201 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

Hard to maintain the dark and gritty all the while insisting on making a hero out of the protagonist. Not saying it's impossible, but a heroic plot surely puts a damper on the dark and gritty flow of things. "The Blight was ended. But at what cost?" Yeah, right. The land was united, politics stabilized, a Grey Warden sacrificed at worst and a Grey Warden crowned at best. Sorry, Duncan, but cheesy narrative doesn't cut it. Technically it may be a dark fantasy, but saving the day in the end wipes any trace of dark when all is said and done.

Hell, first time I played through KotOR II, I felt like I aged two decades. About the same with PS:T. I figure it's Avellone's magic, but it also has a lot to do with the player character fighting their own battles and standing aside instead of greeting the cheerful fan crowd and being named the hero. Gaider once said, "No saving the world." Adds some measure of weight to these new "darker and grittier" claims.

Not sure how I think about the "sexier" part, though. Personally I feel worse and worse about the entire Hollywood mentality invading the RPG genre.

[Shady314]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
"The Blight was ended. But at what cost?" Yeah, right. The land was united, politics stabilized, a Grey Warden sacrificed at worst and a Grey Warden crowned at best. Sorry, Duncan, but cheesy narrative doesn't cut it.

Exactly. As far as the player can see Ferelden may be better off after the blight than it was before! Depending on how you played. You hear a lot of talk about this or that place being destroyed (Lothering being the best example) or this terrible thing happening but you are almost never shown it and when you are it's PG-13 at best. 

Modifié par Shady314, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

filaminstrel wrote...
(actually I've seen some Deep Space Nine, but I'm not much of a Trekkie, it didn't seem much different than TNG or Voyager)

The differences were subtle, if anything in Star Trek could be called that.

Darker: Themes explored, specific episodes.  Terrorism, suicidal martyrdom, total war.
Grittier:  A backwater run down second hand space station versus a top of the line, brand new starship.
Sexier:  Have you seen Dax? 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[errant_knight]

Y'know, not everyone wants to feel like they waded through poo at the end of a game.... That was kind of my point with the earlier comparison. If one wants to go a whole lot 'darker, grittier, and sexier', they're better off starting fresh than rebooting something with a large, existing fanbase.

[Shady314]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...
(actually I've seen some Deep Space Nine, but I'm not much of a Trekkie, it didn't seem much different than TNG or Voyager)

The differences were subtle, if anything in Star Trek could be called that.

In season 1 sure. But by the end DS9 was remarkably different (and better IMO) than any other Star Trek.

[Shady314]

errant_knight wrote...

Y'know, not everyone wants to feel like they waded through poo at the end of a game.... That was kind of my point with the earlier comparison. If one wants to go a whole lot 'darker, grittier, and sexier', they're better off starting fresh than rebooting something with a large, existing fanbase.

You don't have to wade through poo but if you want it to be dark you have to make people feel like they paid a price and worked for their happy ending. DA:O doesn't really have that. DA:O was supposed to be "darker, grittier, sexier" and ended up failing. Why wouldn't the sequel be a good place to try again?

[errant_knight]

Well, I don't agree that it failed, myself. And while it was styled a dark fantasy--which I think it was, heroic dark fantasy--it never was advertised as 'darker, grittier, and sexier. That's DA2. It was very popular, so there's resistance to the changes they want to make that wouldn't be there if they'd developed a new title. Any time you change a popular product drastically, you risk having that bite you on the butt.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't agree that it failed, myself. And while it was styled a dark fantasy--which I think it was, heroic dark fantasy--it never was advertised as 'darker, grittier, and sexier. That's DA2. It was very popular, so there's resistance to the changes they want to make that wouldn't be there if they'd developed a new title. Any time you change something drastically, you risk having that bite you on the butt.

That is probably because they had little to compare it to. And if you don't think that it was marketed as "dark, gritty and sexy" you're kidding yourself.

[errant_knight]

Herr Uhl wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't agree that it failed, myself. And while it was styled a dark fantasy--which I think it was, heroic dark fantasy--it never was advertised as 'darker, grittier, and sexier. That's DA2. It was very popular, so there's resistance to the changes they want to make that wouldn't be there if they'd developed a new title. Any time you change something drastically, you risk having that bite you on the butt.

That is probably because they had little to compare it to. And if you don't think that it was marketed as "dark, gritty and sexy" you're kidding yourself.

I don't remember those words being used, but I admit, I bought it based on a review that talked about the story , it's wrpg roots, and the tactical play, rather than paying attention to the advertising, and wasn't frequenting forums that would have brought me into contact with any of that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[errant_knight]

filaminstrel wrote...

