and be something Hawke can rely on at all times despite not being able to rely on her. He would be cold, impersonal. He would tell Hawke to continue on but never carry her, he would guard Hawke's back but never throw himself infront of her to shield her from a blow. He would be cruel to her to strengthen her.

And if he loved her he wouldn't tell her until after the Magister had been dealt with. (And frankly the ultimate mysterious Fenris wouldn't fall in love with Hawke to begin with). He would be like an aloof big brother type mentoring Hawke. The problems he has would be dealt privately and with very little outbursts. And the outburst he does have would never be around Hawke because he is her pillar and he cannot falter .

That's the ultimate mysterious tough guy.

And that to me is not romance material. YMMV of course.

Are you sure? Valen was that kind of person and he was definitely a romance material.

[Ryzaki]

tankgirly wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Though to be honest (and non-antagonistic for one) the mysterious Fenris to me wouldn't be one who would show Hawke his vulnerability. At all. He wouldn't cry in front of her, he wouldn't let himself be seen as anything other than a pillar of strength. He would rigidly control himself and be something Hawke can rely on at all times despite not being able to rely on her. He would be cold, impersonal. He would tell Hawke to continue on but never carry her, he would guard Hawke's back but never throw himself infront of her to shield her from a blow. He would be cruel to her to strengthen her.

And if he loved her he wouldn't tell her until after the Magister had been dealt with. (And frankly the ultimate mysterious Fenris wouldn't fall in love with Hawke to begin with). He would be like an aloof big brother type mentoring Hawke. The problems he has would be dealt privately and with very little outbursts. And the outburst he does have would never be around Hawke because he is her pillar and he cannot falter .

That's the ultimate mysterious tough guy.

And that to me is not romance material. YMMV of course.

Are you sure? Valen was that kind of person and he was definitely a romance material.

I have no interest in a romance that doesn't trust me enough to let me see that they're human. That they can be weak, stupid, foolish, that they make bad decisions, that they can cry, that they are scared. They have dreams, that their not perfect, so on. 

If they don't I might as well be romacing a rock. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 février 2011 - 08:17 .

[elirian_19]

Ryzaki wrote...

tankgirly wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Though to be honest (and non-antagonistic for one) the mysterious Fenris to me wouldn't be one who would show Hawke his vulnerability. At all. He wouldn't cry in front of her, he wouldn't let himself be seen as anything other than a pillar of strength. He would rigidly control himself and be something Hawke can rely on at all times despite not being able to rely on her. He would be cold, impersonal. He would tell Hawke to continue on but never carry her, he would guard Hawke's back but never throw himself infront of her to shield her from a blow. He would be cruel to her to strengthen her.

And if he loved her he wouldn't tell her until after the Magister had been dealt with. (And frankly the ultimate mysterious Fenris wouldn't fall in love with Hawke to begin with). He would be like an aloof big brother type mentoring Hawke. The problems he has would be dealt privately and with very little outbursts. And the outburst he does have would never be around Hawke because he is her pillar and he cannot falter .

That's the ultimate mysterious tough guy.

And that to me is not romance material. YMMV of course.

Are you sure? Valen was that kind of person and he was definitely a romance material.

I have no interest in a romance that doesn't trust me enough to let me see that they're human. That they can be weak, stupid, foolish, that they make bad decisions, that they can cry, that they are scared. They have dreams, that their not perfect, so on. 

If they don't I might as well be romacing a rock. 

This.

A man who's perfect, a trophy in other words, won't keep me (and by me I mean Hawke - male and female) warm at night.

[AstraDrakkar]

I agree that if a character doesn't have some sort of vunerabilitiy, it makes them uninteresting and less than human. I figure that when you first meet Fenris, he will present as a detached pillar of strength. Since this game spans a decade of time however, I think that is gonna change.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 28 février 2011 - 08:22 .

[happy-emu]

MorningBird wrote...

Gotta agree with that.  I was just curious about the context of the (15 page old?) debate because I'm rarely around for such things.

I can relate more to PC's having that kind of view because, as I mentioned, I prefer to play characters that have nothing to do with myself.  So from my perspective, playing a character with that kind of view/perspective is relatable.  The player finding Fenris' bisexuality as effeminate is more... confusing to me?  Partly because we do know so little about the character's history.

Any word on why Fenris being bi was seen as... less masculine?  You said it was already covered, but I... don't like digging through pages. >> Lazy, I know.

