201 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

Shady314 wrote...


Then you misspoke by saying narrative. I understand what you mean now though. You meant to say you believe the origins were so resource intensive Bioware was unable to fully support them past the convergence point of Ostagar.
That may be true but it's no excuse. It's not like Bioware was forced to include the origins. It was their idea and doing it well was their responsibility.

I wasnt saying it to excuse bioware, just a reason why it wasnt, and why DA2 can change that

[Shady314]

Piecake wrote...
I wasnt saying it to excuse bioware, just a reason why it wasnt, and why DA2 can change that

All right. You're more optimistic than me. I think Bioware could go a long way in making DA2 darker and grittier if they handle your sisters apostate status (and possibly Hawke's) appropriately. It's my understanding Kirkwall has a strong Templar presence. If that is ignored then DA2 will be a joke to me.

Modifié par Shady314, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Piecake]

Shady314 wrote...

Piecake wrote...
I wasnt saying it to excuse bioware, just a reason why it wasnt, and why DA2 can change that

All right. You're more optimistic than me. I think Bioware could go a long way in making DA2 darker and grittier if they handle your sisters apostate status (and possibly Hawke's) appropriately. It's my understanding Kirkwall has a strong Templar presence. If that is ignored then DA2 will be a joke to me.

I'd agree with that.  I mean, they have stated that their goal was to make a more personalized story - to tell the story of Hawke.  If they ignore such personal details as family and status then I wouldnt call it a very personal story

[errant_knight]

AlanC9 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, what? Oh, that 70's show... No. Really that was far enough from most people's conciousnesses that I don't think it much figured into the audience for Galactica. Unlike the time frame involved  the stargate shows. Or potentially with Dragon Age. I'm thinking that if you wait 20 years between iterations, you can pretty much do what you want.

There were a few 70's BSG fans kicking around who made quite a fuss.  Sometimes the Syfy boards sounded like the "Disappointed with ME2" thread, except far less rational.

Google Languatron sometime for some cheap laughs. The guy eventually got so upset because other people didn't hate the new show as much as he did that he started his own message board  -- where he was the only person allowed to post. 

Heh... That's actually quite funny, in a sad sort of way.

[errant_knight]

Shady314 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Again, I disagree with your assessment, so we might as well just agree to disagree.

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what constitutes dark heroic fantasy (DHF)? What literature do you find to be dark heroic fantasy? As I said the Hedge Knight comic book is probably the best I've read when it comes to DHF. Unlike the more purely dark ASOIAF series.I'm not asking for the series to become grim dark. I appreciate moments of levity and happy endings. I just would like some gravitas to go with it.
 
To me DA:O failed to show the darkness of the world especially in a way that affected my character. The only one to come close is the city elf origin. The prejudice against my mage? Lasted about two seconds talking to the smithy at Ostagar. Things like that just really didn't live up to the promises Bio was making .

I figure it's a definition issue, too. I don't know the comic you mentioned, so I comment on it, but let's just say I'd rather watch Supernatural that BSG. More funny and heroic with my grim, you know? Thing is, destroying the soul of an unborn child is about as dark as I want to go, really. I did think that being a blood mage should have had serious negative consequences, though.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Xewaka]

filaminstrel wrote...

They've said DA2 is still ultimately a heroic fantasy, for what it's worth.

Ah! So the ripped barechested horny men in tight leather trousers and thong-flaunting E-cup sized women are a homage to the artists of Conan comics?

EDIT: At this point, I ought to mention that in the original stuff (Howard's stories) Conan actually wore whatever got the job done, and that meant sensible armor. When a mercenary, he used brigandine; when a pirate, he used padded cloth, I think. The loincloth and sword thing rarely was present on the stories.

Modifié par Xewaka, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Shady314]

errant_knight wrote...
I figure it's a definition issue, too. I don't know the comic you mentioned, so I comment on it, but let's just say I'd rather watch Supernatural than BSG. More funny and heroic with my grim, you know? I did think that being a blood mage should have had serious negative consequences, though.

