148 réponses à ce sujet

[snfonseka]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

So, Aria, the despotic ruler of Omega with at least as much blood on her hands as TIM is ok because she doesn't oppress non-Asari? Also, where has TIM ever metioned, even once, that he wants to oppress those who are not human?

Aria is the only stability Omega has. She doesn't murder or torture innocents (like Cerberus). She fights against other merc gangs.

If Aria starts to abduct innocent humans and experiments on them in order to create a biological weapon (with possible permanent damage)...you would be right.  Project Trapdoor didn't advance humanity, it was anti-alien...designed to take biotic abilities of asari away.

Isn't this nice? I mean... trying to justify the activities of a crime lord. "She fights against other merc gangs" - for what? to save the innocents from them? or because they are her competition? and why do you think she is better than those mercs? She is the "god father" of crime.

Back to the topic: Since we are discussing about the fate of TIM, all I like to see a change of leadership for Cerberus and the new leader should be Shepard (there should be an option for this in ME3).

[Xerxes52]

Paragon: Toss him in prison and dismantle Cerberus.



Neutral: Kill him and dismantle Cerberus.



Renegade: Kill him and take over Cerberus.

[Barquiel]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

When TIM says "Cerberus is humanity" he means it figuratively. Cerberus is an organizational manifestation of humanity's will to better itself.

And this is not megalomaniac? A single individual who thinks he has the best answer for humanity?

Be that as it may, if Aria needs help to revenge Liselle death....she doesn't have to ask my Shep twice.

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

When TIM says "Cerberus is humanity" he means it figuratively. Cerberus is an organizational manifestation of humanity's will to better itself.

And this is not megalomaniac? A single individual who thinks he has the best answer for humanity?

Be that as it may, if Aria needs help to revenge Liselle death....she doesn't have to ask my Shep twice.

Something tells me that if there is more good business to conduct with Cerberus, Aria won't have time for revenge.

[BattleRaptor]

everyone supporting him.



Dont spose ANY of you have considered that HE SOLD Shepard out to the Collectors the FIRST time round...



Its just the KIND of thing he would do

ENgineer the Destruction of the Normandy... revive shepard and get his help because shepard is grateful for the help.



Sure he may have saved your life... but based on his SOP... Standard Operating Procedure... he proberly was the one that indirectly got you killed in the first place.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

When TIM says "Cerberus is humanity" he means it figuratively. Cerberus is an organizational manifestation of humanity's will to better itself.

And this is not megalomaniac? A single individual who thinks he has the best answer for humanity?

Be that as it may, if Aria needs help to revenge Liselle death....she doesn't have to ask my Shep twice.

By that argument, any person in any role of leadership is a megalomaniac. Someone has to take charge. His ideals are noble. He seems a pretty good fit to me.

Also, as of the end of Retribution, I believe Aria is still under the impression that Grayson killed Liselle.

[Ajara123]

I havent decided what to do with him.

I would say it depends on if im paragon or renegade

[Deathwurm]

It's obvious to everyone here that SOMETHING's not quite right with TIM...
I'm wondering if he's even Human, or a Biological entity at all. Sure, he has a lot of bad habits, but they are all things that could be for show...
I really have nothing to back that up with & I haven't played "Shadow Broker" so I'm not sure if there are any "reveals" in that...

[LiquidGrape]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Again, please provide any evidence that TIM is xenophobic. Pro humanity != anti-alien.

Mass Effect: Retribution - Chapter One wrote...

[...] The alliance had come down hard on the former lieutenant, making an example of him. He was stripped of his rank and sentenced to 20 years in military prison. Kai Leng's long list of documented confrontational and even violent behaviour toward aliens had no doubt contributed to the harshness of his sentence. For the Illusive Man however, his anti-alien leanings were proof of character.

There you go.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 17 décembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[rohanphilip]

Deathwurm wrote...

It's obvious to everyone here that SOMETHING's not quite right with TIM...
I'm wondering if he's even Human, or a Biological entity at all. Sure, he has a lot of bad habits, but they are all things that could be for show...
I really have nothing to back that up with & I haven't played "Shadow Broker" so I'm not sure if there are any "reveals" in that...

The Liar of the shadow broker has just a very tiny bit of the illusive man, if you look at the terminals at the shadow broker's base.But i hear that Mass effect : Evolution a comic by dark horse will look into the origins of the illusive man so that should give us an idea of where he is coming from, and hopefully what he is capable of i think the comic is releasing on Jan 18 

[Dean_the_Young]

BattleRaptor wrote...

everyone supporting him.