I can't even begin to cover everything (and I'm also too lazy to comb for links, lol) but one of the better points had to do with physical appearance. As a male elf, Fenris is a visually attractive counterpart to a female human, but he looks a little dwarfed (no pun intended) standing beside male Hawke and his uber buffness. The larger partner is usually seen as dominant (I am considering both height and breadth, and I know that my first impression of, say, a Qunari woman and a human man would be that she is physically dominant by an edge) and the smaller one is less so, which in men decreases people's concept of their masculinity (and in women has the opposite affect). It was debated that Anders, however, being physically on par with Hawke (he is quite the buff little mage) could be with M/Hawke and would aesthetically appear equal.

Anyway, short version: Fenris beside f/Hawke = he looks like the protector, and Fenris beside m/Hawke = he looks like the one being protected. Being protected instead of the protector appears by typical standards as less masculine.

I don't think him being bi descreases his masculinity or his mystery, but I do prefer the visual (art wise) of him with Hawkette. For me, they balance better, and going by the same artistic desire for balance, I prefer m/Hawke with Anders or Aveline (alas, the later isn't to be). Of course, my playthrough will have more to do with their personalities when it comes down to it. I should say that in some case, I prefer a good size difference, but it has a lot to do with how each character appears.

It's silly to place gender roles or top/bottom roles based on appearance, but visual impressions DO go far and everyone has a right to interpret them as they see fit. The debate went on for a while, and I think mostly it was agreed to disagree, though I was ridiculously tired at the time and my memory might be faulty.

[Ryzaki]

elirian_19 wrote..


This.

A man who's perfect, a trophy in other words, won't keep me (and by me I mean Hawke - male and female) warm at night.

And character's like that are just...boring. It works with side characters like Auron and Sten because they're supposed to be big brother/mentor types. It doesn't work too well with LIs. 

Like Squal. Poor poor Squall. Why did your characterization have to be mutilated beause of that damned romance?   

As for first meetings: Almost all BW's PCs are aloof first meetings mysterious or no. You don't have to be a mysterious tough guy for you not to shed your life story. Simply being a polite but private person (Like say Balthier) would accomplish the exact same thing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 février 2011 - 08:30 .

[EscherEnigma]

... wait, are you saying Fenris is being pwned by the friggin' *height rule*? What a load of bull ****. On so many levels.

[MorningBird]

happy-emu wrote...

I can't even begin to cover everything (and I'm also too lazy to comb for links, lol) but one of the better points had to do with physical appearance. As a male elf, Fenris is a visually attractive counterpart to a female human, but he looks a little dwarfed (no pun intended) standing beside male Hawke and his uber buffness. The larger partner is usually seen as dominant (I am considering both height and breadth, and I know that my first impression of, say, a Qunari woman and a human man would be that she is physically dominant by an edge) and the smaller one is less so, which in men decreases people's concept of their masculinity (and in women has the opposite affect). It was debated that Anders, however, being physically on par with Hawke (he is quite the buff little mage) could be with M/Hawke and would aesthetically appear equal.

Anyway, short version: Fenris beside f/Hawke = he looks like the protector, and Fenris beside m/Hawke = he looks like the one being protected. Being protected instead of the protector appears by typical standards as less masculine.

I don't think him being bi descreases his masculinity or his mystery, but I do prefer the visual (art wise) of him with Hawkette. For me, they balance better, and going by the same artistic desire for balance, I prefer m/Hawke with Anders or Aveline (alas, the later isn't to be). Of course, my playthrough will have more to do with their personalities when it comes down to it. I should say that in some case, I prefer a good size difference, but it has a lot to do with how each character appears.

It's silly to place gender roles or top/bottom roles based on appearance, but visual impressions DO go far and everyone has a right to interpret them as they see fit. The debate went on for a while, and I think mostly it was agreed to disagree, though I was ridiculously tired at the time and my memory might be faulty.

Aaahhh, okay, that makes more sense now.

So theoretically speaking, the opinion that Fenris is less masculine than M!Hawke (based on elven physique) could be cleared depending on how he behaves in game?

Sorry for all the questions.  xD

[happy-emu]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

I agree that if a character doesn't have some sort of vunerabilitiy, it makes them uninteresting and less than human. I figure that when you first meet Fenris, he will present as a detached pillar of strength. Since this game spans a decade of time however, I think that is gonna change.