I'm a fan of Supernatural. 
Hedge Knight is the story of a very good and ethical knight in a world that is not so good or ethical. He's also not very educated and naive. But he manages to do good things. You may want to check it out. Not a long read. Not too funny but terribly heroic actually.

? Thing is, destroying the soul of an unborn child is about as dark as I want to go, really.

Yeah exactly. We needed more Dark Ritual moments. I don't know if you meant once was enough but I am interpreting you to mean that you don't want any darker than that and I agree. To me the Dark Ritual was the only moment with the right level of ambiguity. Where I really had to stop and think.
 I would just like some more moments with no clear cut right or wrong. Some people loved Morrigan and trusted her and wanted to live so they do it. Some didn't trust her and chose to sacrifice themselves or Ali/Loghain. People still argue about which was the "right" choice. I would like more moments like that.

[Vylan Antagonist]

When I heard dark and gritty, I think harsh, realistic, unsentimental, bleak and quite probably depressing. In the context of fantasy, the closest fit seem to be Thieves World, the Black Company, Game of Thrones, Malazan, most of Robin Hobb's work and the Locke Lamora series. Characters tend to be morally conflicted and flawed. No good deed goes unpunished. Seemingly well-intentioned actions lead to domino effects and ultimately tragic repercussions.



While the art style in DA:O was slightly generic, I think it still largely helped contribute to a dark tone. Characters lacked comic-book proportions. Features were relatively normalized; Morrigan and Leliana were pretty, but not flawless supermodels, and the villain, Loghain, looked hard and haggard, not like some bishojo ubermensch. Ghouls and the darkspawn were frightening looking. The broodmother and the children, well... Nightmare fodder, to borrow from TVtropes, is pretty apt, I think. The cities and hamlets could have been grunged up a bit... More stained thatch and crumbling wattle, more dilapidated fences and broken stonework, more grunge and miasma, But it worked. It didn't actively work against a dark tone. And in the narrative, those aspects of darkness were present. Making the 'right' choice with the dwarven succession resulted in unforeseen negative consequences. The dark ritual, as mentioned earlier, was a means of killing your child's soul and perpetually unleashing evil strictly to slightly prolong your own life (as the Calling would soon enough take hold). Branka's Forge. Connor's fate. Dealing with Loghain. I think DA:O largely succeeded at their intent in creating a dark fantasy story and world.



DA2.... looks like it will be more of an uphill battle. The art style and animation actively work against it. The Rule of Cool has obviously been invoked and it uneasily coexists with gritty and dark. The movie adaptation of Watchmen was an excellent example of this conflict; Snyder stuck pretty closely to the story (obviously adapting the ending), but the fight scenes were re-envisioned in his 300-style hyper-dramatized form. Costumes, instead of obviously being cloth, were rubberized. Ozymandius... Ugh. Don't even get me started on Ozymandius. In making these stylistic changes, he heavily undermined a great deal of what the story set out to create in terms of its gritty portrayal of superheroes. It still kinda worked, overall, but I feel a good portion of the impact was lessened.



I hope that DA2 will continue to offer complex morality in the storyline itself. I just happen to feel that the art style and animation really don't do the author's any favors in helping them to fulfill that goal.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Shady314 wrote...

Hedge Knight is the story of a very good and ethical knight in a world that is not so good or ethical. He's also not very educated and naive. But he manages to do good things. You may want to check it out. Not a long read. Not too funny but terribly heroic actually.

And Dunk's entire storyline causes the death of someone very decent and noble, with ultimately terrible repercussions for the entire kingdom for decades to come.

[Rikudou Sennin]

now if only we had the FCC song from family guy it would make my day (lol)

[crimzontearz]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Oh good. We're having this discussion again. I really didn't get enough of the, "What does dark and gritty mean?" before Origins shipped.

ok.....

this kinda gets me Mary, you know I wuv you and all but what's the point of your marketing shoving "YEAH! it's darker grittier and sexier!!!1!111!!!ONE" down our throats at every turn if no one explains the meaning behind it?

