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Has friendly fire been removed?


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#251
TucoBenedicto

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FedericoV wrote...

Btw, mana is there to avoid blasting fireballs and blizzard no stop all over the place.

Uhm no, mana (and cooldowns) are there just to avoid using them too often in a fight.

Also, protection gear/items usually if well balanced have a tradeoff in other stats.
And to be honest I can't really remember, neither in DAO or in older Infinity engine games, enough gear with protection bonus to give you full immunity to some spells for your men.
Maybe you are talking about JRPGs, but they are almost an entirely different genre.

Modifié par TucoBenedicto, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .


#252
In Exile

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Vaeliorin wrote...
You're missing the point of my analogy, however.  I'm simply claiming that there's no reason not to include advanced options that might not necessarily be something that everyone should be changing. 


That isn't the counter argument. The counter argument is that we should only include options where people have a good idea of what they're changing. If it becomes unpredictable, it can wreck games.

The distinction between FF toggles and the scenarios you gave is a baseline of experience. Someone who even considers messing with the more core architecture of the game already has the knowledge and skill to predict, to some extent, what these actions may or may not do.

It is also a different kind of modification that a UI (and therefore developer) sanctioned one. It involves a different expectation of guaranteed performance.

I personally don't care if hard with FF is somehow easier than normal with FF (though I doubt such a thing would occur) because I feel that if people want to mess around with the advanced options, they always do so at their own risk. 


Except that people won't feel this way. And as a designer, your goal is to maximize your sales and reception of your game, not stick out your tongue and tell people what they are responsible for.

Bioware has a practical problem as a designer. If you want to say you think that problem is irrelevant as should be ignored - that's your perrogative. This isn't a constraint you can handwave away.

But it would be like arguing that any popular feature should be removed for an unpopular one, ultimately because you don't care if the game sells or not.

The point is to give people who are more experienced with the system/comfortable messing around with it options that aren't necessarily options that less experienced users should be playing around with.  To be fair, you can already (on PC) mess around with the friendly fire options as much as you want, it's simply a pain in the butt to do so.  I'd like to be able to do it without having it be such a pain in the butt, and while at it, allow that functionality to the console users as well.


The problem is that you have to make it clear that this is a feature for experts. On DA:O PC, you have to legitimately attempt to reprogram the game. Once you have a developer sanctioned option to do something, it has to be stable.

Let me put it this way: developers could include bugged semi-finished content into the game and then just label it ''play at your own risk''.

The problem with that is that players have an expectation that were such content included, it would work. The likely reaction is not 'Gee, thanks Bioware for more options!'' but rather''WTF Bioware you wrecked my game''.

As I mentioned above, I don't think such a thing is relevant in what would be labeled as an advanced user option.  If people who aren't advanced users mess with something labeled as being for advanced users, and as a result cause themselves some grief, they have noone but themselves to blame (though, of course, knowing our society they will, in fact, blame everyone except themselves.)


A toggle is not something for advanced users. It's a button that changes one feature. It's like saying enabling film grain is for ''advanced users''.

Consumers won't buy that argument. This is a realistic constraint on the developers.

#253
In Exile

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TucoBenedicto wrote...
Uhm no, mana (and cooldowns) are there just to avoid using them too often in a fight.

Also, protection gear/items usually if well balanced have a tradeoff in other stats.
And to be honest I can't really remember, neither in DAO or in older Infinity engine games, enough gear with protection bonus to give you full immunity to some spells for your men.
Maybe you are talking about JRPGs, but they are almost an entirely different genre.


In DA:O you can get 100% spell immunity. If you roll a tank + 3 mages, you can use your tank to draw aggro and then spam AoEs in the area indiscriminantly and not damage your tank.

#254
FedericoV

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TucoBenedicto wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Btw, mana is there to avoid blasting fireballs and blizzard no stop all over the place.

Uhm no, mana (and cooldowns) are there just to avoid using them too often in a fight.

Also, protection gear/items usually if well balanced have a tradeoff in other stats.
And to be honest I can't really remember, neither in DAO or in older Infinity engine games, enough gear with protection bonus to give you full immunity to some spells for your men.
Maybe you are talking about JRPGs, but they are almost an entirely different genre.


Then check your sources ;). I'm replaying BG2 and my charachter is level 11 and has allready 75% fire protection + 25% Ice and electricity. Without spell or anything, just passive protection from items. Then, for very difficult fights, I just need some elemental protection scrolls and the trick is done. While for the others fight I just need to use druids/clerical protection spells (not to talk about potions and such).

Modifié par FedericoV, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:10 .


#255
Perfect-Kenshin

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The whole debate should have ended with TucoBenedicto's comment. FF has already been tested on Nightmare difficulty and the game functions just fine. That's right, on the hardest difficulty setting. Why then are people concluding that there's no way to know what will happen should FF be included on easier difficulties? That it will somehow be impossible when it's very well possible on the highest difficulty setting? All in all, the decision not to have a toggle is just utter nonsense.