They've said DA2 is still ultimately a heroic fantasy, for what it's worth.

Actually, that's worth a lot. And good to know.

[Shady314]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't agree that it failed, myself. And while it was styled a dark fantasy--which I think it was, heroic dark fantasy--it never was advertised as 'darker, grittier, and sexier. That's DA2. It was very popular, so there's resistance to the changes they want to make that wouldn't be there if they'd developed a new title. Any time you change a popular product drastically, you risk having that bite you on the butt.

Dark heroic fantasy where they forget to put in the dark yep.
 The tagline may not have been the exact same but DA:O was marketed as such (don't make me link the silly manson trailer that included Morrigan in bed) and was clearly trying to be dark it just failed in execution. It's extremely weird to say a sequel is a not a good place to try again,. Sequels are usually where you try to do better what you didn't do well the first time. They need a new IP to improve on their original attempt?

To me Dark HEROIC fantasy would be the Hedge Knight comic book. That's what I was hoping for in DA:O.

Modifié par Shady314, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[errant_knight]

Shady314 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't agree that it failed, myself. And while it was styled a dark fantasy--which I think it was, heroic dark fantasy--it never was advertised as 'darker, grittier, and sexier. That's DA2. It was very popular, so there's resistance to the changes they want to make that wouldn't be there if they'd developed a new title. Any time you change a popular product drastically, you risk having that bite you on the butt.

Dark heroic fantasy where they forget to put in the dark yep.
 The tagline may not have been the exact same but DA:O was marketed as such (don't make me link the silly manson trailer that included Morrigan in bed) and was clearly trying to be dark it just failed in execution. It's extremely weird to say a sequel is a not a good place to try again,. Sequels are usually where you try to do better what you didn't do well the first time. They need a new IP to improve on their original attempt?

To me Dark HEROIC fantasy would be the Hedge Knight comic book.

Again, I disagree with your assessment. I don't think it failed at all, so we might as well just agree to disagree.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Herr Uhl]

errant_knight wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

That is probably because they had little to compare it to. And if you don't think that it was marketed as "dark, gritty and sexy" you're kidding yourself.

I don't remember those words being used, but I admit, I bought it based on a review that talked about the story , it's wrpg roots, and the tactical play, rather than paying attention to the advertising, and wasn't frequenting forums that would have brought me into contact with any of that.

The marketing hammered on the dark and gritty aspect a lot. A lot. The sexy aspect was used to a lesser extent, but still present.

[Piecake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...
(actually I've seen some Deep Space Nine, but I'm not much of a Trekkie, it didn't seem much different than TNG or Voyager)

The differences were subtle, if anything in Star Trek could be called that.

Darker: Themes explored, specific episodes.  Terrorism, suicidal martyrdom, total war.
Grittier:  A backwater run down second hand space station versus a top of the line, brand new starship.
Sexier:  Have you seen Dax? 

I think there is a pretty big difference.  DS9 had story arcs, TNG and voyager(didnt watch much of this) were mostly episodic. 

[AlanC9]

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, what? Oh, that 70's show... No. Really that was far enough from most people's conciousnesses that I don't think it much figured into the audience for Galactica. Unlike the time frame involved  the stargate shows. Or potentially with Dragon Age. I'm thinking that if you wait 20 years between iterations, you can pretty much do what you want.

There were a few 70's BSG fans kicking around who made quite a fuss.  Sometimes the Syfy boards sounded like the "Disappointed with ME2" thread, except far less rational.

Google Languatron sometime for some cheap laughs. The guy eventually got so upset because other people didn't hate the new show as much as he did that he started his own message board  -- where he was the only person allowed to post. 

[Shady314]

errant_knight wrote...
Again, I disagree with your assessment, so we might as well just agree to disagree.

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what constitutes dark heroic fantasy (DHF)? What literature do you find to be dark heroic fantasy? As I said the Hedge Knight comic book is probably the best I've read when it comes to DHF. Unlike the more purely dark ASOIAF series.I'm not asking for the series to become grim dark. I appreciate moments of levity and happy endings. I just would like some gravitas to go with it.
 
To me DA:O failed to show the darkness of the world especially in a way that affected my character. The only one to come close is the city elf origin. The prejudice against my mage? Lasted about two seconds talking to the smithy at Ostagar. Things like that just really didn't live up to the promises Bio was making .

[Piecake]

Shady314 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Again, I disagree with your assessment, so we might as well just agree to disagree.