I mean DAO was marketed as dark, gritty and sexy (sex and violence trailer anyone).....so DA2 is more so but in what way?

why is it not addressed by anyone?

[Ziggeh]

crimzontearz wrote...

this kinda gets me Mary, you know I wuv you and all but what's the point of your marketing shoving "YEAH! it's darker grittier and sexier!!!1!111!!!ONE" down our throats at every turn if no one explains the meaning behind it?

I imagine it's because it's something marketing say rather than anything the writers actually adhere to.

Plus, all three are massively subjective.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 17 décembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Wulfram]

Bioware games are pretty much Bioware games, in terms of darkness and grittyness.

[crimzontearz]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

this kinda gets me Mary, you know I wuv you and all but what's the point of your marketing shoving "YEAH! it's darker grittier and sexier!!!1!111!!!ONE" down our throats at every turn if no one explains the meaning behind it?

I imagine it's because it's something marketing say rather than anything the writers actually adhere to.

Plus, all three are massively subjective.

which even more warrants the need for an explanation for god's sake!

[Ziggeh]

crimzontearz wrote...

which even more warrants the need for an explanation for god's sake!

Not sure why. They're saying it's more awesome too, falls into the same category.

[Shady314]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
And Dunk's entire storyline causes the death of someone very decent and noble, with ultimately terrible repercussions for the entire kingdom for decades to come.

Wow nice spoilers.
Did you have a point or did you just want to tell everyone part of the first comic?

[Da_Lion_Man]

Darker, grittier, enough of that ****!

[Vylan Antagonist]

Shady314 wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
And Dunk's entire storyline causes the death of someone very decent and noble, with ultimately terrible repercussions for the entire kingdom for decades to come.

Wow nice spoilers.
Did you have a point or did you just want to tell everyone part of the first comic?

Don't blow a gasket, Shady. First of all, I never read the 'comic'. I read the short story. Second, the thread is about 'darker, grittier, sexier'. I was illustrating how The Hedge Knight fits the bill of unintended consequences and No Good Deed Goes Unpunished. Hopefully those dots are connected enough for you to grasp the relevance now. Finally, I didn't say WHICH character died. It was pretty vague, and in fact, the full consequences are not spelled out in the story at all. You have to be familiar with the Song of Fire and Ice to begin to understand, and even then, you need to draw the conclusions on your own. So, in summary, get that sand out.

[crimzontearz]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

which even more warrants the need for an explanation for god's sake!

Not sure why. They're saying it's more awesome too, falls into the same category.

because  while something on the lines of "combat is not faster and there is no more shuffling" is somewhat self explanatory, "darker grittier and sexier" is not....and it is constantly shoved our way as a mean to tell us the setting and flavor of the game has improved yet with no explanation on the subject it could very well mean anything and it seems people (devs) are unwilling to elaborate for one reason or another. 

[Ziggeh]

crimzontearz wrote...
because  while something on the lines of "combat is not faster and there is no more shuffling" is somewhat self explanatory, "darker grittier and sexier" is not

I think they are, but fair enough.

[Shady314]

Don't blow a gasket, Shady.

?? Um ok.
I guess you interpreted the wow pretty heavily there.

First of all, I never read the 'comic'. I read the short story.

Their the same.

Second, the thread is about 'darker, grittier, sexier'. I was illustrating how The Hedge Knight fits the bill of unintended consequences and No Good Deed Goes Unpunished. Hopefully those dots are connected enough for you to grasp the relevance now. Finally, I didn't say WHICH character died. It was pretty vague, and in fact, the full consequences are not spelled out in the story at all. You have to be familiar with the Song of Fire and Ice to begin to understand, and even then, you need to draw the conclusions on your own. So, in summary, get that sand out.