#256
Ziggeh

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Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

FF has already been tested on Nightmare difficulty and the game functions just fine. That's right, on the hardest difficulty setting. Why then are people concluding that there's no way to know what will happen should FF be included on easier difficulties? That it will somehow be impossible when it's very well possible on the
highest difficulty setting?

I wonder if it has any different properties at all. If the damage you take has been balanced differently. You know, to alter the difficulty.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
All in all, the decision not to have a toggle is just utter nonsense.

The fact that it "works" on a setting that has been balanced with it in mind is unrelated to the effect it would have on those that have not.

I thought we'd moved on from "it would have no effect on balance" to the equally bizarre "they don't need to balance the game".

#257
Sylvius the Mad

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jack_f wrote...

Will the classes be as imbalanced as they were in DAO, leading to greatly varying difficulty depending on who was on your team, or will at least some attempt be made to balance the game this time around?

I hope not.

In fact, I hope that different sections of the game reward different party constructions.  Let there be a dungeon that is nigh impossible without 2 mages, but then let there be another than becomes trivial if you bring 3 warriors.

#258
Sylvius the Mad

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

I thought we'd moved on from "it would have no effect on balance" to the equally bizarre "they don't need to balance the game".

They only need to balance the game so finely because they're scaling content to the party's (or PC's) level, and as such they expect that balancing to have a consistent effect.

If they didn't include balancing, then this would be a far lesser concern.

#259
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Well, regarding the different difficulties needing to be specifically balanced for FF: Do the encounters differ depending on difficulty? Are the enemies fewer in number but much more powerful with more complex tactics on Nightmare, compared to hordes of weaker enemies capable of being AOE'd with impunity on Easy mode? Or do the different modes amount to a change of stat modifiers for the enemies?

IF the enemies are just statistically more powerful in Nightmare, I can't imagine what sort of "unexpected behavior" would arise from playing the lower difficulties with FF, since they've already basically playtested it by virtue of playtesting Nightmare with FF, except with tougher enemies. And if they simply put in Easy, Normal, and Hard mode's description, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned OFF," and in Nightmare's, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned ON," that ought to be more than adequate an explanation for those people who might wonder why Easy mode isn't so Easy with FF on.

Modifié par filaminstrel, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:08 .


#260
Beerfish

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Balancing games in which you start at a low level and end up at a high level is very very very difficult. There isn't one game I've ever played including p&p DnD that was 'balanced' over a great number of levels.



If a game is restricted to a narrow range of levels it makes it a bit easier. (See BG1 with it's level cap).

#261
Snoteye

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It seems to me this framed narrative would have been a unique chance to attempt fixed "leveling." I wouldn't mind doing away with XP altogether, in favour of other rewards.

#262
Xewaka

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Snoteye wrote...

It seems to me this framed narrative would have been a unique chance to attempt fixed "leveling." I wouldn't mind doing away with XP altogether, in favour of other rewards.


Picking up skill books and trainers during gameplay (as quest rewards or during exploration) and then leveling up only from timeskip to timeskip would make sense to me. I also think you posted in the wrong thread.

To keep on topic: I can't agree with the team decision on where to apply the FF. The moment full party control is expected from the player (Hard difficulty) is the moment Friendly Fire should be on.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .


#263
Ziggeh

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filaminstrel wrote...

And if they simply put in Easy, Normal, and Hard mode's description, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned OFF," and in Nightmare's, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned ON," that ought to be more than adequate an explanation for those people who might wonder why Easy mode isn't so Easy with FF on.

That'd work, indeed, a toggle would if it were labeled adequately and playtested to ensure normal+ff isn't harder than hard-ff. Trouble being, twice the work.

#264
hexaligned

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I can't really wrap my brain around how Bio's play testers or devs can think the game has any sort of challenge to it when you can just stand there mindlessly spamming aoe spells over top your party. (especially with DAO's infinite resource system, which hopefully got kicked to the gutter, but I won't start my rant on that) It completely removes the need for any tactics or strategy whatsoever. It seems like FF should only be disabled for easy mode, and the actual game encounter's should have been balanced around it being enabled.




#265
Guest_Puddi III_*

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

And if they simply put in Easy, Normal, and Hard mode's description, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned OFF," and in Nightmare's, "balanced for Friendly Fire turned ON," that ought to be more than adequate an explanation for those people who might wonder why Easy mode isn't so Easy with FF on.

That'd work, indeed, a toggle would if it were labeled adequately and playtested to ensure normal+ff isn't harder than hard-ff. Trouble being, twice the work.


Why do they have to ensure normal+ff isn't harder than hard-ff? FF implies greater difficulty.

#266
Xewaka

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relhart wrote...

I can't really wrap my brain around how Bio's play testers or devs can think the game has any sort of challenge to it when you can just stand there mindlessly spamming aoe spells over top your party. (especially with DAO's infinite resource system, which hopefully got kicked to the gutter, but I won't start my rant on that) It completely removes the need for any tactics or strategy whatsoever. It seems like FF should only be disabled for easy mode, and the actual game encounter's should have been balanced around it being enabled.


I agree on that. But keep in mind that the gameplay this time around isn't being balanced exclusively for a specific platform, and Bioware believes they're targeting the lowest common denominator by removing Friendly Fire.

