549 réponses à ce sujet

[Ladybright]

Ryzaki wrote...

No offense but why are you playing DAO on a CRT Tv anyways? Wouldn't a good 22" HDTV cost about the same price as an Xbox?

Really though the icons shouldn't be increased on the PC version for people with outdated TVs. That's just not right.

You assume that I bought the Xbox. I share an Xbox with my brother when I am home, and the Xbox itself was a gift. I am a university student. Right now I have neither access to an HDTV nor money for one.

And I never said icons should be increased for people with old TVs. No one else did, either. You are battling a straw man.

TeenZombie wrote...

To me, it looks like it belongs in a flash game.  Yeah, it's subjective
that I don't think it looks good, but if you've read up on things like
color and design theory, and there are reasons why people prefer certain
color schemes or designs for websites, for example.  Perhaps there are
people who really, really enjoy looking at a webpage for hours on end
that has a hot pink background and uses lime green Comic Sans font, and
those people are entitled to their opinion, but in general, it's not a
good idea to cater to that select group.

Well, I actually have read up on things like color and design theory, and I like the new UI. I also think you are speaking completely out of your posterior when you compare people who like the new UI with people who adore hot pink webpages using lime green Comic Sans font.

At least you didn't accuse such people of liking Papyrus. That'd be pretty much unforgivable.

[Wissenschaft]

Why are you arguing with Sylvius the Mad with logic? Hes crazy after all, its even in his name.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[syllogi]

Ladybright wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

No offense but why are you playing DAO on a CRT Tv anyways? Wouldn't a good 22" HDTV cost about the same price as an Xbox?

Really though the icons shouldn't be increased on the PC version for people with outdated TVs. That's just not right.

You assume that I bought the Xbox. I share an Xbox with my brother when I am home, and the Xbox itself was a gift. I am a university student. Right now I have neither access to an HDTV nor money for one.

And I never said icons should be increased for people with old TVs. No one else did, either. You are battling a straw man.

TeenZombie wrote...

To me, it looks like it belongs in a flash game.  Yeah, it's subjective
that I don't think it looks good, but if you've read up on things like
color and design theory, and there are reasons why people prefer certain
color schemes or designs for websites, for example.  Perhaps there are
people who really, really enjoy looking at a webpage for hours on end
that has a hot pink background and uses lime green Comic Sans font, and
those people are entitled to their opinion, but in general, it's not a
good idea to cater to that select group.

Well, I actually have read up on things like color and design theory, and I like the new UI. I also think you are speaking completely out of your posterior when you compare people who like the new UI with people who adore hot pink webpages using lime green Comic Sans font.

At least you didn't accuse such people of liking Papyrus. That'd be pretty much unforgivable.

I was using "bad" web design as an example of how "subjective" opinion doesn't mean that much when you have to factor in usability.  I know people love to get offended over nothing on the internet, but please read the whole discussion before freaking out.  It's a UI, not even a love interest, sheesh.  

[tmp7704]

crimzontearz wrote...

yes but in THOSE games you do not control all 5 character, only one...which is the basic difference and why straight bars give you a more detailed and straightforward information. That particular truth you cannot deny

I guess, i just still don't see what the use for this more detailed information would supposed to be -- the only person interested in state of health bars is the team healer (hence why i don't perceive a difference from MMOs here, the experience in this particular role is quite the same) and for the healer the only really important aspect is how close to death people are. And that is done looking at what part of the bar is gone/remaining, not how long it is and whether it's longer/shorter than bar of another guy. So, dunno.