Dont spose ANY of you have considered that HE SOLD Shepard out to the Collectors the FIRST time round...

Its just the KIND of thing he would do
ENgineer the Destruction of the Normandy... revive shepard and get his help because shepard is grateful for the help.

Sure he may have saved your life... but based on his SOP... Standard Operating Procedure... he proberly was the one that indirectly got you killed in the first place.

Yes BattleRaptor.

TIM, having decided that Shepard is very important to Humanity and directly tasking one of his most trusted subordinates to ensure Shepard's continued existence, immediately goes behind her back and gets Shepard killed by the Collectors in an attack that may well have entirely vaporized his body beyond all recover. Instead, by chance, his body lost in space and beyond all means of recovery. Then TIM, all according to his divine plan, was prepared to wait an indefinite amount of time until the greatest secret organization in the galaxy found Shepard, chose interven using an alien to recover Shepard's corpose (intervening against the very people he hired to kill Shepard, no less, rather than simply paying them to hand over the body), and brought Shepard's cold, dead corpse back to Cerberus, so that he could proceed to nearly bankrupt Cerberus in an attempt to defy nature and perform an unknown, highly-experiemental process to bring Shepard back from the dead with no prior-proof or evidence that (a) Shepard would come back the same or ( Shepard could even be brought back from the dead at all, refused to implant any sort of control chip to compel obedience if needed, all so that Shepard could taken to a remote colony where, by pure chance, he'd run into proof that Cerberus wasn't jumping at shadows and might voluntarily choose to join forces with Cerberus as a completely autonomous actor as opposed to saying '**** you guys, I'm going back to the Council.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 décembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[Severyx]

SPOILERS: The Illusive Man kills Tali

[Dean_the_Young]

LiquidGrape wrote...

There you go.

You realize nothing you quoted gave TIM's own view, correct?

Racism and flaws in others can be an objective asset in being able to rely on them to increasing extremes. It's a large part of 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' thinking. Kai being mildly xenophobic means that (a) he puts humanity first, which is good from TIM's POV, and ( that he'll certainly be far less likely to turn against Cerberus in favor of aliens, which is also good from TIM's POV.  Kai's xenophobia is a virtue from TIM's viewpoint, and can be for entirely objective reasons.

It does not autocorrelate to TIM being a total xenophobe on his part.

[LiquidGrape]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You realize nothing you quoted gave TIM's own view, correct?

Racism and flaws in others can be an objective asset in being able to rely on them to increasing extremes. It's a large part of 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' thinking. Kai being mildly xenophobic means that (a) he puts humanity first, which is good from TIM's POV, and ( that he'll certainly be far less likely to turn against Cerberus in favor of aliens, which is also good from TIM's POV.  Kai's xenophobia is a virtue from TIM's viewpoint, and can be for entirely objective reasons.

It does not autocorrelate to TIM being a total xenophobe on his part.

Not necessarily, no. But I wouldn't say it's a very ambiguous issue either.
If he was simply referring to Leng's xenophobia as indicative of his usefulness to the organisation, I doubt "character" would've been the operative word.

[Dean_the_Young]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You realize nothing you quoted gave TIM's own view, correct?

Racism and flaws in others can be an objective asset in being able to rely on them to increasing extremes. It's a large part of 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' thinking. Kai being mildly xenophobic means that (a) he puts humanity first, which is good from TIM's POV, and ( that he'll certainly be far less likely to turn against Cerberus in favor of aliens, which is also good from TIM's POV.  Kai's xenophobia is a virtue from TIM's viewpoint, and can be for entirely objective reasons.

It does not autocorrelate to TIM being a total xenophobe on his part.

Not necessarily, no. But I wouldn't say it's a very ambiguous issue either.
If he was simply referring to Leng's xenophobia as indicative of his usefulness to the organisation, I doubt "character" would've been the operative word.

Why not? It works. TIM already has a non-conventional view of morality in the first place, and we know that character flaws don't disaude him in the first place.

[Zulu_DFA]

Severyx wrote...

SPOILERS: The Illusive Man kills Tali

By exhaling his smoke underneath her mask.

[Zulu_DFA]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Again, please provide any evidence that TIM is xenophobic. Pro humanity != anti-alien.

Mass Effect: Retribution - Chapter One wrote...

[...] The alliance had come down hard on the former lieutenant, making an example of him. He was stripped of his rank and sentenced to 20 years in military prison. Kai Leng's long list of documented confrontational and even violent behaviour toward aliens had no doubt contributed to the harshness of his sentence. For the Illusive Man however, his anti-alien leanings were proof of character.

There you go.