This, sooo much. I see Fenris as taking a long time to trust Hawke as deeply as he needs to, and I am hoping his romance will be one of the more difficult ones (like getting Zevran to admit he wanted the warden as more than a sex partner.... that was rewarding to me).

No doubt he has some tragedies to share, and while I hope he doesn't up and spill it too easily, I AM hoping that he will divulge his secrets to Hawke at the appropriate time, not with a complete breakdown, but with enough emotion to show the damages done to him.

[AstraDrakkar]

Well, only 7 days, 20 hours, and 30 minutes left to wait.......

Aaaaaaaaaaggghhhhh.....the suspense is killing me

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 28 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[elirian_19]

Ryzaki wrote...

elirian_19 wrote..


This.

A man who's perfect, a trophy in other words, won't keep me (and by me I mean Hawke - male and female) warm at night.

And character's like that are just...boring. It works with side characters like Auron and Sten because they're supposed to be big brother/mentor types. It doesn't work too well with LIs. 

Like Squal. Poor poor Squall. Why did your characterization have to be mutilated beause of that damned romance?   

As for first meetings: Almost all BW's PCs are aloof first meetings mysterious or no. You don't have to be a mysterious tough guy for you not to shed your life story. Simply being a polite but private person (Like say Balthier) would accomplish the exact same thing. 

Oh, poor Squall. I hated that little "romance" with Rinoa. It made my teeth hurt with all the sugar and rainbows and puppies. I'm of the group of people who think she put a spell on him after she became a sorceress. It's the only way my brain can comprehend it. 

Anyway, back to Fenris. I'm looking forward to finding his flaws.

[happy-emu]

EscherEnigma wrote...

... wait, are you saying Fenris is being pwned by the friggin' *height rule*? What a load of bull ****. On so many levels.

As I clearly said, people are entitled to their opinions and first impressions. I also mentioned that breadth had to do with it as well. Dwarves don't appear as delicate as elves because what they lack in height, they make up in build. In either case, it's aesthetics. The personality will ultimately decide if someone is right or wrong about a character in their impressions.

[Ryzaki]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

I agree that if a character doesn't have some sort of vunerabilitiy, it makes them uninteresting and less than human. I figure that when you first meet Fenris, he will present as a detached pillar of strength. Since this game spans a decade of time however, I think that is gonna change.

It does. The whole appeal of mysterious tough guys is that they for the most part don't show the PC such a vulnerability. It's a bad idea for a romance. Awesome for mentors and big bros (because when they finally do show weakness it's usually before the epic death scene) but I've never seen it implemented well (or believeably) in a romance wthout feeling contrived and corny. 

Ah look the powerful and somber warrior was pulled out his shell by the perfectest girl ever who shines rainbows and ponies and everyone follows her despite the fact that she doesn't do anything to earn such trust and reliance! Yay! *gags* 

And then the decent action girls end up getting either pushed aside or the delicate perfectest girl gets the guy. <_< Sometimes both happen in the same story. Me disgusted? Nah. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 février 2011 - 08:41 .

[happy-emu]

MorningBird wrote...

Aaahhh, okay, that makes more sense now.

So theoretically speaking, the opinion that Fenris is less masculine than M!Hawke (based on elven physique) could be cleared depending on how he behaves in game?

Sorry for all the questions.  xD

Lol, it's np. I think that is probably the case. It's kind of like the straight vs bi debate; we have plenty of opinions but no concrete proof either way until the game comes out. And even then, people will still have preferences for fanart/fiction and still interpret things differently.

[Grumpy young man]

Since he as an elf isn't as "masculine" as manHawke appears to be I believe that is balanced by the increased dose of aggressiveness on his part.

[MorningBird]

happy-emu wrote...

Lol, it's np. I think that is probably the case. It's kind of like the straight vs bi debate; we have plenty of opinions but no concrete proof either way until the game comes out. And even then, people will still have preferences for fanart/fiction and still interpret things differently.

lol, yeah.

I'm a little sad that I actually miss all of the discussion that goes on in this thread. xD  It's like, the moment I turn in for the night, an epic conversation/debate is had, and I have to wade through pages of text to find it (and as we established previously, I am a lazy sod.)

So coming in here and reading some of the posts without context was very confusing.

STOP MOVING SO FAST, FENRIS THREAD.

[LukaCrosszeria]

The hatemance concludes continues! Feathers were lost! Hawke wears glasses to read! Fenris is a cheeky bastard! <3

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 28 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ryzaki]

elirian_19 wrote...