[crimzontearz]

tmp7704 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

yes but in THOSE games you do not control all 5 character, only one...which is the basic difference and why straight bars give you a more detailed and straightforward information. That particular truth you cannot deny

I guess, i just still don't see what the use for this more detailed information would supposed to be -- the only person interested in state of health bars is the team healer (hence why i don't perceive a difference from MMOs here, the experience in this particular role is quite the same) and for the healer the only really important aspect is how close to death people are. And that is done looking at what part of the bar is gone/remaining, not how long it is and whether it's longer/shorter than bar of another guy. So, dunno.

ok then even if this was the ONLY important thing

let's say that we have morrigan and shale with half full health bars in the DAO setting. Tho they visually are the same Shale probably has 200+ XP left and morrigan only 80ish or so (depending on the build) 

so one or two more hits will mean morrigan's death while shale will be able to soak much more. The straight bars give you a more precise set of info as you will know exactly just how much health is left  since the length is proportional to the FULL HP number and not a set wrap-around length

ultimately the devs were just trying to give us a better understanding at a glance

[tmp7704]

crimzontearz wrote...

so one or two more hits will mean morrigan's death while shale will be able to soak much more.

But did the fixed length of health bars in DAO prevent you from realizing exactly that? 

This information was available in tooltip which would appear when mousing over the character's portrait... and it honestly wasn't something that i'd need to be reminded of constantly. It's pretty easy to notice just playing the game and after then, quite hard to forget.

It's not that i particularly dislike what they did, it just really strikes me as a rather pointless change, one that has side-effect of bringing more clutter to the screen when i don't recall the original design being source of complaints in that regard, or any other.

[Ladybright]

TeenZombie wrote...

I was using "bad" web design as an example of how "subjective" opinion doesn't mean that much when you have to factor in usability.  I know people love to get offended over nothing on the internet, but please read the whole discussion before freaking out.  It's a UI, not even a love interest, sheesh.  

The new UI is more useable, imo. I did read the entire thread.

Tastes are subjective in this instance. The devs have done playtesting and useability testing with different UIs, so this one obviously held some edge in that regard. This UI does provide more information more quickly, at the cost of the original DAO aesthetic. Not everyone liked the DAO aesthetic, though.

I'm not actually angry or freaking out. I was just raising my eyebrows since you made out like no one else had any knowledge of design theory. But a blood feud over fonts? That's pretty ridiculous. I probably should have added a smiley.





...I still hate Papyrus, though. *shakes fist at Papyrus* So overused!

Modifié par Ladybright, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[crimzontearz]

tmp7704 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

so one or two more hits will mean morrigan's death while shale will be able to soak much more.

But did the fixed length of health bars in DAO prevent you from realizing exactly that? 

This information was available in tooltip which would appear when mousing over the character's portrait... and it honestly wasn't something that i'd need to be reminded of constantly. It's pretty easy to notice just playing the game and after then, quite hard to forget.

It's not that i particularly dislike what they did, it just really strikes me as a rather pointless change, one that has side-effect of bringing more clutter to the screen when i don't recall the original design being source of complaints in that regard, or any other.

it is not pointless to those who are not as savvy as the hardcore RPG lovers (oh and console players could not mouse over the portraits)

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

crimzontearz wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

so one or two more hits will mean morrigan's death while shale will be able to soak much more.

But did the fixed length of health bars in DAO prevent you from realizing exactly that? 

This information was available in tooltip which would appear when mousing over the character's portrait... and it honestly wasn't something that i'd need to be reminded of constantly. It's pretty easy to notice just playing the game and after then, quite hard to forget.

It's not that i particularly dislike what they did, it just really strikes me as a rather pointless change, one that has side-effect of bringing more clutter to the screen when i don't recall the original design being source of complaints in that regard, or any other.

it is not pointless to those who are not as savvy as the hardcore RPG lovers (oh and console players could not mouse over the portraits)

Its also not all that difficult to realize a TANK is going to be able to take more damage than a squishy mage. I mean seriously, how badly does the current generation need their hands held and everything spelt out for them?

[tmp7704]

Ladybright wrote...

Tastes are subjective in this instance. The devs have done playtesting and useability testing with different UIs, so this one obviously held some edge in that regard.