#267
Snoteye

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Xewaka wrote...

I also think you posted in the wrong thread.

It was an off-hand comment to Beerfish's post.


ziggehunderslash wrote...

That'd work, indeed, a toggle would if it were labeled adequately and playtested to ensure normal+ff isn't harder than hard-ff. Trouble being, twice the work.

There is absolutely no requirement that "normal+ff" must be easier than "hard-ff" in order to allow a separate setting for friendly fire, provided that the game (clearly) states how the game is balanced. In theory, hardcoded difficulties are simply an abstraction for a much broader selection of settings that could easily be made available to the end user as long as the game clearly recommends certain settings to match certain expectations.

#268
Ziggeh

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Snoteye wrote...
There is absolutely no requirement that "normal+ff" must be easier than "hard-ff" in order to allow a separate setting for friendly fire, provided that the game (clearly) states how the game is balanced. In theory, hardcoded difficulties are simply an abstraction for a much broader selection of settings that could easily be made available to the end user as long as the game clearly recommends certain settings to match certain expectations.

I find I agree. I still feel it would be an information problem, or rather a misinformation on, but that's a fairly minor quibble.

#269
Guest_Sir Jools_*

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Well, FF toggle should just be presented as an additional challenge, and that would also justify normal+FF being harder than hard-FF. Also, they're spoiling the game for quite a few people who don't feel like playing the game on nightmare, but would play it on normal with FF on, for realism or whatever reason.



All in all, I believe that Bioware thinks their average customer must be extremely thick or mentally challenged. Not only FF is off apart from Nightmare mode, but not even the toggle, in case someone's character gets hurt...



What next? Godmode by default?



I feel insulted.

#270
Dorian the Monk of Sune

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Xewaka wrote...


I agree on that. But keep in mind that the gameplay this time around isn't being balanced exclusively for a specific platform, and Bioware believes they're targeting the lowest common denominator by removing Friendly Fire.



It isnt the platform it is the genre. Console platformers, shooters and sports games are usually much tougher than their RPGs. Even the platformers that target kids are harder than the typicle RPG.

#271
Xewaka

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Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

It isnt the platform it is the genre. Console platformers, shooters and sports games are usually much tougher than their RPGs. Even the platformers that target kids are harder than the typicle RPG.


I wouldn't blame the genre. Baldur's Gate still gives me some pause these days.

#272
crimzontearz

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Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

Xewaka wrote...


I agree on that. But keep in mind that the gameplay this time around isn't being balanced exclusively for a specific platform, and Bioware believes they're targeting the lowest common denominator by removing Friendly Fire.



It isnt the platform it is the genre. Console platformers, shooters and sports games are usually much tougher than their RPGs. Even the platformers that target kids are harder than the typicle RPG.


I find myself in agreement to a point

Take ME2, which was much more of a shooter than ME1. ME2's insanity mode is a LOT harder than ME1s (especially in NG+) because of it's more pronounced shooter mechanics.

#273
Qset

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[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Akka le Vil wrote...
Why can't it simply be a toggle ?[/quote]

Because it has a profound effect on the difficulty. Hence it being attached to the difficulty.

Or that, anyhow, is what I assume. Attaching things to toggles is great, but if someone flips that on and doesn't know that it will suddenly make their "Easy" game not quite so Easy anymore... well, that wouldn't be good.[/quote]
[/quote]

This game still has an 18 rating doesn't it?

#274
crimzontearz

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[quote]Qset wrote...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Akka le Vil wrote...
Why can't it simply be a toggle ?[/quote]

Because it has a profound effect on the difficulty. Hence it being attached to the difficulty.

Or that, anyhow, is what I assume. Attaching things to toggles is great, but if someone flips that on and doesn't know that it will suddenly make their "Easy" game not quite so Easy anymore... well, that wouldn't be good.[/quote]
[/quote]

This game still has an 18 rating doesn't it?[/quote]

17 in the US but it is not a law.....yet

#275
Qset

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FedericoV wrote...

Peter Thomas wrote...

Friendly fire is only on Nightmare. There were discussions on it months ago (including toggles, having it not be toggle-able in certain modes, and even locked difficulty levels) and that was the decision that was reached.

For reference, here are our current goals for difficulty balance:

Casual - Able to be beaten playing a single character sub-optimally, with the rest of the party using default AI tactics.

Normal - Able to be beaten playing a single character optimally, with the rest of the party using default AI tactics.

Hard - Able to be beaten playing the entire party sub-optimally, either controlling directly or using custom AI tactics.

Nightmare - Able to be beaten playing the entire party optimally, either controlling directly or using custom AI tactics. Friendly fire active.


But I'm a little bit worried by the fact that you are balancing the difficulty in the game thinking that the large majority of your players will play the game sub-optimally. If someone can finish the game on hard, never learning how to control the party optimally, where is the challenge?

Well, I think that I will play the game on Nightmare and see if it's too punitive then.


I agree with your worry here FedericoV although from reading your other posts on this I do have a different opinion to you on FF but thats separate.

I will be starting on Nightmare as well it seems.