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what constitutes dark heroic fantasy (DHF)? What literature do you find to be dark heroic fantasy? As I said the Hedge Knight comic book is probably the best I've read when it comes to DHF. Unlike the more purely dark ASOIAF series.I'm not asking for the series to become grim dark. I appreciate moments of levity and happy endings. I just would like some gravitas to go with it.
 
To me DA:O failed to show the darkness of the world especially in a way that affected my character. The only one to come close is the city elf origin. The prejudice against my mage? Lasted about two seconds talking to the smithy at Ostagar. Things like that just really didn't live up to the promises Bio was making .

Well, the examples you used were caused by the limitations that the origin stories put on the narrative, so this might change in DA2

[Shady314]

Piecake wrote...
Well, the examples you used were caused by the limitations that the origin stories put on the narrative, so this might change in DA2

? No they weren't.

[FDrage]

Every sequel to a dark and gritty "universe" [Mantra-eske voice] is darker and grittier then before.[/Mantra-eske voice].

[Piecake]

Shady314 wrote...

Piecake wrote...
Well, the examples you used were caused by the limitations that the origin stories put on the narrative, so this might change in DA2

? No they weren't.

besides the occasional, 'hello elf', your origin really didnt matter at all - or the game really didnt register/acknowledge your origin - after Ostigar because making it so would have been extremely expensive/infeasable.  They had to make it a one-size fits all because of the origin stories

Your examples were examples of the later game not acknowledging your origin.

[Shady314]

Piecake wrote...Your examples were examples of the later game not acknowledging your origin.

 
Which has nothing to do with a "limitation imposed by origin stories on the narrative."

I see your argument but there is a lot wrong with it.

That's not a limitation imposed on the narrative. That's simply a failure of excecution by Bioware. The origin stories do not force the narrative to ignore the origins.This failure would give me hope for DA2 why? In ME there are no origins and only one race but there are backgrounds which don't really matter (despite being nothing more than a checkbox in character creation unlike the full fledged origins of DA) and mattered even less in ME2. Where's the hope for DA2 just because they've restricted your racial options?

Are you a dev for Bioware? If not you cannot honestly say what was sacrificed to achieve anything in the game anymore than I could. We were not privy to the internal development process.

I do agree with you on one thing though. Bioware has no excuses for not handling Hawke's origin well seeing as he has only one. DA2 had damn well better take into account your sisters apostaste status (and Hawke as well if you choose mage) or they lose what little claim they had to the dark and gritty tone they are trying to achieve.

Modifié par Shady314, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[Piecake]

Shady314 wrote...

Piecake wrote...Your examples were examples of the later game not acknowledging your origin.

 
Which has nothing to do with a "limitation imposed by origin stories on the narrative."

Really?  I think it has everything to do with it.  The limitation i was speaking of is that it is simply too expensive/time consuming to tailor-make the post-origin story to the origin that you chose.  Thats essentially making 6 games worth of content. 

Without the origins, we might be able to see people acting badly towards his refugee staus, apostate origns, etc

Edit: Ah, a miscommunication.  there arent any inherent limitations in different origin stories, the limit is purely financial/time.  If the devs had all the time and money in the world I would have loved to see your origins truly matter. 

Modifié par Piecake, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[Shady314]

Piecake wrote...
Really?  I think it has everything to do with it.  The limitation i was speaking of is that it is simply too expensive/time consuming to tailor-make the post-origin story to the origin that you chose.

Then you misspoke by saying narrative. I understand what you mean now though. You meant to say you believe the origins were so resource intensive Bioware was unable to fully support them past the convergence point of Ostagar.
That may be true but it's no excuse. It's not like Bioware was forced to include the origins. It was their idea and doing it well was their responsibility.

Thats essentially making 6 games worth of content.  

No it isn't. That's only true if I expected every single thing in the game to be different based on your origin. I did not. But I expected SOMEONE to care that I was a mage. A blood mage even. But no nothing. They did pretty well for elves actually. But really dropped the ball with the mage.

Without the origins, we might be able to see people acting badly towards his refugee staus, apostate origns, etc

I hope so too but I seriously doubt it. ME makes a big deal out of you being a Spectre and never mentions your background. I expect DA2 will make a big deal out of you being the Champion and ignore your origins. Or perhaps like in Origins it will only matter briefly at the beginning.

EDIT: (Repeated to stay on topic and because it was probably missed) I do agree with you on one thing though. Bioware has no excuses for not handling Hawke's origin well seeing as he has only one. DA2 had damn well better take into account your sisters apostaste status (and Hawke as well if you choose mage) or they lose what little claim they had to the dark and gritty tone they are trying to achieve.

Modifié par Shady314, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:27 .