Maybe Mr.Laidlaw just really likes bars and square portraits.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

No, Sylvius, you're just not getting it. The screen could display more. It has simply been programmed not to, for the sake of showing the UI. The edge of the monitor is an imposition by the physical laws of our universe on when the screen can no longer display content. The UI is just a design decision. The physical laws of our universe allow for the any posssible combination, including one that includes the whole screen.

And your screen could be bigger.  It just doesn't happen to be.

You're drawing the line in an entirely arbitrary place.  Somehow the game's design is mutable, but your monitor is not?  Why?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ryzaki wrote...

No offense but why are you playing DAO on
a CRT Tv anyways? Wouldn't a good 22" HDTV cost about the same price as
an Xbox?

If I were to play DAO (or DA2) on my XBox, I'd play on a CRT.  Because I happen to have a CRT television.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Its also not all that difficult to realize a TANK is going to be able to take more damage than a squishy mage. I mean seriously, how badly does the current generation need their hands held and everything spelt out for them?

It's like you don't even try to read before trying to be self-congratulatory and elitist.

The point is that there is a distinct advantage in knowing exactly how many more hits a character can take, and for some people these ugly blocks that take up half-the screen help with that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

The point is that there is a distinct advantage in knowing exactly how many more hits a character can take, and for some people these ugly blocks that take up half-the screen help with that.

Numbers would work even better.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
And your screen could be bigger.  It just doesn't happen to be.

No, it can't. I would need a new screen for this. It would need to be rebuilt from scratch.

The UI involves actual screen-space that is actively not displaying content.

You're drawing the line in an entirely arbitrary place.  Somehow the game's design is mutable, but your monitor is not?  Why?

The line is not arbitrary at all. It's not ''somehow''. The design is mutable. In fact, mods would make it so. To redesign the screen, I would need all the basic components of it, I would have to dissasemble the screen to its core componets, and then hope to build a bigger screen. In fact, this would be impossible without a factory. And it might be impossible even in principle to actually take a finished screen and make it bigger.

Put another way, finding some similarity between two things does not mean they are relevantly similar, and your insistence that they are so only on the basis of one similar is unjustified.

ETA:

I was a little tired and was hostile. I wanted to apologize for that. I hate being hostile.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Numbers would work even better.

I agree. They would also take up much less space. I was just pointing out there is a reason to prefer the bars.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

The UI involves actual screen-space that is actively not displaying content.

The same is true of the DA2 UI.  It's just that the real estate that is obscured by the UI elements is broken up, and the game action is occluded by them.

In a frame, you still lose some screen space to UI elements (no change there), but the action is not occluded.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The same is true of the DA2 UI.  It's just that the real estate that is obscured by the UI elements is broken up, and the game action is occluded by them.

Yes, the difference is that the DA2 UI does not box out an entire part of the screen. The mini-map is transparent, and while the portrait-bars are obnoxious, having an entire box around the screen would be worse

In a frame, you still lose some screen space to UI elements (no change there), but the action is not occluded.

But it is the loss of the screen space that bothers me, not the fact that some elements are occluded.

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

In Exile wrote...

But it is the loss of the screen space that bothers me, not the fact that some elements are occluded.

*Nods* Same here, one reason why I like the translucent map and hotbar is while still having a UI it gives back some of that screen space.

[slimgrin]

I may get used to certain elements, like the map and enlarged hotbar. I certainly do like the new icons; they are easier to recognize. But placing the portraits in the lower left is a puzzling decision, along with their huge, horizontal status bars. I can think of no advantage to it unless I wanted to play 20 ft away from my monitor.

[soteria]

tmp7704 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

yes but in THOSE games you do not control all 5 character, only one...which is the basic difference and why straight bars give you a more detailed and straightforward information. That particular truth you cannot deny

I guess, i just still don't see what the use for this more detailed information would supposed to be -- the only person interested in state of health bars is the team healer (hence why i don't perceive a difference from MMOs here, the experience in this particular role is quite the same) and for the healer the only really important aspect is how close to death people are. And that is done looking at what part of the bar is gone/remaining, not how long it is and whether it's longer/shorter than bar of another guy. So, dunno.