We'll have to agree to disagree on how clever and vague your spoiler was. I think though that if someone knew the characters your description makes it rather obvious the further they get into the tale.
? Except Dunk also does good deeds that work out well for him. Like taking on his squire. It's not a never ending river of poo if that's what you were trying to get at. I am still unsure what your point was in relation to what errant and I were talking about.
Sand? Not familiar with the expression.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Shady314 wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on how clever and vague your spoiler was. I think though that if someone knew the characters your description makes it rather obvious the further they get into the tale.

Okay, chief. Clearly if someone is familiar with the characters, there's only one that is noble and must therefore be the one that dies. I could go through a litany of characters I could have been referring to (but wasn't), but that would actually be a spoiler. So go ahead and stick to your faux outrage.

The point being, GRRM's Westeros was cited as an influence on Dragon Age. The Hedge Knight is set before ASoI&F,  but in the same world. It clearly fits the bill for Dark and Gritty, but even the vaguest references to why may cause Shady314 consternation, so take our word for it.

At the risk of further spoiling it, Dunk does not flip off of horses, throw his sword through opponents, then catch it on the other side. If he did, that would probably slightly undermine the gritty and dark tone.

[crimzontearz]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
because  while something on the lines of "combat is not faster and there is no more shuffling" is somewhat self explanatory, "darker grittier and sexier" is not

I think they are, but fair enough.

ok.....what do you consider "dark"?...or let's make a more approachable example

Sexier

I can consider a lot of things sexy but to you or someone else they may be not sexy at all.
Is Isabela sexy? is Aveline? Why are they? A lot of the girl on girl female fans here consider Aveline as sexy (Maria even went out of her way to euphemize the romance scene......that was good)  because of how they imagine her possible interactions with their fem!hawke based on their sexual preferences and what THEY consider moving, sexy, alluring, satisfying and so on and so forth. Would that work for others? would their tastes suit some of the guys? no....most probably not. 
Take Isabela, some guys find her ........uhm.......curvaceous proportions the sexy part about her, others find her flaunting them a turn off. I, for instance, find the idea that I MIGHT be able to turn her from a casual lover to someone devoted to me far sexier under a purely conceptual point of view (what can I say, I'm a guy and I am possessive).
So what do the DEVS consider sexy? what do the writers consider sexy? what about the PRs? how does that reflect on the statement "we are making the game sexier"? no one can tell because "sexy" is something different, if slightly in some cases, for everyone.

so an explanation would be appreciated.

[The Lyons]

One has to keep in mind that "Oh the world sucks and everything is terrible" does not equate to maturity thematically. What it DOES equate to is an adolescent sense of true darkness. In this sense, the darkspawn were not especially dark at all. They were about as straight, comical evil as anything in the Power Rangers. The broodmother bit was about as good as it got there, but that was because it actually used writing techniques such as foreshadowing unlike much of the rest of the game. This is jarring considering foreshadowing is one of the most basic of story telling techniques.

[Vylan Antagonist]

The Lyons wrote...

One has to keep in mind that "Oh the world sucks and everything is terrible" does not equate to maturity thematically. What it DOES equate to is an adolescent sense of true darkness. In this sense, the darkspawn were not especially dark at all. They were about as straight, comical evil as anything in the Power Rangers.

In DA:O, the Darkspawn were unrelentingly evil and destructive, but not comically so: They weren't strapping heroines to train tracks or engaging in any similar overblown villainy. They were simply a raw destructive force. However, they also weren't necessarily the 'main enemy'. Loghain was the more nuanced villain who allowed the wardens and the warden-supporting king to be annhilated. DA:A added depth to the Darkspawn, demonstrating in-game what had already been revealed in the novels; Darkspawn are compelled to unearth the Old Gods. When they succeed, they blindly adhere to the archdemon's bidding. They are pawns, in other words. The Architect sought to free them from that mindless compulsion, giving them some means of self-determination. You, as the player, had the choice to allow them to start to free themselves (even though they might continue to do evil afterwards) or to extinguish that spark of intelligence and that hope of self-direction. Personally, I think that's a pretty good 'dark and gritty' choice.