Oh, poor Squall. I hated that little "romance" with Rinoa. It made my teeth hurt with all the sugar and rainbows and puppies. I'm of the group of people who think she put a spell on him after she became a sorceress. It's the only way my brain can comprehend it. 

Anyway, back to Fenris. I'm looking forward to finding his flaws.

Gah Rinoa makes me cry. She's so damn...ugh. I was just like "OMG come on! Why her? Why?!?" And on Disc 3 I was bashing my head against the wall from the characterization rape. Yeah she brainwashed him. THat's the only thing that makes my head not hurt from the twisted logic. 

Yes. Me too.  I hope Hawke can poke his buttons in good fun of course.  And in return have his/her own buttons pushed.  Something that would help both of them improve. 

[EscherEnigma]

happy-emu wrote...

As I clearly said, people are entitled to their opinions and first impressions. I also mentioned that breadth had to do with it as well. Dwarves don't appear as delicate as elves because what they lack in height, they make up in build. In either case, it's aesthetics. The personality will ultimately decide if someone is right or wrong about a character in their impressions.

People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own realities.

And the problem with the height rule is that it seeks to impose the former on the latter.

And that, in my opinion, is bull ****.

[elirian_19]

Ryzaki wrote...

elirian_19 wrote...

Oh, poor Squall. I hated that little "romance" with Rinoa. It made my teeth hurt with all the sugar and rainbows and puppies. I'm of the group of people who think she put a spell on him after she became a sorceress. It's the only way my brain can comprehend it. 

Anyway, back to Fenris. I'm looking forward to finding his flaws.

Gah Rinoa makes me cry. She's so damn...ugh. I was just like "OMG come on! Why her? Why?!?" And on Disc 3 I was bashing my head against the wall from the characterization rape. Yeah she brainwashed him. THat's the only thing that makes my head not hurt from the twisted logic. 

Yes. Me too.  I hope Hawke can poke his buttons in good fun of course.  And in return have his/her own buttons pushed.  Something that would help both of them improve. 

Rinoa makes me want to gnaw on my wrists. I let her get lost in space a few times...

I seriously want Hawke to go up to Fenris and go, "Why so seriousss?" I will die of the lulz.

[Ryzaki]

elirian_19 wrote...
Rinoa makes me want to gnaw on my wrists. I let her get lost in space a few times... 

I seriously want Hawke to go up to Fenris and go, "Why so seriousss?" I will die of the lulz.

 

Only if Hawke does it with a swagger and then does the headtilt thing Joker does. That would be glorious. 

[Addai]

happy-emu wrote...

People around here sometimes tend to forget your original point and lock on to the fact that you, unlike the current majority, are not excited over a possibly bi Fenris. I have to say that it's kinda sad, and generally makes everyone with a different opinion feel attacked, singled out, or unwelcome. Some debate is warranted (it's a much better read for me than pic spamming rabbits) and some disagreements will be had, but it seems the point became belittling each other with some exceptions.

Thanks.  I'm aware of the dynamic, and especially since the LI announcement, if you aren't painting rainbows across every thread you're a homophobe.  I don't give a **** whether the LIs are bi and am pretty sick of the topic.  But glancing back I think it seemed I was targeting a particular project or people.  I haven't been paying enough attention to know who was working on what or why, and don't care.  Just seems to have been slash week on the Fenris thread, that's all.  lol  Commenting on it is not attacking it, as you point out.

Anyway, night all.

[RosaAquafire]

Aw, I think I'm the only person who loved Final Fantasy 8 BECAUSE of Squall and Rinoa instead of in spite of it. Personally, I'd be happy to play Hawke/Fenris like that. Yep, now everyone is gonna chase me out with pitchforks

[elirian_19]

Ryzaki wrote...

elirian_19 wrote...
Rinoa makes me want to gnaw on my wrists. I let her get lost in space a few times... 

I seriously want Hawke to go up to Fenris and go, "Why so seriousss?" I will die of the lulz.

 

Only if Hawke does it with a swagger and then does the headtilt thing Joker does. That would be glorious. 

I wonder if it's possible to create a Hawke who looks like Joker. That will be awesome.

[elirian_19]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Aw, I think I'm the only person who loved Final Fantasy 8 BECAUSE of Squall and Rinoa instead of in spite of it. Personally, I'd be happy to play Hawke/Fenris like that. Yep, now everyone is gonna chase me out with pitchforks

KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!