Actually, as a healer, I wasn't that interested in how close to death people were--I was more interested in how far they were from full health.  I set my UI to show the deficit rather than how much health they had, because that's just more important information when you're selecting heals on the fly and trying to keep everyone topped off without either wasting time or being inefficient.

In Dragon Age, I'm not choosing between an 1.5 second heal for 1500, a 3.5 second heal for 5000, or a heal-over-time for 2500.  You could almost call it binary, since most of the healing spells had about the same effect and cast time.  Instead of choosing which heal to use, you're really choosing whether to heal or not.  All this is to say that I don't think what MMO healers consider relevant and valuable in an interface is worth considering in this discussion.

I do think the bars are an improvement for showing stamina levels.  Things could get murky in Origins when you were dealing with multiple sustains and stamina bonuses from gear during combat.  I like the health bars, too.  It's handy to have a graphical representation of absolute values rather than displaying numbers all the time.  I always thought numbers on a health bar were ugly, even if I felt they were necessary.

[syllogi]

Ladybright wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I was using "bad" web design as an example of how "subjective" opinion doesn't mean that much when you have to factor in usability.  I know people love to get offended over nothing on the internet, but please read the whole discussion before freaking out.  It's a UI, not even a love interest, sheesh.  

The new UI is more useable, imo. I did read the entire thread.

Tastes are subjective in this instance. The devs have done playtesting and useability testing with different UIs, so this one obviously held some edge in that regard. This UI does provide more information more quickly, at the cost of the original DAO aesthetic. Not everyone liked the DAO aesthetic, though.

I'm not actually angry or freaking out. I was just raising my eyebrows since you made out like no one else had any knowledge of design theory. But a blood feud over fonts? That's pretty ridiculous. I probably should have added a smiley.



...I still hate Papyrus, though. *shakes fist at Papyrus* So overused!

No worries then, your response just seemed harsh for what I felt was an abstract conversation about whether subjective opinion matters in design.

And I'm sure they're playtesting this new UI, but concerns like mine, about being able to see the translucent map, even if it's taking up more room on the screen, is something I really hope is addressed, and may not be something that has been brought up by playtesters who don't have terrible eyesight.

The placement of the health bars is another area where personal preference comes into play, but I'm pretty sure, as someone who has messed with custom UIs in games like World of Warcraft enough, that sticking them in the lower corner like that will be distracting, and will block areas that will more likely contain action than the upper right hand corner.  If I'm healing a raid group, having health bars take up most of the screen is okay.  When I'm controlling a group of four characters in a single player game, however, I need to see what is going on at all times.  Having the top down view of the combat area would have helped, despite the new obtrusive UI...but we don't get that view anymore, so we need that screen real estate.

As I said before, we have not heard the last word on whether this current UI is set in stone.  There's no harm in voicing our concerns, as long as we're being constructive and pointing out what could be done to help make it better.

[tishyw]

I'm not a big fan of the new UI, the heath and stamina/mana bars take up far to much of the screen for my tastes, and I really don't like the square portaits either. To me it just looks bland and ugly.
I liked the curly gold work and the golden edges of the old interface, it felt more in tune with the world that the game is set in. The new interface looks far to modern for a Medieval fantasy game, and doesn't feel right.

I've been trying to think of why they changed the interface, and the only reason I can come up with is that the huge health bars, and the descriptions of the action that the character is performing are there to make it easier to play as an action RPG. And while they don't detract from tactical game play, I feel that the ugly UI does detracts from the game overall.

Modifié par tishyw, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Maria Caliban]

kingjezza wrote...

People honestly think this looks better than filaminstrel's screenie or say this...



The new GUI looks horrendous and like it was created in about 30 seconds by the work experience kid!

In the DA:O screen shot, which character has the most amount of HP? During combat, if one character has 60% of their HP and another has 45%, who has the larger number of hit points?

You can talk about how pretty the circles are but they lack when it comes to a basic function.