The official Alliance policy at the time was "Love the aliens, now!" Kai Leng defied this political BS, did not accept a socially approved behavior just because the extranetz told him to, demonstrating strong will and independent thinking. Proof of character.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Severyx wrote...

SPOILERS: The Illusive Man kills Tali

I think I would just laugh. I don't even recruit her with my canon Shep. I don't know why I'd need (or want) some random Quarian on my ship with no real combat training.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Again, please provide any evidence that TIM is xenophobic. Pro humanity != anti-alien.

Mass Effect: Retribution - Chapter One wrote...

[...] The alliance had come down hard on the former lieutenant, making an example of him. He was stripped of his rank and sentenced to 20 years in military prison. Kai Leng's long list of documented confrontational and even violent behaviour toward aliens had no doubt contributed to the harshness of his sentence. For the Illusive Man however, his anti-alien leanings were proof of character.

There you go.

The key word there is "leanings." Kai Leng is simply pissed that the Alliance is all buddy buddy with the aliens (proof: the treasonous Anderson in Retribution), when humans should be looking out for themselves. It's not his hatred of aliens that drives him, it's his hatred of current human-alien relations and his recognition that humans need to be more autonomous. His "crimes" weren't even that bad, the book explains that he got such a harsh sentence because of his political views and to serve as an example. He was an example of how much Alliance leadership wants to get in bed with the council races.

[Blarty]

What would be interesting is if TIM, isn't just involved in ME3, but absolutely integral in nearly everything from ME1 to the end of ME3 and the game reveals his tinkering in Shephard's affairs even as far back as his origin story (War Hero, Sole Survivor,etc), and as a final twist in the tale.... he isn't actually human, his point of furthering mankind's position in the galaxy was not an offensive goal, but that he somehow knew the Reapers were coming, and instead needed the 'end justify the means' type ruthless efficiency to have any hope of preparing humanity for it's role in the coming conflict.

[thachugabug]

TIM fully represents what a renagade is: Get it done, no matter the cost

[XzorshTheConqueror]

I like the idea of Shepherd taking over Cerberus, and I don't think it would necessarily be a renegade decision. Even a paragon Shepherd saw the good side of Cerberus, and that were decent people involved with the organization. It would be reasonable for a paragon Shepherd to recognize the need for Cerberus; only that the organization needs to be under new management.

Also, I think taking over Cerberus would make an interesting element in Mass Effect 3. You could use Cerberus's poltical operatives and resources to manipulate the various governments of the galaxy to be under your influence and commit to fighting the Reapers. The Shadow Broker's dossier on Cerberus shows that they have connections with alien governments, or at least TIM is corresponding with people on the Turian and Asari homeworlds, in addition to the Migrant Fleet.

You could also use Cerberus's various science cells to commit to developing anti-Reaper technology, and no doubt be challenged with several moral decisions, especially if you are trying to lead a paragon Cerberus.

Modifié par XzorshTheConqueror, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

I like the idea of Shepherd taking over Cerberus, and I don't think it would necessarily be a renegade decision. Even a paragon Shepherd saw the good side of Cerberus, and that were decent people involved with the organization. It would be reasonable for a paragon Shepherd to recognize the need for Cerberus; only that the organization needs to be under new management.

If Cerberus gets "paragonized" it loses everything that sets it apart from the Alliances other ineffective groups.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

I like the idea of Shepherd taking over Cerberus, and I don't think it would necessarily be a renegade decision. Even a paragon Shepherd saw the good side of Cerberus, and that were decent people involved with the organization. It would be reasonable for a paragon Shepherd to recognize the need for Cerberus; only that the organization needs to be under new management.

If Cerberus gets "paragonized" it loses everything that sets it apart from the Alliances other ineffective groups.

I do not agree with that, I feel that there's room for an independant organization that does good in the galaxy (from a paragon perspective) but recognizes that the Alliance and the Council are sometimes too shortsighted/unwilling to fight the true enemy.

Or at least my paragon Shep is privately jaded with the Council even though he publicly defends them to promote humanity's participation in the galatic community.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

I do not agree with that, I feel that there's room for an independant organization that does good in the galaxy (from a paragon perspective) but recognizes that the Alliance and the Council are sometimes too shortsighted/unwilling to fight the true enemy.

Or at least my paragon Shep is privately jaded with the Council even though he publicly defends them to promote humanity's participation in the galatic community.

Cerberus would lose its funding if they "fell in line" with the Systems Alliance leadership. Cerberus' donors no doubt are fed up with humans catering to their new alien bosses, and they are more than happy to fund a group that hates that mentality. That mentality is the paragon mentality.